This is major

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html The New York Attorney General's office has decided that ADA does cover private companies and that those companies must adhere to the WCAG Guidelines (not 508). Both Ramada and Priceline were investigated and have agreed to bring their sites up to speed.  Not only that, but they both agreed to cover the costs of the investigations. "The Attorney General opined that the Americans With Disabilities Act requires that private web sites be accessible to blind and visually impaired Internet users. The ADA generally dictates that all "places of public accommodation" and all "goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations" of places of public accommodation, must be made accessible to disabled citizens, absent undue hardship. New York law provides similar civil rights protections." I know I am a nag on Accessibility, but trust me, its going to happen and the sooner all of you start getting into it, the better for all of our companies. This is the tip of the iceberg. Sandy

I know, I know, sect 508 of the AWDA has a very good reason for existing.......i know i shouldn't hate it....but..... I HATE SECTION 508!!!!! ok, i feel better :)   http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html   <snip>

Why do you hate it? If its retrofitting its a pain, but if you start designing a web site with accessibility in mind from the outset its not that bad.   _____ Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:31 PM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: This is major I know, I know, sect 508 of the AWDA has a very good reason for existing.......i know i shouldn't hate it....but..... I HATE SECTION 508!!!!! ok, i feel better :)   http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html   <snip>   _____  

I dunno I don't like this Idea.  I would rather like set up ONE page for them, telling them to call a number and they will be taken care of through the phone. I mean, what if we had to build the site for dyslexics?  It's a disability right?   http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html   The New York Attorney General's office has decided that ADA does cover   private companies and that those companies must adhere to the WCAG   Guidelines (not 508). Both Ramada and Priceline were investigated and have   agreed to bring their sites up to speed.  Not only that, but they both   agreed to cover the costs of the investigations.   "The Attorney General opined that the Americans With Disabilities Act   requires that private web sites be accessible to blind and visually impaired   Internet users. The ADA generally dictates that all "places of public   accommodation" and all "goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages,   or accommodations" of places of public accommodation, must be made   accessible to disabled citizens, absent undue hardship. New York law   provides similar civil rights protections."   I know I am a nag on Accessibility, but trust me, its going to happen and   the sooner all of you start getting into it, the better for all of our   companies. This is the tip of the iceberg.   Sandy

A lot of dyslexics actually use a speech browser like IBM Home page reader to read the text to them as they look at it.  So if you design for one screen reader, you actually incorporate both disabilities (blind and dyslexia). also, its much easier to design a web site to accomodate these users than it is to staff a help desk, in the end it is much more cost effective. Next objection?   _____ Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:25 PM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: This is major I dunno I don't like this Idea.  I would rather like set up ONE page for them, telling them to call a number and they will be taken care of through the phone. I mean, what if we had to build the site for dyslexics?  It's a disability right? <http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=40>;  

No, the staff help desk is there already.  huge companies like Priceline and stuff have customer service.  Those guys are already there to help blind people!   A lot of dyslexics actually use a speech browser like IBM Home page reader   to read the text to them as they look at it.  So if you design for one   screen reader, you actually incorporate both disabilities (blind and   dyslexia).   also, its much easier to design a web site to accomodate these users than it   is to staff a help desk, in the end it is much more cost effective.   Next objection?     _____   Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:25 PM   To: CF-Community   Subject: Re: This is major   I dunno I don't like this Idea.  I would rather like set up ONE page for   them, telling them to call a number and they will be taken care of through   the phone.   I mean, what if we had to build the site for dyslexics?  It's a disability   right?   <http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=40>;

Its major in new york :> Who knows if the rest of the states will take that as a precedent or not. William Wheatley Coldfusion Guru   http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html   The New York Attorney General's office has decided that ADA does cover   private companies and that those companies must adhere to the WCAG   Guidelines (not 508). Both Ramada and Priceline were investigated and have   agreed to bring their sites up to speed.  Not only that, but they both   agreed to cover the costs of the investigations.   "The Attorney General opined that the Americans With Disabilities Act   requires that private web sites be accessible to blind and visually impaired   Internet users. The ADA generally dictates that all "places of public   accommodation" and all "goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages,   or accommodations" of places of public accommodation, must be made   accessible to disabled citizens, absent undue hardship. New York law   provides similar civil rights protections."   I know I am a nag on Accessibility, but trust me, its going to happen and   the sooner all of you start getting into it, the better for all of our   companies. This is the tip of the iceberg.   Sandy

Ramada is a delaware corp, with its corporate offices in NY, Priceline's corporate offices are in CT.  Which still means major repercussions.  If you have users based in New York, there is precedent.   _____ Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:42 PM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: This is major Its major in new york :> Who knows if the rest of the states will take that as a precedent or not. William Wheatley Coldfusion Guru   http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html   The New York Attorney General's office has decided that ADA does cover   private companies and that those companies must adhere to the WCAG   Guidelines (not 508). Both Ramada and Priceline were investigated and have   agreed to bring their sites up to speed.  Not only that, but they both   agreed to cover the costs of the investigations.   "The Attorney General opined that the Americans With Disabilities Act   requires that private web sites be accessible to blind and visually impaired   Internet users. The ADA generally dictates that all "places of public   accommodation" and all "goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages,   or accommodations" of places of public accommodation, must be made   accessible to disabled citizens, absent undue hardship. New York law   provides similar civil rights protections."   I know I am a nag on Accessibility, but trust me, its going to happen and   the sooner all of you start getting into it, the better for all of our   companies. This is the tip of the iceberg.   Sandy   _____  

Indeed it was bound to spill over to the private sector. While you point out that the reparations will conform to WCAG and not 508, it appears that the specific implementation is based on a settlement not a ruling. A subtle distinction that may or may not be pertinent. -Kevin On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:15:05 -0400, Sandy Clark <sllists@shayna.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

At 15:41 8/19/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Its major in new york :> There are other parts of the US that matter? NY = NY, NJ, parts of CT

lol New york new smork :P William Wheatley Coldfusion Guru   At 15:41 8/19/2004 -0400, you wrote:   >Its major in new york :>   There are other parts of the US that matter?   NY = NY, NJ, parts of CT

Some clarification from an expert witness in the case. "The press release should remind businesses in the US once again that accessible web design should be a priority for ADA Title III entities who use the web for commerce. " Title III Entities are: Public accommodations (i.e., private entities that own, operate, lease, or lease to places of public accommodation), Commercial facilities, and Private entities that offer certain examinations and courses related to educational and occupational certification. Places of public accommodation include over five million private establishments, such as restaurants, hotels, theaters, convention centers, retail stores, shopping centers, dry cleaners, laundromats, pharmacies, doctors' offices, hospitals, museums, libraries, parks, zoos, amusement parks, private schools, day care centers, health spas, and bowling alleys. Commercial facilities are nonresidential facilities, including office buildings, factories, and warehouses, whose operations affect commerce. Entities controlled by religious organizations, including places of worship, are not covered. Private clubs are not covered, except to the extent that the facilities of the private club are made available to customers or patrons of a place of public accommodation. State and local governments are not covered by the title III regulation, but rather by the Department of Justice's title II regulation. Full coverage of Title III of the ADA can be found here. http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/t3hilght.htm Basically if your company participates in commerce on the web then you come under this.  For the intranets, its covered under accomodating employees with disabilities under fair hiring practices.   _____ Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:15 PM To: CF-Community Subject: This is major http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html The New York Attorney General's office has decided that ADA does cover private companies and that those companies must adhere to the WCAG Guidelines (not 508). Both Ramada and Priceline were investigated and have agreed to bring their sites up to speed.  Not only that, but they both agreed to cover the costs of the investigations. "The Attorney General opined that the Americans With Disabilities Act requires that private web sites be accessible to blind and visually impaired Internet users. The ADA generally dictates that all "places of public accommodation" and all "goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations" of places of public accommodation, must be made accessible to disabled citizens, absent undue hardship. New York law provides similar civil rights protections." I know I am a nag on Accessibility, but trust me, its going to happen and the sooner all of you start getting into it, the better for all of our companies. This is the tip of the iceberg. Sandy   _____  

Sandy, want to go into business :-) You teach accessibility and I will count the money and distribute it evenly between us. Rock solid business venture if you ask me :-) Michael T. Tangorre ________________________________   Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:15 PM   To: CF-Community   Subject: This is major         http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html      The New York Attorney General's office has decided that ADA does cover   private companies and that those companies must adhere to the WCAG   Guidelines (not 508). Both Ramada and Priceline were investigated and have   agreed to bring their sites up to speed.  Not only that, but they both   agreed to cover the costs of the investigations.      "The Attorney General opined that the Americans With Disabilities Act   requires that private web sites be accessible to blind and visually impaired   Internet users. The ADA generally dictates that all "places of public   accommodation" and all "goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages,   or accommodations" of places of public accommodation, must be made   accessible to disabled citizens, absent undue hardship. New York law   provides similar civil rights protections."      I know I am a nag on Accessibility, but trust me, its going to happen and   the sooner all of you start getting into it, the better for all of our   companies. This is the tip of the iceberg.      Sandy ________________________________   

#Reverse()#   I dunno I don't like this Idea.  I would rather like set up ONE page for them, telling them to call a number and they will be taken care of through the phone.      I mean, what if we had to build the site for dyslexics?  It's a disability right?      

Sandy, What do you recommend for someone who wants to make sure their sites comply? Book? Website? Your courses? :-) I guess I have always worked on internal things where it was not an issue but as I do more and more side work, I'd like to give a go at making the sites as accessible as possible. Michael T. Tangorre ________________________________   Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:32 PM   To: CF-Community   Subject: RE: This is major         Why do you hate it?         If its retrofitting its a pain, but if you start designing a web site with   accessibility in mind from the outset its not that bad.        _____   Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:31 PM   To: CF-Community   Subject: Re: This is major      I know, I know, sect 508 of the AWDA has a very good reason for   existing.......i know i shouldn't hate it....but.....      I HATE SECTION 508!!!!!      ok, i feel better :)       To: CF-Community     Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 2:15 PM     Subject: This is major        http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html        <snip>     _____ ________________________________   

One of the best books is "Creating Accessible Web sites" by Jim Thatcher. My blog is a good place to go for links.  Most of the information is scattered which is why I am trying to create a series of articles covering each of the 508 and WCAG guidelines and how to apply them.  Strangely enough my interest in CSS comes from the recommendation that accessibility is easier when content and presentation are separate.   _____ Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:44 PM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: This is major Sandy, What do you recommend for someone who wants to make sure their sites comply? Book? Website? Your courses? :-) I guess I have always worked on internal things where it was not an issue but as I do more and more side work, I'd like to give a go at making the sites as accessible as possible. Michael T. Tangorre ________________________________ Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:32 PM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: This is major Why do you hate it? If its retrofitting its a pain, but if you start designing a web site with accessibility in mind from the outset its not that bad.   _____ Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:31 PM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: This is major I know, I know, sect 508 of the AWDA has a very good reason for existing.......i know i shouldn't hate it....but..... I HATE SECTION 508!!!!! ok, i feel better :)   http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html   <snip>   _____ ________________________________   _____  

Whats the link to your blog? William Wheatley Coldfusion Guru   One of the best books is "Creating Accessible Web sites" by Jim Thatcher.   My blog is a good place to go for links.  Most of the information is   scattered which is why I am trying to create a series of articles covering   each of the 508 and WCAG guidelines and how to apply them.  Strangely enough   my interest in CSS comes from the recommendation that accessibility is   easier when content and presentation are separate.     _____   Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:44 PM   To: CF-Community   Subject: RE: This is major   Sandy,   What do you recommend for someone who wants to make sure their sites   comply? Book? Website? Your courses? :-) I guess I have always worked on   internal things where it was not an issue but as I do more and more side   work, I'd like to give a go at making the sites as accessible as   possible.   Michael T. Tangorre   ________________________________   Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:32 PM   To: CF-Community   Subject: RE: This is major   Why do you hate it?   If its retrofitting its a pain, but if you start designing a web   site with   accessibility in mind from the outset its not that bad.     _____   Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:31 PM   To: CF-Community   Subject: Re: This is major   I know, I know, sect 508 of the AWDA has a very good reason for   existing.......i know i shouldn't hate it....but.....   I HATE SECTION 508!!!!!   ok, i feel better :)     http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html     <snip>     _____   ________________________________     _____

http://www.shayna.com/blog   _____ Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:57 PM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: This is major Whats the link to your blog? William Wheatley Coldfusion Guru   One of the best books is "Creating Accessible Web sites" by Jim Thatcher.   My blog is a good place to go for links.  Most of the information is   scattered which is why I am trying to create a series of articles covering   each of the 508 and WCAG guidelines and how to apply them.  Strangely enough   my interest in CSS comes from the recommendation that accessibility is   easier when content and presentation are separate.     _____   Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:44 PM   To: CF-Community   Subject: RE: This is major   Sandy,   What do you recommend for someone who wants to make sure their sites   comply? Book? Website? Your courses? :-) I guess I have always worked on   internal things where it was not an issue but as I do more and more side   work, I'd like to give a go at making the sites as accessible as   possible.   Michael T. Tangorre   ________________________________   Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:32 PM   To: CF-Community   Subject: RE: This is major   Why do you hate it?   If its retrofitting its a pain, but if you start designing a web   site with   accessibility in mind from the outset its not that bad.     _____   Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:31 PM   To: CF-Community   Subject: Re: This is major   I know, I know, sect 508 of the AWDA has a very good reason for   existing.......i know i shouldn't hate it....but.....   I HATE SECTION 508!!!!!   ok, i feel better :)     http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html     <snip>     _____   ________________________________     _____   _____  

Actually, in some cases you have to be more concerned with internal sites than external. Such as laws that require employers to accomodate employees with disabilities. -Kevin On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:43:43 -0400, Tangorre, Michael <tangorrem@abacustech.com> wrote: > Sandy, > > What do you recommend for someone who wants to make sure their sites > comply? Book? Website? Your courses? :-) I guess I have always worked on > internal things where it was not an issue but as I do more and more side > work, I'd like to give a go at making the sites as accessible as > possible.

> Actually, in some cases you have to be more concerned with internal > sites than external. Such as laws that require employers to accomodate > employees with disabilities. Exactly what I was going to say. If your intranet is not accessible you could be asking for some serious problems. just to play devils advocate.... >also, its much easier to design a web site to accomodate these users than it >is to staff a help desk, in the end it is much more cost effective. Design a website maybe BUT It is not much easier to re-design a website than to staff a help desk. I don't staff the help desk anyways so why would i care. More cost effective probably. Adam H

Just to play a bit of a devil here, assuming that the number is available for these people, how would you disseminate it?  On your non accessible web site? Design a website maybe BUT It is not much easier to re-design a website than to staff a help desk. I don't staff the help desk anyways so why would i care. More cost effective probably.   

*falls into trap* I would make that part of the site accessible ;) Honestly though even if I did give out a phone number I highly doubt our company would be able to accommodate a phone call from a deaf person. Adam H On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:43:49 -0400, Sandy Clark <sllists@shayna.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Tangorre, Michael wrote: > > What do you recommend for someone who wants to make sure their sites > comply? Get backup from your boss. If he thinks there is no problem, ask your boss to do the following in his Windows: "Start", "Run", "narrator.exe", "OK", then turn of the monitor and try to make sense of the website. Jochem

This is interesting. I didn't know there was a "narrator" built in. But, it looks like it only reads links. (I tried our site and Shayna's blog site.) Is that how it's supposed to function? On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:16:21 -0400, Jochem van Dieten  wrote: > "Start", "Run", "narrator.exe", "OK", then turn of the monitor and try to make sense of the website.

Deanna Schneider wrote: > This is interesting. I didn't know there was a "narrator" built in. > But, it looks like it only reads links. (I tried our site and > Shayna's blog site.) Is that how it's supposed to function? I have no idea how it is supposed to function. I do know that before Windows 2000 contained this piece of junk disabled people would often get a real screenreader subsidized from the local government or insurance, but now this inferior piece of crap is included they don't. Jochem

Huh. Well, that sucks, since it seems to be rather disfunctional. > I do know that before Windows 2000 contained this piece of junk disabled people would often get a real screenreader subsidized from the local government or insurance, but now this inferior piece of crap is included they don't.

I couldn't get it to do much either. For a free speech browser (that isn't that great, but is better than nothing) try pwWebSpeak http://www.soundlinks.com/pwgen.htm   _____ Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 8:22 AM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: This is major This is interesting. I didn't know there was a "narrator" built in. But, it looks like it only reads links. (I tried our site and Shayna's blog site.) Is that how it's supposed to function? On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:16:21 -0400, Jochem van Dieten  wrote: > "Start", "Run", "narrator.exe", "OK", then turn of the monitor and try to make sense of the website.   _____  

That would start with our policies and procedures; which currently do not talk about the internal web applications needing to be accessible in detail. Good point though. Michael T. Tangorre   Actually, in some cases you have to be more concerned with internal   sites than external. Such as laws that require employers to accomodate   employees with disabilities.      -Kevin   

Sandy, None of the computers here at work have sound cards. Is there a "screen reader" that will spit out the text a normal screen reader would have read aloud if I had a speaker, to I can see what our site would "sound" like? Thanks Jerry Johnson

IBM Homepage reader shows what is being read.  I tend to use that at conferences and things so that sighted people can "see" what blind people hear. It runs around $100 which considering that Jaws is about 1200, is quite a bargain. Sandy, None of the computers here at work have sound cards. Is there a "screen reader" that will spit out the text a normal screen reader would have read aloud if I had a speaker, to I can see what our site would "sound" like? Thanks Jerry Johnson   _____  

ohh "sighted" pc jargon is making my stomach hurt lol William Wheatley Coldfusion Guru   IBM Homepage reader shows what is being read.  I tend to use that at   conferences and things so that sighted people can "see" what blind people   hear.   It runs around $100 which considering that Jaws is about 1200, is quite a   bargain.   Sandy,   None of the computers here at work have sound cards.   Is there a "screen reader" that will spit out the text a normal screen   reader would have read aloud if I had a speaker, to I can see what our site   would "sound" like?   Thanks   Jerry Johnson     _____

dead dead dead ...! :-) but the email is info@soundlinks.com. >For a free speech browser (that isn't that great, but is better than >nothing) try pwWebSpeak http://www.soundlinks.com/pwgen.htm Outbound email scanned for viruses. (e230)

oops, not dead, just down for a minute! :-) >I couldn't get it to do much either. > >For a free speech browser (that isn't that great, but is better than >nothing) try pwWebSpeak http://www.soundlinks.com/pwgen.htm Outbound email scanned for viruses. (e230)