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New Hampshire man arrested for firing gun into ground while catching suspected burglar

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Neighbour's house not your own.
** Private **
02/22/12 02:53 P
"While yes he was robbed"
** Private **
02/24/12 09:43 A
Squirrels.
** Private **
02/24/12 11:24 A
> Squirrels.
** Private **
02/24/12 11:29 A
Oh, they will. They will.
** Private **
02/24/12 11:31 A
Do spoons make people fat?
** Private **
02/27/12 09:27 A
If you eat a lot of them, yes.
** Private **
02/27/12 09:53 A
Well...Scott is an NRA parrot...
** Private **
02/27/12 04:14 P
I don't believe that in the slightest.
** Private **
02/27/12 04:14 P
Thanx for looking out!
** Private **
02/27/12 04:41 P
I never said handguns == cars.
** Private **
02/28/12 11:20 A
> I never said handguns == cars.
** Private **
02/28/12 11:26 A
Obviously you never saw the movie Christine.
** Private **
02/28/12 11:28 A
<quote>
** Private **
02/28/12 07:21 P
Intent is everything
** Private **
02/28/12 09:38 P
Should we just start calling you Scarecrow?
** Private **
02/27/12 04:24 P
http://vpc.org/press/1110gundeath.htm
** Private **
02/27/12 11:32 A
This made me laugh...:-)
** Private **
02/27/12 02:11 P
they serve poutine in a bowl in Ontario??
** Private **
02/27/12 09:37 P
And really bad cholesterol LOL
** Private **
02/27/12 02:53 P
ZOMBIES!!!
** Private **
02/22/12 03:58 P
This is all the info they have right now.
** Private **
02/27/12 08:50 A
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** Private **
02/22/2012 02:27 PM

New Hampshire man arrested for firing gun into ground while catching suspected burglar A New Hampshire man who fired his handgun into the ground to scare an alleged burglar he caught crawling out of a neighbor's window is now facing a felony charge -- and the same potential prison sentence as the man he stopped. Dennis Fleming, 61, of Farmington, was arrested for reckless conduct after the Saturday incident at his 19th century farmhouse. The single grandfather had returned home to find that his home had been burglarized and spotted Joseph Hebert, 27, climbing out of a window at a neighbor's home. Fleming said he yelled "Freeze!" before firing his gun into the ground, then held Hebert at gunpoint until police arrived. "I didn't think I could handle this guy physically, so I fired into the ground," Fleming told FoxNews.com. "He stopped. He knew I was serious. I was angry ? and I was worried that this guy was going to come after me." No one was injured in the incident, but when the police arrived, they made two arrests. Hebert was charged with two counts of burglary and drug possession. He faces up to seven years in prison if convicted. Fleming, meanwhile, is scheduled to be arraigned March 20 on a charge of reckless conduct, which could potentially land him a sentence similar to the one Hebert faces. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/21/new-hampshire-man-faces-felony-charge-after-firing-gun-into-ground-near-burglar/ This country has gone crazy. J - Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. - Mohandas Gandhi

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** Private **
02/22/2012 02:29 PM

What about the Castle Law about defending your property? http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/21/new-hampshire-man-faces-felony-charge-after-firing-gun-into-ground-near-burglar/ >  This country has gone crazy. > >

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** Private **
02/22/2012 02:31 PM

It depends on whether or not New Hampshire is a castle law state or not. Some are not. Until Later! C. Hatton Humphrey http://www.eastcoastconservative.com No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/22/2012 02:32 PM

Also, according to the story, it wasn't his castle he was defending... On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 11:31 AM, C. Hatt ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/22/2012 02:37 PM

"What about the Castle Law about defending your property?" The state is considering adopting some type of Castle Law. J - What never fails inside the mind of an intellectual never works outside the confines of his head. The world?s stubborn refusal to vindicate the intellectual?s theories serves as proof of humanity?s irrationality, not his own. Thus, the true believer retrenches rather than rethinks; he launches a war on the world, denying reality because it fails to conform to his theories. If intellectuals are not prepared to reconcile theory and practice, then why do they bother to venture outside the ivory tower or the coffeehouse? Why not stay in the world of abstractions and fantasy? - Daniel J Flyn

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** Private **
02/22/2012 02:52 PM

He wasn't on his land, but on his neighbour's property. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/22/2012 02:48 PM

> New Hampshire man arrested for firing gun into ground while catching > suspected burglar Moral of the story? If you catch someone breaking into your house, don't shoot the ground, shoot them in the head. ...

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** Private **
02/22/2012 02:53 PM

Neighbour's house not your own. On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Camer ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/22/2012 03:21 PM

On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Larry C. Lyons <larryclyons@gmail.com>wrote: > Neighbour's house not your own. That only applies in the UK, Aussie-land, and maybe Canada.  In the US we have neighbors. :) ...

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** Private **
02/22/2012 04:12 PM

just because you Americans cannot spell using the Queen's English ... On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Camer ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/22/2012 04:14 PM

Its all the Brits fault. They sent that jerk Dyson over here, and all of a sudden, the word vacuum used up all of our extra "u"s. We had to borrow them from somewhere. Now if we can only figure out where all the Rs in New England went.... On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Larry C. Lyons <larryclyons@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/22/2012 04:15 PM

On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Larry C. Lyons <larryclyons@gmail.com>wrote: > just because you Americans cannot spell using the Queen's English ... Is that how RuPaul spells it?  I didn't know. ...

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** Private **
02/23/2012 09:06 AM

"Moral of the story? If you catch someone breaking into your house, don't shoot the ground, shoot them in the head." Bernhard Goetz would probably agree. Since this wasn't his house (which had already been burglarized by the suspect), he should have shot and drug him to his yard :) J - The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer's money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to "help." - Thomas Sowell

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** Private **
02/23/2012 10:24 AM

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Jerry Barnes <criticalj@gmail.com> wrote: > Bernhard Goetz would probably agree. > > Since this wasn't his house (which had already been burglarized by the > suspect), he should have shot and drug him to his yard :) The other saying is that if you are going to shoot someone in your house, make sure you fire at least one into the wall afterward that you can call the "warning shot". His mistake was only firing the warning shot and stopping there. ....

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** Private **
02/23/2012 10:32 AM

Except that Goetz went hunting, he was not defending his or his neighbour's house, unless that is he lived in a New York subway car. So how does this apply. To me it seems irrelevant to the discussion. On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Jerry Barnes <criticalj@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/23/2012 01:39 PM

"Except that Goetz went hunting, he was not defending his or his neighbour's house, unless that is he lived in a New York subway car." Please.  He went hunting?  I didn't realize getting mugged was called 'hunting' now.  Or do you think all victims are actually the perpetrators? Pretty common in some extreme leftist circles. "So how does this apply." One of the survivors sued him and he lost the case. "To me it seems irrelevant to the discussion." You are entitled to your opinions.  I will say that it seems that you must have missed the post about shooting the burglar in the head but no big deal. J - 03-16-2006 - The fact that we are here today to debate raising America?s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means that ?the buck stops here.? Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America?s debt limit. - Barack Oba

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** Private **
02/23/2012 05:29 PM

the court trials had him deliberately making the shots without extreme provocation, enough so that he was sentanced to jail time and psychiatric treatment. Moreover in the civil trial that followed the criminal trial jury found that Goetz acted deliberately and recklessly. While yes he was robbed, his actions both before and in response to the four men indicated that he deliberately decided to seek that out ( several days of doing similar actions do more than suggest that) and shoot anyone who attempted to rob him. As I said he was hunting. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/24/2012 09:43 AM

"While yes he was robbed" That's really all that needs to be said. "his actions both before and in response to the four men indicated that he deliberately decided to seek that out ( severa ldays of doing similar actions do more than suggest that) and shoot anyone who attempted to rob him." Kind of like a police sting for prostitution or the recently arrested man who was going to bomb the Capital? Again, there are some leftist circles who blame the victim for initiating the crime.  The real victim is the perpetrator.  Your post seems to indicate you lean this way. J - If some among you fear taking a stand because you are afraid of reprisals from customers, clients, or even government, recognize that you are just feeding the crocodile hoping he'll eat you last. - Ronald Reagan

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** Private **
02/24/2012 10:24 AM

he was not a cop. At best a vigilante, but everything says he was hunting. You also forget (conveniently no doubt) that both the criminal and civil courts did find he acted with "reckless abandon" in the matter. In other words he was hunting. And you justify this? What's next advocating for using dogs and hunting them down in the fields? ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/24/2012 10:41 AM

"At best a vigilante, but everything says he was hunting. " So, sitting on the subway and then getting mugged is hunting.   If they wouldn't have mugged him, they would not have been shot. " You also forget (conveniently no doubt) that both the criminal and civil courts did find he acted with "reckless abandon" in the matter." You must have missed the part about being sued above.  You can reread at your leisure (or not). "In other words he was hunting." They "victims" would not have been shot if they didn't mug him.  Again, the perpetrators become the victims and the victim becomes the culprit. "And you justify this?" I justify the right of anyone to defend himself or herself if they are being mugged. "What's next advocating for using dogs and hunting them down in the fields?" Really? What do you mean by them?  If you mean people who mug other people, then maybe. J - I will worry about the children when they can vote in union elections. - Albert Shanker (president of the American Federation of Teachers) I never thought this day would happen. . . . I won?t have to work on putting gas in my car. I won?t have to work at paying my mortgage. You know. If I help him, he?s gonna help me. - Peggy Josep

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** Private **
02/24/2012 11:30 AM

Come on.  He was looking to shoot a criminal the first chance he got. You know it and I know it. His enthusiasm for shooting someone clouded his judgement on when to shoot someone. That's what got him into trouble. I will defend his right to defend himself, but his attitude going into the situation lead to his handling it poorly. On 2/24/2012 10:41 AM, Jerry Barnes wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/24/2012 11:01 AM

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Larry C. Lyons <larryclyons@gmail.com>wrote: > What's next advocating for using dogs and hunting them down in the > fields? If I am in a field with my dog, minding my own business, and four men try to mug me? If that's "hunting", then....  Yes. ...but muggers don't tend to hang out in fields.  In my experience anywho. -Cameron ...

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** Private **
02/24/2012 11:24 AM

Squirrels. On 2/24/2012 11:00 AM, Camer > > ...but muggers don't tend to hang out in fields.  In my experience anywho. > > -Cameron

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** Private **
02/24/2012 11:29 AM

> Squirrels. You are only hunting the squirrels if they try to mug you first. -Cameron ...

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** Private **
02/24/2012 11:31 AM

Oh, they will.  They will. On 2/24/2012 11:28 AM, Camer > > You are only hunting the squirrels if they try to mug you first. > > -Cameron > > ...

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** Private **
02/24/2012 01:34 PM

Gots to watch them squirrels, one second they're bounding in the field and next they're going for your nuts. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/25/2012 01:48 PM

"He was looking to shoot a criminal the first chance he got. You know it and I know it." First off, I don't know.  More importantly, I don't care.  If the perpetrators didn't commit the crime, it wouldn't have been a problem. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

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** Private **
02/25/2012 01:55 PM

That isn't what I said.  I said his quick on the draw attitude is what got him the reckless endangerment verdict, which was appropriate. On 2/25/2012 1:48 PM, Jerry Barnes wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/25/2012 02:25 PM

"That isn't what I said.  I said his quick on the draw attitude is what got him the reckless endangerment verdict, which was appropriate." You said he was looking to shoot a criminal.  I just assumed that you meant he wanted to shoot a criminal.  Couldn't happen if no crime was perpetrated against him. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

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** Private **
02/25/2012 03:22 PM

OK.  How about this hypothetical?  You were there.  You saw them try to rob him.  He pulls out his gun and shoots them all.  Instead of one of the shots missing, it hits you.  Wouldn't be very happy, I don't think. I know.  I know.  You will say it is the criminals' fault, which it is, but the guy who decided to open fire in a confined space like a subway car is also to blame for being reckless. There would have to be a little part of you saying "Why the heck couldn't you shoot straight?  They were 3 feet from you, dumbass." On 2/25/2012 2:24 PM, Jerry Barnes wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/26/2012 09:48 AM

"OK.  How about this hypothetical?  You were there.  You saw them try to rob him.  He pulls out his gun and shoots them all.  Instead of one of the shots missing, it hits you.  Wouldn't be very happy, I don't think." You're right.  I wouldn't be very happy.  There would also be legal repercussions for this action. Maybe even civil actions against both parties.  I still think he has a right to defend himself. "I know.  I know.  You will say it is the criminals' fault, which it is, but the guy who decided to open fire in a confined space like a subway car is also to blame for being reckless." It is the criminals fault.  If he wasn't being mugged, no one would have been shot. " There would have to be a little part of you saying 'Why the heck couldn't you shoot straight?  They were 3 feet from you, dumbass.'" Probably.  I would also being asking why these idiots were trying to mug someone. J - I am for a government rigorously frugal and simple. Were we directed from Washington when to sow, when to reap, we should soon want bread. - Thomas Jefferson

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** Private **
02/27/2012 08:28 AM

Typical Canadian attitude (FWIW): If he wasn't carrying a gun, no one would have gotten shot. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 08:36 AM

> Typical Canadian attitude (FWIW): If he wasn't carrying a gun, no one would > have gotten shot. > Compare that to the typical American attitude: The more guns you have, the less gun violence you'll have. We should ask a kindergartener which attitude makes more sense. -- Through the too many miles And the too little smiles I still remember you

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** Private **
02/27/2012 08:49 AM

As we have yet another school shooting this morning near Cleveland OH...do we really need more guns on the streets? catching suspected burglar > > Typical Canadian attitude (FWIW): If he wasn't carrying a gun, no one > would have gotten shot. > Compare that to the typical American attitude: The more guns you have, the less gun violence you'll have. We should ask a kindergartener which attitude makes more sense. -- Through the too many miles And the too little smiles I still remember you

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** Private **
02/27/2012 09:27 AM

Do spoons make people fat? On 27 February 2012 09:46, Eric Roberts <owner@threeravensconsulting.com>wrote: > > As we have yet another school shooting this morning near Cleveland OH...do > we really need more guns on the streets? > >

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** Private **
02/27/2012 10:15 AM

No...but spoons enable people to get fat.  I normally agree with you Vivec, but that is a serious logical fallacy, If there weren't guns on the street...or they were not as readily available, people wouldn't be getting shot....particularly kids in schools.  We have a huge problem with gun violence in the US.  Adding more guns or allowing people to carry them around like they are in some John Wayne movie is not the answer. On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Jerry Milo Johnson <jmiloj@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 10:27 AM

The logical fallacy is that if guns were not available to citizens for their protection, criminals would not have guns. On 27 February 2012 11:15, Eric Roberts <owner@threeravensconsulting.com>wrote: > > If there weren't guns on the street...or they were not as readily > available, people wouldn't be getting > shot....particularly kids in schools.

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** Private **
02/27/2012 10:42 AM

it would be a lot harder for criminals to get guns if they were not so readily available.  Would it stop the flow completely...no...but it would certainly reduce the hemorrhaging...  Look at what is going on in states like AZ where i can sell you a gun, as an individual, with no background checks or anything.  If i were a criminal, I would be making regular trips to AZ and have a whole bunch of legally obtained weapons.  Nothing wrong with making all gun sales having a required background check and having cool down periods.  That is just counterproductive.  With laws like what they have in AZ...we may as well just give guns to criminals. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 10:44 AM

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/27/shooting-reported-at-ohio-high-school/?hpt=hp_t1 There would be four students without gunshot wounds if we had tighter gun control laws.  This has nothing to do with criminals.  A minor should not have easy access to a firearm like this. On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:24 PM

Who is to say that the perpetrator would not have harmed these students in some other way? Liek with a knife. maybe we should ban knives, too. All of them, even 'butter' knives. They can kill people you know. Also, we should ban cars. Cars kill people. Every day...hell probably every hour. Wait...I know its not the guns or the knives or the cars, its the people! People are the common denominator there...lets get rid of all the people!!!! ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:40 PM

Again something I'll have to dig up but from what I remember there isn't a corresponding relationship between knives and homicide rates if firearms are not as available. 2 possible reasons, the impulsive nature of firearm use, and with a knife you have to be face to face with the person. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:50 PM

it's a lot harder to kill multiple people with a knife than it is to fire off several rounds from a firearm.  talk about red herrings...you just stated a years worth of that catch... The idea that increased gun related suicides is a measure of increased gun ownership in a state is not my creation.  That came form the CDC.  Just because it flies in the face of your NRA worship doesn't make it false. Pot...Kettle...your statement is 100% anecdotal. It has nothing to do with total suicides...just gun suicides.  please rectify your rectal cranial inversion Scott. On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Larry C. Lyons <larryclyons@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 03:54 PM

> it's a lot harder to kill multiple people with a knife than it is to fire > off several rounds from a firearm.  talk about red herrings...you just > stated a years worth of that catch... And its even easier to run them over with a car, yet I don't hear you clamoring to ban automobiles. In 2009, automobile related fatalities accounted for 11.1 deaths per 100,000 people - http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx . What do you propose we do about that? Surely if the death rate from fire arms alarms you, the death rate from automobiles should be equally alarming. > > The idea that increased gun related suicides is a measure of increased gun > ownership in a state is not my creation.  That came form the CDC.  Just > because it flies in the face of your NRA worship doesn't make it false Nice. I don't agree with you so I must 'worship' the NRA. And here I almost forgot how wonderful life is in the world of absolutes that you live in. > > Pot...Kettle...your statement is 100% anecdotal. Not denying I said anything anecdotal (and admitted to doing so in another message), but can you clarify to what exactly are you referring? > > It has nothing to do with total suicides...just gun suicides.  please > rectify your rectal cranial inversion Scott. Also nice to see that you penchant for name calling has not changed. So refreshing..... ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 04:08 PM

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I would suggest that it must not be easier to run someone over with a car than to shoot them as homicides involve hand guns much more frequently than they do cars. The high number of fatalities involving automobile use are owing to the wide usage of automobiles and the attendant risk of (usually accidental) death.  Hand guns, to the contrary, do not have the same regular usage for tasks other than, well, shooting at people. Some people do take their hand guns out shooting recreationaly, of course. And accidents do happen. But the rate of people who aim their gun at another person versus the rate of people who aim their car at another person seems to be drastically different, so I don't feel like your analogy really follows logically. Cheers, Juda

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02/27/2012 04:12 PM

Also, just for personal clarification, I am not anti-gun or even anti-hand gun. I enjoy shooting, though I do not currently own a gun. I do own a car. I feel more comfortable having a car around my 5 year old than I do having a gun around my 5 year old. As she gets older, I'm sure that will change and I will teach her to understand, respect and not fear weapons. And maybe other people's personal calculus is different but the fact that I'm more comfortable with a car at the house than a hand gun at the house tells me a lot about which one I think is more dangerous. Cheers, Judah

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** Private **
02/27/2012 04:14 PM

I don't believe that in the slightest. > > Well...Scott is an NRA parrot...

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** Private **
02/27/2012 04:16 PM

Seriously...just because the CDC and the NRA supplied propganda statements disagee...the CDDC must be wrong.  nevermind that it is a nonpartisan agency...and the NRA is a fascist reich wing one... ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 04:33 PM

I'm not defending the NRA. I do not care for them. I also did not agree with Scott's analogy between vehicle deaths and gun deaths as you must have noticed. I do not, however, believe that Scott is anything like an NRA "parrot" as you called him and I do not see anything in his statements that shows him parroting anything. Quite the contrary, he is relying (perhaps too strongly) on his own experiences to draw his own judgements. That is the opposite of parroting, I'd say. Cheers, Judah > > Seriously...just because the CDC and the NRA supplied propganda statements > disagee...the CDDC must be wrong.  nevermind that it is a nonpartisan > agency...and the NRA is a fascist reich wing one..

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02/27/2012 04:39 PM

Does anyone else instantly tune out anybody that uses terms like "reich wing", or "socialist" or "MSM"? I have pretty much come to the conclusion that usage of those types of labels is a pretty clear indicator that the person is not worth debating on any subject. Sigh. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 06:32 PM

Admitted I use the phrase reich wing very frequently, mainly because of the similarity of the extreme right wing and the attitudes of the freikorps and other right wing groups of the late 20's and early '30's in Germany. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 04:41 PM

Thanx for looking out! My problem with most gun control measures I have read is that they only seem to make it difficult for law abiding citizens to get fire arms. If something comes along that will make it more difficult for the criminals to get guns, I'd be all for it. In my defense, though, don't we all rely on personal experiences to draw judgments? ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- -- Scott Stroz --------------- You can make things happen, you can watch things happen or you can wonder what the f*&k happened. - Cpt. Phil Harris http://xkcd.com/386/

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02/27/2012 04:53 PM

I try to rely upon a combination of personal experience, logical deduction and inference and expert analysis.  My intuition tells me that there is no way in hell that airplanes can possibly stay up in the air. However, I understand the physics behind it and trust the physics because of the repeated success of those theories and their proven track record. And I've seen a number of planes up in the air and they seem to stay up there more often than they fall out of the sky. So in spite of my extreme misgivings, I've gotten on planes before and, thus far, they've worked. So my intuition has been replaced by my faith in expertise of others which has given way to some modicum of personal experience that, thankfully, supports the experts and works against my intuition. Planes still don't seem right though. As for gun control, I'm not (currently) arguing in favor of gun control. I just felt that your analogy with vehicle deaths is weak, I don't feel they cover the same ground at all and really can't usefully be compared. I do think you are right, however, that if we had fewer cars we'd have fewer vehicular deaths. The same is true for guns, logically speaking. If there are fewer guns, there likely will be fewer deaths associated with guns. Pretty much trivially true from a statistical standpoint. So your point, I would say, isn't so much about the number of deaths associated with guns but rather the social issues around who has the guns. That's a valid point of discussion, for sure, but it doesn't mean there wouldn't be fewer gun-related deaths if there were fewer guns in the US. Just means that the fewer number of guns may be distributed, population-wise, in a fashion that concerns you. Different argument, I think. Judah ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 06:39 PM

You mean like in places like Canada? There are very tight restrictions on handguns there and it seems to be very effective in reducing firearm deaths. As for your last comment, well I try and use what the data suggest, from reputable sources, like peer reviewed journals, the FBI statistics and organizations that I know are reasonably objective, and my own experience too. However if the data contradicts my experience, then my experience ought to be thrown out - the data always rules. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/28/2012 08:29 AM

This is why Judah's opinions are respected on this list, even when people disagree with them, and you are considered a joke, Eric. I too disagree with Scott, but he's not a shill...he just has a different opinion. Debate him on the merits of his arguments, don't attack him ad hominem. And it sucks too because you just happen to hold the same opinion re: hand guns as I do, but when you open that mouth of yours, all you do is hurt my argument. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/28/2012 09:42 AM

"what I am astating is that articles in a peer reviewed journal has much more weight than an ideologically based report by a thinktank that gets most of its money from spreaking hysertia." That would be great if you actually used the criteria as a two way street. J - Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. - Mark Twain

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02/28/2012 11:00 AM

Aw..shucks...I am really feeling the love...you guys and gals sure are swell.... ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/28/2012 11:02 AM

> Aw..shucks...I am really feeling the love...you guys and gals sure are > swell.... > Now if i could only get you to retire that silly "hand guns = cars" argument, we'd be best buds :)

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02/28/2012 11:20 AM

I never said handguns == cars. In 2008 firearms caused 10.8 deaths per 100,000 - http://bit.ly/xRmGzM In 2008 automobile accidents caused 12.30 per 100,000 - http://1.usa.gov/xBkg0V (And I will state now that I did not go check the political affiliation of the group in the first link- so Larry may not like it :D ) Intent of design or intent of user aside, in 2008 automobile accidents were the cause of death for about the same number of people as firearms - the stats pretty much show that. Again, I am not so much anti-gun control. I am anti-bad gun control. Most gun control measures I have seen would impact law abiding citizens attempting to buy a gun. They would have little or no effect on the illegal procurement of weapons - kind of like SOPA/PIPA would have no real effect on piracy, but would/could cause trouble for law abiding Internet users. If a gun control measure was introduced that truly limited illegal procurement of weapons, I would be all for it. I am not sure if the stats exist - I did a brief search but came up with nothing - but I wonder how many of those firearm related deaths were from illegally obtained weapons - the ones that gun control laws would have no effect on. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/28/2012 11:26 AM

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Yet at the same time those hand guns and cars were killing people, billions and billions of trips were completed safely where a car was used to transport a person from point A to point B. Hand guns that didn't kill someone or threaten someone in that time......just sat around...waiting for their chance do to so.

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** Private **
02/28/2012 11:28 AM

Obviously you never saw the movie Christine. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/28/2012 07:18 PM

So, its not so much how many people guns kill, its how many people guns kill in relation to how many guns don't kill people? OK, I will admit it..I ma being snarky However, every year I bet there are probably millions of bullets fired at shooting ranges, competitions, law enforcement training, for hunting, etc. that don't kill people.  Hell, last summer alone I bet I shot close to 1500 9mm bullets and close to 150 shotgun shells at the shooting range with my father in law. Not one of those projectiles came close to injuring a human being. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/28/2012 07:21 PM

<quote> Guns don't kill people....I do. </quote> ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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03/01/2012 10:57 AM

"I'd prefer relatively neutral sources for the data, like the FBI Crime Stats for firearm stats or the NITSA or NIIHS for the vehicle information." Cool.  Here are some FBI numbers from 2005. The seven least violent states are all shall-issue right-to-carry (RTC). Of the seven most violent states, three are non-RTC (includes D.C.) Since about 75% of all states are RTC, 43% of the worst being non-RTC makes these states over-represented at the unpleasant end. The five states with the lowest murder rate are RTC, but two of the five worst are non-RTC. The eleven states with the lowest robbery rate are RTC, but of the eleven worst, 5 are non-RTC. Nine of 10 states with the lowest assault rates are RTC, while 3 of 10 with the highest rates are non-RTC. Overall, non-RTC states average 27.8% higher violent crime rates, most notably 43.8% higher murder and 85% higher robbery rates, than RTC states. Here are some more interesting FBI stats from 2009 an d 2010. Violent crime rates fell 4.4% during the first six months of 2009.  Murder rates actual fell 9%.  During the same time period and the period leading up to it, gun sales surged (fearing an Obama assault on the 2nd amendment) Murders in the U.S. have decreased steadily since 2006, dropping from 15,087 to 12,996. In 2009, FBI background checks for guns increased by 30 percent over the previous year, while firearms sales in large retail outlets increased by almost 40 percent. DC, which arguably has the tightest gun controls, had the highest murder rate in the nation at 16 per 1000. Correlation does not imply causation, but it is interesting.  Especially considering that there is no correlation what so ever between more guns and more violence J - ?I?ve pledged that I will not sign health insurance reform ? as badly as I think it?s necessary, I won?t sign it if that reform adds even one dime to our deficit.? - Barrack O

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03/01/2012 02:38 PM

Do they have 2010 stats to compare with what weposted? catching suspected burglar "I'd prefer relatively neutral sources for the data, like the FBI Crime Stats for firearm stats or the NITSA or NIIHS for the vehicle information." Cool.  Here are some FBI numbers from 2005. The seven least violent states are all shall-issue right-to-carry (RTC). Of the seven most violent states, three are non-RTC (includes D.C.) Since about 75% of all states are RTC, 43% of the worst being non-RTC makes these states over-represented at the unpleasant end. The five states with the lowest murder rate are RTC, but two of the five worst are non-RTC. The eleven states with the lowest robbery rate are RTC, but of the eleven worst, 5 are non-RTC. Nine of 10 states with the lowest assault rates are RTC, while 3 of 10 with the highest rates are non-RTC. Overall, non-RTC states average 27.8% higher violent crime rates, most notably 43.8% higher murder and 85% higher robbery rates, than RTC states. Here are some more interesting FBI stats from 2009 an d 2010. Violent crime rates fell 4.4% during the first six months of 2009.  Murder rates actual fell 9%.  During the same time period and the period leading up to it, gun sales surged (fearing an Obama assault on the 2nd amendment) Murders in the U.S. have decreased steadily since 2006, dropping from 15,087 to 12,996. In 2009, FBI background checks for guns increased by 30 percent over the previous year, while firearms sales in large retail outlets increased by almost 40 percent. DC, which arguably has the tightest gun controls, had the highest murder rate in the nation at 16 per 1000. Correlation does not imply causation, but it is interesting.  Especially considering that there is no correlation what so ever between more guns and more violence J - "I've pledged that I will not sign health insurance reform - as badly as I think it's necessary, I won't sign it if that reform adds even one dime to our deficit." - Barrack O

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03/01/2012 02:52 PM

On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > Do they have 2010 stats to compare with what weposted? http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/tylenol.html Studies indicate that acetaminophen overdose results in over 56,000 injuries, 2,500 hospitalizations, and an estimated 450 deaths per year. So the next time you offer some pain relief to a friend, remember you could kill them. ;-)

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03/01/2012 09:45 PM

Sorry...but that isn't what I was looking for...unless, of course, this overdose happened as a result of someone loading a shotgun with Tylenol and shooting someone... [mailto:casey@uberwebsitesolutions.com] Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 1:52 PM To: cf-community Subject: Re: New Hampshire man arrested for firing gun into ground while catching suspected burglar On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > Do they have 2010 stats to compare with what weposted? http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/tylenol.html Studies indicate that acetaminophen overdose results in over 56,000 injuries, 2,500 hospitalizations, and an estimated 450 deaths per year. So the next time you offer some pain relief to a friend, remember you could kill them. ;-)

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03/01/2012 03:17 PM

I don't think they release those until later in the year - FBI stats at least. They have release the preliminary statistics but these are usually revised as more data comes in from the reporting agencies. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/preliminary-annual-ucr-jan-jun-2011 On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Eric Roberts <owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/28/2012 01:06 PM

I'd prefer relatively neutral sources for the data, like the FBI Crime Stats for firearm stats or the NITSA or NIIHS for the vehicle information. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/28/2012 09:38 PM

Intent is everything catching suspected burglar I never said handguns == cars. In 2008 firearms caused 10.8 deaths per 100,000 - http://bit.ly/xRmGzM In 2008 automobile accidents caused 12.30 per 100,000 - http://1.usa.gov/xBkg0V (And I will state now that I did not go check the political affiliation of the group in the first link- so Larry may not like it :D ) Intent of design or intent of user aside, in 2008 automobile accidents were the cause of death for about the same number of people as firearms - the stats pretty much show that. Again, I am not so much anti-gun control. I am anti-bad gun control. Most gun control measures I have seen would impact law abiding citizens attempting to buy a gun. They would have little or no effect on the illegal procurement of weapons - kind of like SOPA/PIPA would have no real effect on piracy, but would/could cause trouble for law abiding Internet users. If a gun control measure was introduced that truly limited illegal procurement of weapons, I would be all for it. I am not sure if the stats exist - I did a brief search but came up with nothing - but I wonder how many of those firearm related deaths were from illegally obtained weapons - the ones that gun control laws would have no effect on. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/28/2012 01:05 PM

If it will make you feel any better I can insult you for a while. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/28/2012 07:19 PM

That would not make me feel better. Usually when you insult me I need to break out the dictionary. :D > > If it will make you feel any better I can insult you for a while. > -- Scott Stroz --------------- You can make things happen, you can watch things happen or you can wonder what the f*&k happened. - Cpt. Phil Harris http://xkcd.com/386/

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** Private **
02/27/2012 06:19 PM

You are wrong on this one, the NRA is not a fascist reich wing organization, its just a reich wing organization. Its more concerned with bilking the gullible than deutschland über alles. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 06:15 PM

Agreed, Scott is a sh*t disturber rather than an NRA shill. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 04:26 PM

Wow..I almost forgot how much of a judgmental jackass you are too. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 05:29 PM

Just as much of a jackass as you are with making arguments that have no correlation to the discussion... ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 04:36 PM

Along those same lines, I wonder how easy it is to  accidentally kill multiple people with a gun? Its pretty easy to kill multiple people by accident with a car. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 05:36 PM

Since most firearms used are hand guns, and most are either semi-auto clip fed or a revolver, you can easily and quickly kill 6-9 people if you know what you are doing. (that based on a revolver having 6 rounds and most handguns have 9 round clips (yes that does vary).  if you are there to do some serious damage and bring extra clips and you know how to use the firearm proficiently...that number goes up real quick.  How long does it take you to offload a full clip? I know with a .45, it took me about a minute or so to accurately offload the rounds into the target.  Imagine the damage that can be done in 5-10 minutes. That is assuming a handguns was used.  If you use a semi-automatic rifle, that magazine size goes up.  I am not sure what the law allows, but i know they have 30 round clips for semi-automatic rifles...I heard something about a 60 round clip from a gun nut in a different discussion.  I know with an AR-15, it is not hard to tun that to a fully automatic rifle.  Even in full auto, it is fairly accurate and if you are spraying into a crowd...that's a lot of people you can kill. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 06:55 PM

up until the republican congress and Bush II repealed the assault gun law, clips for both rifles and pistols were limited to 10 rounds. Now there is no real limit. That's why the Tuscon shooter was able to use a large capacity clip and was changing to another 30 round clip when he was tackled. With a 9mm it takes less than 30 seconds to unload a 30 round clip as I found out the last time I went target shooting with Browning HP 9mm. I never tried it with M-16's or the civilian version, but it was not difficult converting a FAL or an FN-C1 to full auto I found. I'm not gunsmith or armourer, but if a fumble fingers like me can do it then I figure most people could do the conversion. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 08:12 PM

I said 'accidentally' - no one is going to empty a magazine into a group of people 'accidentally'. A bus can carry what 30-40 people? A moment of absentmindedness and we have a tragedy. Granted, not the same as someone purposely going on a rampage, but that does not make it any less preventable. I fully understand, and have witnessed,  the havoc a person with a gun and a purpose can cause. Sadly, I also fully understand, and have witnessed, the havoc a person with an automobile can cause. You say guns kill people - and there is no arguing that they do. I say cars also kill people - and there is no arguing that they do. The difference? I am not trying to tell you that you cannot own a car because some idiot 500 miles away killed someone with theri weapon of choice. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 08:49 PM

You know, gun laws, or the lack of, probably have nothing to do with levels of violence.  I dare say it is culturally driven.  Guns just happen to be convenient.  Many people with access to them have no respect for the weapon or what it means to use one.  They also lack the self-discipline that usually comes with learning other ways of killing someone efficiently.  Shooting the shit out of everything that moves, or doesn't, is glorified in our mass media, movies, TV, music.. black on black violence and gang related killings are glamorized in those cultural subsets. We are an aggressive, self centered, entitled and reactionary culture. If you give some people like that the power over life and death that fits in the palm of their hand, they are going to misuse it.  It's not the guns.  It's the attitudes.

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02/27/2012 09:25 PM

They are going to kill people with matchbox cars?  *grin* sorry couldn't resist... catching suspected burglar You know, gun laws, or the lack of, probably have nothing to do with levels of violence.  I dare say it is culturally driven.  Guns just happen to be convenient.  Many people with access to them have no respect for the weapon or what it means to use one.  They also lack the self-discipline that usually comes with learning other ways of killing someone efficiently. Shooting the shit out of everything that moves, or doesn't, is glorified in our mass media, movies, TV, music.. black on black violence and gang related killings are glamorized in those cultural subsets. We are an aggressive, self centered, entitled and reactionary culture. If you give some people like that the power over life and death that fits in the palm of their hand, they are going to misuse it.  It's not the guns. It's the attitudes.

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02/27/2012 09:24 PM

Accidentally I can deal with...but as you said...no one accidentally empties a 30 round magazine into a crowd just as most people don't run others down purposefully with a car.  Two completely different and unrelated situations. Accidents happen.  Guns were made for one purpose...to kill. catching suspected burglar I said 'accidentally' - no one is going to empty a magazine into a group of people 'accidentally'. A bus can carry what 30-40 people? A moment of absentmindedness and we have a tragedy. Granted, not the same as someone purposely going on a rampage, but that does not make it any less preventable. I fully understand, and have witnessed,  the havoc a person with a gun and a purpose can cause. Sadly, I also fully understand, and have witnessed, the havoc a person with an automobile can cause. You say guns kill people - and there is no arguing that they do. I say cars also kill people - and there is no arguing that they do. The difference? I am not trying to tell you that you cannot own a car because some idiot 500 miles away killed someone with theri weapon of choice. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- alarming. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- logically. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 04:13 PM

Strawman/red herring... a car ia not an item designed solely with the purpose of killing.  Nice try... ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 04:21 PM

Please show me where I said it was, I must have missed that. Do you not find it alarming that so many people die from the use of an item that is not designed solely with the purpose of killing? ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 04:37 PM

"NO I went to their website and then went to a couple of charity watchdog sites, such as ttp://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cf ?bay=search.summary&orgid=10196<http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=10196>; and looked them up. I also did the same for the Harvard School For Public Health project I cited. That one receives money from the Joyce Foundation and the CDC. Last I checked the CDC is not what you'd call a liberal organization, except in the minds of some extremist conservatives." Kudos Larry for doing follow up.  A good idea for everyone. Let me bring up a fallacy that you are perpetrating.  You are assuming that an organization with supposedly conservative leanings is automatically wrong. With the innocuous google search I posted "gun control crime rates", you can find more material to read if you are interested. In the end, the data is the data.  Violent crimes are more likely to happen in places with stricter gun control.  Take it however you want. "Second, I really do not think that a screed published as an op ed piece in a student publication has the same weight as multiple studies in peer reviewed journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine or Public Health. If you think that it does then you're woefully ignorant of how this process works for real science, not the pseudo science promoted by the right wing." As I have stated before, you are entitled to and encouraged to think what you want.  (BTW, did you complain when the UN based some of its climate policy on the the unproven thesis of a graduate student?) J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

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** Private **
02/27/2012 06:22 PM

what I am astating is that articles in a peer reviewed journal has much more weight than an ideologically based report by a thinktank that gets most of its money from spreaking hysertia. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 10:50 AM

It looks like Virginia will be joining that group. The republican legislature rescinded the ban on purchasing more than 1 handgun a month. So there is going to be a lot of straw-man purchases over the next while with firearms from Virginia showing up in crimes up and down the east coast. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 11:26 AM

Well let's look at that. Is the homicide rate by firearm exponentially higher in Arizona as compared to the rest of the US? On 27 February 2012 11:41, Eric Roberts <owner@threeravensconsulting.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 11:32 AM

http://vpc.org/press/1110gundeath.htm On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 11:36 AM

> Well let's look at that. Is the homicide rate by firearm exponentially > higher in Arizona as compared to the rest of the US? > Why do people always focus on homicide rate when it comes to guns? Hand guns do far more damage every single day in this country than can be reflected in attributable deaths. I'd like to see this stat: Number of times in a given day that an innocent American's day, week, month, year or possible life, is negatively affected by a hand gun. Doesn't have to be a homicide...could be as simple as a night time clerk who had a gun shoved in his face and now is afraid to even leave his house. Or the battered wife who's reminded of the glock King Asshole keeps in his closet should she ever think about leaving him. The gun flashed in the waistband of the punk on the street because someone else looked at him wrong. You are getting lost in statistics when all it takes is a little common sense: Why do we need easily concealable and portable weapons? Only two reasons: 1) to do bad things to people or 2) to protect ourselves from the people in 1. Your argument is the same tired one: we can never eliminate 1, so we should always have 2. In reality, 2 ensures 1 will always thrive, which feeds 2, which feeds 1, which.....on and on and on it goes. We should be better than this. -- Through the too many miles And the too little smiles I still remember you

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02/27/2012 11:38 AM

The statistics also show that states with high gun ownership also have higher than normal suicideand homicide rates (by using a firearm). ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 11:43 AM

On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > The statistics also show that states with high gun ownership also have > higher than normal suicideand homicide rates (by using a firearm). > Meh. I don't think the two are related. I believe guns drive crime, i don't think they do much for suicide. The latter is such a complex disaster, i think the means in which it's ultimately carried out are more of a technicality than a factor in the decision. -- Through the too many miles And the too little smiles I still remember you

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** Private **
02/27/2012 12:01 PM

That was one of the "measures" that criminologists use to measure gun ownership...suicide rates... it makes sense.  if you have a state where it is hard to get a gun, you are going to have considerably less gun suicides. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 12:44 PM

Gun suicides maybe...but do you have more suicides on the whole? On 27 February 2012 13:00, Eric Roberts <owner@threeravensconsulting.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 12:44 PM

> Gun suicides maybe...but do you have more suicides on the whole? > The study Larry pointed too suggests yes....which is a bit surprising. -- Through the too many miles And the too little smiles I still remember you

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02/27/2012 12:48 PM

Why is it suprising?  If there is more gun ownership, someone in a fit of depression or just overly stressed out can very easily shoot themselves...that is something that you rarely recover from. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 12:55 PM

On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > Why is it suprising?  If there is more gun ownership, someone in a fit of > depression or just overly stressed out can very easily shoot > themselves...that is something that you rarely recover from. > same person could just as easily pop pills. I think guns and the gun culture drive gun related crime...i do not think guns have much affect on the complex mechanisms that ultimately lead to suicide.....but Larry's study might hint otherwise...and I guess I could see that. Some idiot gun enthusiast who always has a gun on them goes into a sudden and deep depression, and blows his head off when he otherwise might not off himself..... Bottom line is the same.....hand guns provide no benefit to society, only harm. -- Through the too many miles And the too little smiles I still remember you

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:02 PM

Its much easier to back out once you've popped the pills, call 911 get your stomach pumped out etc. With firearms its more difficult to back out once you pull the trigger. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:07 PM

Fine, makes sense....still, i don't really care about the guy who wants to turn the gun on himself...i care about the guy who wants to turn it on someone else. On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Larry C. Lyons <larryclyons@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:22 PM

That is reflected in the increased homicide rates...Arizona had more gun related murders, per capita, than the City of Chicago... Eric ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:33 PM

They can easily hang themselves with a belt, or lock themselves in the garage with the car running, or take a bottle of 'sleeping pills' - each of these things is equally as deadly in a suicide and more readily available in any household than a gun. Totally anecdotal, I know, but in almost 20 years in EMS I saw probably exponentially more deaths from motor vehicle accidents than from gun related violence - and I spent about 5 years working in one of the worst cities in the country - Newark, NJ. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 02:05 PM

In Canada our fits of depression result in us beating ourselves about the head with a hockey stick or a bowl of poutine. In either case we usually just end up exhausted and bruised. On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 02:11 PM

This made me laugh...:-) Just suddenly popped up after reading a rather serious series of posts hahahha :-) I had to read it twice before my brain caught up. "What? They beat each other with hockey sticks? ...well..I wonder what the statistics on that ar- wait a minute..!" On 27 February 2012 15:04, Medic <hofmedic@gmail.com> wrote: > > In Canada our fits of depression result in us beating ourselves about the > head with a hockey stick or a bowl of poutine. In either case we usually > just end up exhausted and bruised. > >

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** Private **
02/27/2012 02:12 PM

Hey don't forget sticking your head outside in the snow. Or insulting someone from Quebec or Newfoundland. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 01:26 PM

But does that mean you will have considerably less suicides? If not, its a red herring...means nothing. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 12:04 PM

I'll have to dig up the source for this again, but I remember reading recently that if there is a handgun in the house, suicide, accidental deaths, and homicides increase by 2 or 3 times over those household who do not have handguns. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 12:10 PM

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html This last reference is very extensive it compares the various rates of suicide, accidental deaths, homicide etc as a function of firearms in the house across all sorts of conditions over a 10 to 30 year period - depending on the analysis. Its very consistent, in all these situations, the presence of firearms significantly increases the changes of death in the household. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 12:17 PM

Gun availability and state suicide rates, 1988-1997 (cross sectional analysis) Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership rates, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and suicide across 50 states over a ten year period. Major findings:  After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, across the United States, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of suicide, particularly firearm suicide. Publication:  Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Household Firearm Ownership Levels and Suicide across U.S. Regions and States, 1988-1997."  Epidemiology. 2002; 13:517-524. Overall the page (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html) looks at all the things already discussed. What is very impressive is that the relation between firearm ownership and suicide/homicide/unintentional death held even for controlling most other factors. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 12:36 PM

One of the five students shot this morning has died BTW...that was just reported on CNN. On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Larry C. Lyons <larryclyons@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:28 PM

On a slightly related note. When was the last time anyone heard of a home schooled child bringing a gun to school and shooting fellow students? Simple solution: ban schools. Without schools, there will be no school shootings. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:49 PM

"Compare that to the typical American attitude: The more guns you have, the less gun violence you'll have." Actually, there are studies and statistics that show this. http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/ The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling: Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population). http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/09/30/media-silence-is-deafening-about-important-gun-news/ Murder and violent crime rates were supposed to soar after the Supreme Court struck down gun controllaws in Chicago and Washington, D.C. Politicians predicted disaster. "More handguns in the District of Columbia will only lead to more handgun violence," Washington?s Mayor Adrian Fenty warned the day the court made its decision. Chicago?s Mayor Daley predicted that we would "go back to the Old West, you have a gun and I have a gun and we'll settle it in the streets . . . ." The New York Times even editorialized this month about the Supreme Court's "unwise" decision that there is a right for people "to keep guns in the home." But Armageddon never happened. Newly released data for Chicago shows that, as in Washington, murder and gun crime rates didn't rise after the bans were eliminated -- they plummeted. They have fallen much more than the national crime rate. "We should ask a kindergartener which attitude makes more sense." Ask them if getting a flu shot when they are not sick makes any sense or if they understand that it actually does hurt their parents more when a parent has to spank them? J - Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. - Mohandas Gandhi

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:55 PM

yes...because Fox news is a such a real news source. How shocking, the Guns and God propaganda network having something positive to say about more guns... Several of the studies posted earlier stated just the opposite.  States that have tighter gun control laws have lower gun related homicide rates Actually gun homicide rates in Chicago have increased since those laws were struck down... ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 01:56 PM

Always follow the source. The ACRU is a right wing think tank with lots of funding from extremely conservative groups. Interesting to see who is on the board: Edwin Meese III, former U.S. Attorney General William Bradford Reynolds, former assistant U.S. Attorney General for Civil Rights James Q. Wilson, professor, Pepperdine University School of Public Policy Curtin Winsor, former U.S. Ambassador to Costa Rica Walter E. Williams, professor of economics, George Mason University Charles J. Cooper, former Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel Richard Bender Abell, former Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Justice Programs J Kenneth Blackwell, former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Human Rights Commission All used to be Ronnie Raygun or Shrub appointees. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 02:16 PM

"Always follow the source. The ACRU is a right wing think tank with lots of funding from extremely conservative groups. Interesting to see who is on the board:" Sure.  That's why any studies you find promoting gun control are predominately generated by the left. Anyway, here's a link to the actual study published by Harvard Law http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf Some good excerpts: Since at least 1965, the false assertion that the United States has the industrialized world’s highest murder rate has been an artifact of politically motivated Soviet minimization designed to hide the true homicide rates. Since well before that date, the Soviet Union possessed extremely stringent gun controls that were effectuated by a police state apparatus providing stringent enforcement. So successful was that regime that few Russian civilians now have firearms and very few murders involve them. Yet, manifest success in keeping its people disarmed did not prevent the Soviet Union from having far and away the highest murder rate in the developed world.In the 1960s and early 1970s, the gun?less So? viet Union’s murder rates paralleled or generally exceeded those of gun?ridden America. While American rates stabilized and then steeply declined, however, Russian murder increased so drasti? cally that by the early 1990s the Russian rate was three times higher than that of the United States. Between 1998?2004 (the lat? est figure available for Russia), Russian murder rates were nearly four times higher than American rates. Similar murder rates also characterize the Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and various other now?independent European nations of the former U.S.S.R. Thus, in the United States and the former Soviet Union transition? ing into current?day Russia, “homicide results suggest that wher guns are scarce other weapons are substituted in killings.” While American gun ownership is quite high, Table 1 shows many other developed nations (e.g., Norway, Finland, Germany, France, Denmark) with high rates of gun ownership. These countries, however, have murder rates as low or lower than many devel? oped nations in which gun ownership is much rarer. For example, Luxembourg, where handguns are totally banned and ownership of any kind of gun is minimal, The same pattern appears when comparisons of violence to gun ownership are made within nations. Indeed, “data on fire? arms ownership by constabulary area in England,” like data from the United States, show “a negative correlation,” that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are high? est.” ... National Institute of Justice surveys among prison inmates find that large percentages report that their fear that a victim might be armed deterred them from confrontation crimes. “[T]he felons most frightened ‘about confronting an armed victim’ were those from states with the greatest relative number of privately owned firearms.” Conversely, robbery is highest in states that most restrict gun ownership. ... Over a decade ago, Professor Brandon Centerwall of the Uni? versity of Washington undertook an extensive, statistically sophis? ticated study comparing areas in the United States and Canada to determine whether Canada’s more restrictive policies had better contained criminal violence. When he published his results it was with the admonition: If you are surprised by [our] finding[s], so [are we]. [We] did not begin this research with any intent to “exonerate” hand? guns, but there it is—a negative finding, to be sure, but a nega? tive finding is nevertheless a positive contribution. It directs us where not to aim public health resources. ... This Article has reviewed a significant amount of evidence from a wide variety of international sources. Each individual portion of evidence is subject to cavil—at the very least the general objection that the persuasiveness of social scientific evidence cannot remotely approach the persuasiveness of conclusions in the physical sciences. Nevertheless, the bur? den of proof rests on the proponents of the more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death mantra, espe? cially since they argue public policy ought to be based on that mantra. To bear that burden would at the very least require showing that a large number of nations with more guns have more death and that nations that have imposed stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions in criminal violence (or suicide). But those correlations are not observed when a large number of nations are compared across the world This link shows a simple google search with tons of results: https://www.google.com/search?ix=sea&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=gun+control+crime+rates J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

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** Private **
02/27/2012 02:56 PM

NO I went to their website and then went to a couple of charity watchdog sites, such as http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=10196 and looked them up. I also did the same for the Harvard School For Public Health project I cited. That one receives money from the Joyce Foundation and the CDC. Last I checked the CDC is not what you'd call a liberal organization, except in the minds of some extremist conservatives. Second, I really do not think that a screed published as an op ed piece in a student publication has the same weight as multiple studies in peer reviewed journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine or Public Health. If you think that it does then you're woefully ignorant of how this process works for real science, not the pseudo science promoted by the right wing. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 03:01 PM

I think it is Ironic that the American criminologist is from a town called Battleground and the Canadian guy's last name is Mauser... On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Larry C. Lyons <larryclyons@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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** Private **
02/27/2012 02:11 PM

For the record, this rarely happened.  Our contemporary ideas of the "Wild West" are somewhat .. romanticized. On 2/27/2012 1:49 PM, Jerry Barnes wrote: > > Chicago?s Mayor Daley predicted that we would "go back to the Old West, you > have a gun and I have a gun and we'll settle it in the streets . . . .

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** Private **
02/27/2012 09:00 PM

No, but the contents of them do, just as the contents on guns are the real killers. (if you're going to make a bad analogy I'll play along) > > Do spoons make people fat?

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** Private **
02/27/2012 08:51 AM

How many more people have to die before people stop replacing Viagra prescriptions with firearms? catching suspected burglar > > Typical Canadian attitude (FWIW): If he wasn't carrying a gun, no one > would have gotten shot. > Compare that to the typical American attitude: The more guns you have, the less gun violence you'll have. We should ask a kindergartener which attitude makes more sense. -- Through the too many miles And the too little smiles I still remember you

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** Private **
02/22/2012 02:53 PM

On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Cameron Childress <cameronc@gmail.com>wrote: > Moral of the story? If you catch someone breaking into your house, don't > shoot the ground, shoot them in the head. > Or just wait for the apocalypse and shot zombies. Don't forget to Double Tap!

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02/22/2012 03:58 PM

ZOMBIES!!! On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Casey Dougall - Uber Website Solutions <casey@uberwebsitesolutions.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

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02/27/2012 08:50 AM

This is all the info they have right now. Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 7:39 AM To: textbreakingnews@ema3lsv06.turner.com Subject: CNN Breaking News Shooting reported at Chardon High School near Cleveland, Ohio, local law enforcement officer says. >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= A bad Credit Score is 598 or below. Click here to get your 2012 score instantly for $0! By Experian http://www.FreeCreditScore.com/CNN >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= You have opted-in to receive this e-mail from CNN.com. To unsubscribe from Breaking News e-mail alerts, go to: http://cgi.cnn.com/m/clik?l=textbreakingnews One CNN Center Atlanta, GA 30303 (c) & (r) 2012 Cable News Network


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