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Dr Ruth was a paramilitary sniper
Author: Judah McAuley
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347515
Dr. Ruth also talks a little about her Orthodox Jewish parents. During
World War II, Westheimer was sent from Frankfurt to a children's home
in Switzerland after her father was rounded up by the Nazis; both her
parents later died in the Holocaust. She was an only child. The war
ended when she was 16. "I then went to Palestine, lived on a kibbutz,
which is a collective farm," she explains, "and then worked in the
underground movement as a sniper." (Dr. Ruth was a member of the
Zionist paramilitary group the Irgun.) "So if you don't ask me good
questions today, watch out," she teases interviewer Derek Blasberg. "I
can still put five bullets in a little red circle."
From the article:
http://jezebel.com/5888692/exclusive-dr-ruth-is-a-trained-israeli-sniper-who-doesnt-like-to-treat-people-who-are-into-bondage
Huh. Definitely something I did not know about Dr. Ruth. She's a
fascinating individual and damn smart. I'd love to have a drink with
her some time.
Cheers,
Judah
Author: Michael Dinowitz
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347523
A sex therapist who's hands on with big guns and still well versed
with long weapons? Nothing new here. ;)
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Author: Larry C. Lyons
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347524
Pity she belonged to a terrorist group. Haganah I can see, but a group that
used terrorism and bombings on civilians, peacekeeepers and other Jewish
defensive groups I find beyond the pale. At least it was not the Stern Gang.
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Author: Judah McAuley
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347525
I'm really not familiar with the various groups that operated in the
area between the end of WWII and the declaration of statehood in 48.
Judah
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Author: Larry C. Lyons
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347531
Haganah was formed in the 20's after the anti-Jewish riots in Palestine.
They were primarily defensive, protecting jewish settlements. After the war
of independence in 1948 they became the IDF. The Irgun was a radical
splinter group that left the Haganah in the early 30's. They fit more
within the mold of a terrorist group using assassinations, kidnapping and
bombings to try and achive independence. During 1944 the Haganah with the
cooperation of the British went to war with the Irgun. BTW there was an
Arab batallion in the Haganah. The last group the Lehi or Stern Gang was
even more radical than the Irgun. Even though the 3 groups reached a peace
accord in 1945, during the war of independence the Irgun and Stern Gang
were associated with a number of atrocities. The Haganah and Palmach were
responsible for bringing the perpetrators to the Israeli courts after
independence. Monachim Begen, a right wing Prime Minister of Israel was one
of the leaders of the Irgun.
Michael and Judith may have a different take on the history though.
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Author: Michael Dinowitz
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347561
The original post was inaccurate. She was part of the Hagana but NOT
part of the Irgun.
>
> Pity she belonged to a terrorist group. Haganah I can see, but a group that
> used terrorism and bombings on civilians, peacekeeepers and other Jewish
> defensive groups I find beyond the pale. At least it was not the Stern Gang
Author: Michael Dinowitz
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347562
I would not use the term radical but I would use the term terrorist.
The Irgun started as a retaliatory organization to instill terror in
those who targeted Jews. The British were not protecting Jews in the
area so the Irgun took an 'eye for an eye' approach. They did not
initiate violence till later in their existence and that violence
mainly targeted the British government that was in control of the area
at the time.
The term atrocity is a totally loaded one and its use is debatable in
reference to the Irgun. The bombing of the King David Hotel (the
center of British government control of the area) was accompanied by
multiple warnings to which were ignored. The truth of Deir Yassin is
so convoluted between scholarship of facts, of politics, of
propaganda, and of 'alternate' views that it can barely be used in any
clear conversation.
I'm not going into the British double standards that helped breed the
Irgun. Too similar to what is still happening.
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Author: Eric Roberts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347563
So that makes it less of an atrocity Michael? Seriously? An atrocity is an
atrocity...just because they sent warnings doesn't mitigate the fact that
they committed an atrocity. They were terrorists...period. You are right
though...it is still going on...except now it is is the Israelis creating
the environment to breed terrorists rather than the British.
I would not use the term radical but I would use the term terrorist.
The Irgun started as a retaliatory organization to instill terror in those
who targeted Jews. The British were not protecting Jews in the area so the
Irgun took an 'eye for an eye' approach. They did not initiate violence till
later in their existence and that violence mainly targeted the British
government that was in control of the area at the time.
The term atrocity is a totally loaded one and its use is debatable in
reference to the Irgun. The bombing of the King David Hotel (the center of
British government control of the area) was accompanied by multiple warnings
to which were ignored. The truth of Deir Yassin is so convoluted between
scholarship of facts, of politics, of propaganda, and of 'alternate' views
that it can barely be used in any clear conversation.
I'm not going into the British double standards that helped breed the Irgun.
Too similar to what is still happening.
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bullets in a little red circle."
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Author: Larry C. Lyons
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347571
Deir Yassin - most of the people killed were civilians. According to
what I read, many were killed execution style. Assassination of 2
peace negotiators. The Lehi negotiated with the Nazis and attempted to
ally with them.
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Author: Michael Dinowitz
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347601
Less of an atrocity? I disagree with the label of atrocity. We know
what real atrocities are. We know how to apply the label properly.
They committed murder. They targeted the British military offices but
they knew innocents would be effected. Even with trying to lower the
numbers of innocents, they had to know that there was a high
probability of hurting someone who was not part of the British
military. It can be argued that targeting the military takes it out of
the realm of terrorism but that's the Hamas and Hizballah arguments
and we know that it's a false one.
Wait, let me back up there. Any taking of an innocent life is an
atrocity. The taking of any life is the destruction of the person and
all of his descendants. But if atrocity can be applied to any death
then we need a term to cover the wanton taking of multiple lives as is
happening in Syria now. We need a term that covers the planned
execution of civilians with no regard for anything past death.
As for your assertion that its the Israelis are creating the
environment, I see that you're disregarding the fact that Israel is
still under physical attack by hostile Arabs inside and out, hostile
media encouraging the attacks, hostile governments applying double
standards to it, and threats to its very existence. But yes, it is
Israel's fault for existing.
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Author: Michael Dinowitz
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347605
Before I respond to the specific points you made, I'm going to have to
do more research. I do know that it was not some innocent and peaceful
village with no combatants, no history of attacks, and no reason for
being attacked. I especially want to look up that accusation about the
Lehi negotiating with the Nazis.
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Author: Larry C. Lyons
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347621
No Deir Yassin was not an innocent town. The arab fighters did not
evacuate the civilians. But the Lehi and Irgun as far as I can tell
did go much too far.
As for the contact with the Nazis, that happened in 1943-1944,
Wikipedia (fwiw) has a fairly good summary on this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Contact_with_Nazi_Germany
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Author: Judah McAuley
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347624
The only part that I'm going to respond to is the bit about the Hotel
David bombing as I'm not familiar with the other intricacies you guys
are talking about, but it was always my understanding that everyone
has historically laughed at the post-bombing assertion that there were
warning phoned in? I also don't think that it makes any difference,
really. If you are blowing up a hotel, you are blowing up a hotel and
it doesn't matter if you warned people you were going to do it or not.
The hotel, as far as I'm aware, wasn't a military installation. I
admit that my knowledge of these events isn't in depth but even I know
something of the Hotel David bombing and I'm pretty sure the
historical consensus is that it was a flat out terrorist act.
Also, Michael, you said that Dr. Ruth was actually part of a different
group and that the article I mentioned is incorrect. Do you have a
source for that? I'm really curious, I had no idea that Dr. Ruth was a
sniper :)
Cheers,
Judah
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Author: Sam
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347625
The Hotel was taken over by the British and turned into a military headquarters.
There were three warning calls made. One was ignored.
How often does an attack on a military instillation come with a warning?
.
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Author: Michael Dinowitz
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347626
> The only part that I'm going to respond to is the bit about the Hotel
> David bombing as I'm not familiar with the other intricacies you guys
> are talking about, but it was always my understanding that everyone
> has historically laughed at the post-bombing assertion that there were
News to me as it's a fact in historical circles.
> The hotel, as far as I'm aware, wasn't a military installation. I
Actually, it was the center of the British military rule of the area.
In effect, it was the main military installation they had.
> Also, Michael, you said that Dr. Ruth was actually part of a different
> group and that the article I mentioned is incorrect. Do you have a
> source for that? I'm really curious, I had no idea that Dr. Ruth was a
> sniper :)
Her bio has her as part of the Hagana but in no place does it place
her in the Irgun. If she was, it would be stated somewhere. Inclusion
in the Irgun would be a significant bio item.
My first comment on the this thread was supposed to be a double
entendre between guns and penises. I guess I have to work harder on
that comedy thing. Now if she was a guy..
Author: Judah McAuley
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347627
> My first comment on the this thread was supposed to be a double
> entendre between guns and penises. I guess I have to work harder on
> that comedy thing. Now if she was a guy..
Oh, I got and appreciated the comedy, believe me. I'm just even more
fascinated by the history, so I'm curious.
Hmm..went and looked up Dr. Ruth on Wikipedia and they do say Hanagh,
not Irgun, but they cite Snopes for that claim but Snopes doesn't cite
their reference. Now I'm really curious.
Judah
Author: Larry C. Lyons
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347628
The King David Hotel was used as a military headquarters and for
housing military personnel. In a way it was a legit target if the Lehi
was a legit resistance organization. But the group also had a bombing
campaign in London that targeted officials involved with the
independence negotiations and administration of mandate territories.
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Author: Larry C. Lyons
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347629
BTW I think we all got the joke.
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Author: Judah McAuley
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347630
My misunderstanding, then. I should do some more reading on this
particular time/place at some point.
Cheers,
Judah
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Author: Larry C. Lyons
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:34157#347631
I had to take a course in modern middle east history for my breadth
requirement in college. Funny how some things never leave you.
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May 18, 2013
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