just checked to make sure ColdFusion -community was online

I have been getting bombarded on another list about this and am surprised nobody here has mentioned it: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/03/gingrich-calls-obamas-trayvon-martin-remarks-disgraceful/ I know Maureen thinks we should ignore the idiots but I am not sure that's what's called for here. The SF NPR station has a morning call-in show that's normally quite intellectual, but today angry people were calling up who were absolutely convinced that Zimmerman was the victim. Apparently FOX news claims it's found a witness who says Trayvon was beating him up. No, really. I actually have found a link that substantiates that FOX says this. I get that this is latino.foxnews.com and Sanford is in Central Florida and Zimmerman is half Hispanic. http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/03/26/trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman-report-says/ But I mean, really? REALLY? Thought he was doing the right thing??????????

The original story, Orlando Sentinel, don't know the paper but if true this is damning to the boy. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

don't really know anything about the paper either, tho I'm pretty sure somehow, maybe from osmosis when I was in Florida, that it's like the local evening paper there. Don't know its politics but the entire Orlando area is pretty redneck. this might be one of those f*d up cases where everyone is telling the truth the way they see it. A few thoughts below, but it boils down to this for me. It's not self-defense when you're carrying a lethal weapon and trailing people who weren't bothering you. And who, even if your darkest suspicions are correct, may want to steal something at worst. By the way, I heard an interview with the author of the Stand Your Ground law today. Talk of the Nation I think. He said categorically that the intent was not to mandate following someone around with a gun in your wasteband because you think he's Up to No Good. Let's note in passing that the Sanford PD dispatched an officer to investigate a kid for wearing a hoodie while black.... Anyway. He also said that the law is not supposed to preclude an investigation. The intent was to make it unnecessary to take cases to trial that investigation shows to have been self defense. He also said that based on what he had read, between the two of them, Stand Your Ground would more likely have applied to Trayvon, who was, after all, being stalked by some weirdo in an SUV whose intentions did not seem peaceful. 1. Piss on the residue in the baggie. Why'd that get leaked, so we'd all go oh yeah, those black kids, they all do drugs? And maybe he *was* violent if he was smoking that demon Mary Jew Juana? That leak is actually one of the things that makes me think there *is* some institutionalized racism going on here. 2. Unknown politics for the newspaper so I'll take the story at face value for a second 3. The story relies heavily on the police account. The police are by definition not neutral since they are being investigated themselves. But I gather they accepted Zimmerman's story without question. Which is sorta the problem, see above. 4. Eventually someone is going to do a voice print on that 911 recording. Zimmerman is alive for comparison purposes. 5. Possibly Trayvon did turn around and confront Zimmerman. I seem to remember something like that from the story about the girl he was talking to on the phone. If so, depending on what happened exactly, he may have had the law on his side --see above. I've actually never been to Sanford, which is kinda an Orlando suburb, but I remember deciding not to investigate apartments there based on something I saw in the news. Details escape me. I decided against Orlando a bit later, btw,  mainly because I didn't want to work at Disney. I went over to the space coast and up to St Augustine, which I liked quite a bit but could't afford. I wound up in Jacksonville. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Marijuana doesn't make you violent though. The intent of the "leak" is simply to discredit the victim. However, this is a lot more information than I had read before. I had never read the details of Zimmerman's side of the story before this article. People are also saying that all the photos we have of Trayvon are years out of date, and in reality he was a 6'4" mountain of a man..err boy...

There is nobody except the Zimmerman and the eyewitnesses who know what happened that night, including the parents, Jesse and Al.  This is the same thing that happened to the Duke Lacrosse players - people making up their minds about what happened before investigating. A lynch mob has formed in Orlando based on misinformation and half-truths - and the pictures of Trayvon and Zimmerman are themselves half-truths - they aren't current, and it doesn't help the Trayvon cause when people who look past the vitriolic rheortic. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

That is a good point, we may never know what really happened. However, my contention is if Trayvon had shot & killed Zimmerman he would have been arrested that night. regardless of  'Stand Your Ground'. Put another way - if everything else happened exactly as it has been portrayed, but Zimmerman was black - he would have been arrested that night. And there is nothing anyone can say or show that will convince me otherwise. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> And there is nothing anyone can say or show that will convince me > otherwise. > You people are racist, and there is NOTHING you can so or say to convince me otherwise! Nice position.

I guess that was a bit harsh. OK, its possible I can be convinced otherwise. But I stand by my opinion that if Zimmerman was black or Trayvon had been the one with the gun, they would have been in jail that night. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

what's your point?  the kid was a suspended from school thug.  the man was Hispanic, neither were white. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I thought my point was quite clear: if it was a black man who pulled the trigger (regardless of the race of the victim), I firmly believe he would have been placed under arrest as soon as he was identified and located. The fact that Trayvon may or may not have been suspended from school is a red herring. Not only is it irrelevant, but George Zimmerman could have known that fact. Are you saying only whites can be racist? ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I guess that was a bit harsh. OK, its possible I can be convinced > otherwise. But I stand by my opinion that if Zimmerman was black or > Trayvon had been the one with the gun, they would have been in jail > that night. > I honestly don't know...and I'm not really sure how you can form that opinion. This police chief may be as honest and forthright as any around, and he may have determined that there was enough conflicting evidence, including evidence to support the claim of self defense, that until enough other evidence comes in to the contrary, that the shooter should remain free. Or you could be right, he could be a racist bastard and is giving this guy the benefit of the doubt only because he's white. But i'm not sure why you are more inclined to think the latter at this point. Have you heard him talk or do or say something unrelated to this case that makes you think he's not to be trusted?

Do you mean the police chief that has 'stepped aside' in the wake of how this was handled? :D ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I honestly don't know why I feel the way I do. Its just a gut feeling. I know full well I could be wrong. Doesn't change the way I feel. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I honestly don't know why I feel the way I do. Its just a gut feeling. > > I know full well I could be wrong. Doesn't change the way I feel. > I understand...my gut feeling is pretty much the same. But it's worthwhile to try and keep our gut feelings at bay until we can filter it with some solid factual information. Otherwise, we aren't any better than black people who instantly assume this was murder, or white/hispaic people who instantly assume this is self defense....simply based on skin color.

I'm not making any assumptions in the case, and I agree the marijuana stuff is BS and doesn't pertain. Now, people saying the Kid attacked the guy certainly does. You can't do that.  Not even if someone is following you around. Who knows. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Wait....so its wrong to go after a guy who is stalking you, but its OK for that guy to shoot you if you do? Not sure I agree with that logic. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Your allowed one hit, then the point is made. . > > Wait....so its wrong to go after a guy who is stalking you, but its OK > for that guy to shoot you if you do? > > Not sure I agree with that logic.

Not even that. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

They were in the open and in public. You have no expectation of privacy in public. You also don't have the right to assault anyone. So, maybe it's messed up, but that's the way it would work yeah. *IF* the kid actually assaulted the guy this case is totally different than what the media, his family, and all these celebrities are making it out to be. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

There is a line where deadly force is called for and one where it isn't.  I don't know what went down, but I find it somewhat difficult to believe that a 130lb kid was a huge threat to what looks to be a pretty stocky dude (Zimmerman). Especially a threat to the point that Zimmerman felt that his life was in danger. I just have a really hard time believing that. People who I have known who are martial arts experts (for example) have a slightly different standard for when deadly force is okay to use. They can easily kill someone during a simple barfight, and from what I have heard (from these individuals), if that happens they could be found guilty of a crime. People carrying around a gun need to have that same expectation. If someone punches you, it's not okay to turn around and just shoot that person for doing so. There are still lots of unknown details, and I really don't think there is much more for us to know at this point.  It's going to be a he said / she said situation. -Cameron ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- ...

From what I hear this kid isn't the little skinny dude the pics we have seen of this to this point make him out to be but rather larger. On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Cameron Childress <cameronc@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> From what I hear this kid isn't the little skinny dude the pics we have > seen of this to this point make him out to be but rather larger. > Yes, I heard the same. I think that last report (CNN?) was that he was about 6 feet tall but less than 150 lbs, which is a tall but pretty lightweight gangly kid. ...of course that could all be bullshit.  Who knows. -Cameron ...

"There is a line where deadly force is called for and one where it isn't. I don't know what went down, but I find it somewhat difficult to believe that a 130lb kid was a huge threat to what looks to be a pretty stocky dude" I don't know anything about this kids physical stature other than what I have read.  The last information I read was 6 foot 2 inches and 140 pounds. Doesn't sound intimidating. However, back in my teaching days, I coached a wrestler who was 6 foot 1 inches tall and wrestled in the 135 pound weight class.  He won the individual state championship for that class.  I will tell you that he could whip my heavyweight (around 220), and any other wrestler on the team, without much difficulty (except for the 126 pounder who finished 3rd in the state). J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

There you go.  An inch shorter than I am and 80 lbs lighter. I can tell you that doesn't sound very intimidating to me at all, but you never know. This kid may have been a superman-like athlete with fists like sledge hammers. -Cameron ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- ...

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- If he was 6'4", 250...would it really change anything?

> If he was 6'4", 250...would it really change anything? > It might. When it comes to the right to use deadly force, you really actually have to legitimately believe that your life was in danger. If a 5 year old carrying skittles punches me, can I also shoot that kid? There is a point at which deadly force is reasonable, and a point where it is not.  Where this situation falls within that spectrum is still a bit up in the air, but it sure *feels* like it's way closer to a skinny kid than a thug with a football player's build. Either way, I think there are several other things Zimmerman did wrong too. But at the very least, it's difficult for me to buy that he legitimately felt threatened (by a situation he put himself into in the first place). -Cameron ...

If he was 6'4", 250...would it really change anything? If, and I repeat if, Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten, then yes. He would have a harder time dislodging a 6' 4" 250 pounder.

so? He's still a kid walking down the street with a bag of candy, talking on the phone to a girl. Zimmerman thought be might be looking for something to steal. So he shoots him? The assumption is a bit racist but the logic is DEFINITELY racist. You can't pro-actively shoot black kids so they won't break into apartments, no matter how tall they are ;) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

if you're that scared, don't get out of your car, is my position. Zimmerman created the situation based on what I have seen. On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Camer ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> if you're that scared, don't get out of your car, is my position. > Zimmerman created the situation based on what I have seen. Yup. -Cameron ...

The description of Zimmerman's injuries, as reported, makes is sound like he got punched in the nose and fell backwards, hitting his head.  Sounds to me like Zimmerman approached him, Martin defended himself and punched him, Zimmerman fell, got back  up and fired off his weapon. They were in the open and in public. You have no expectation of privacy in public. You also don't have the right to assault anyone. So, maybe it's messed up, but that's the way it would work yeah. *IF* the kid actually assaulted the guy this case is totally different than what the media, his family, and all these celebrities are making it out to be. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- feeling. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

why would you not be able to defend yourself just because it happens you're outside when you need to? ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Attack != Defense. I can go outside and randomly follow people around if I want to.  They can't just assault me for it. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I think it depends. I know that I certainly have felt threatened when some guy followed me. But we're talking about someone a lot taller and a lot more male ;) We don't know if he felt angry or threatened, and if he felt threatened how much. At what point that justifies punching someone, assuming that's what  happened, I don't know either... I repeat, though, what they say in self defense classes is that if you're going to get physical, incapacitate. I'm actually going to be rather interested in further details when they come out and I think further details *will* come out because it sounds like that girl heard part of it and there were several people in apartments who heard some of it too. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

according to the guy that wrote the law, yes you can if you reasonably feel threatened enough. What "enough" might mean, or "reasonably" is the question. So Zimmerman got a bloody nose. Wah wah. He's alive. Based on what I know right now, I'd say decking him might be reasonable, banging his head on the road, if Trayvon did do that, maybe not. On the other hand what they tell you in self-defense classes is that if you are going to fight back fight back good and hard. I disagree with "thug" -- it's not proven. My son is 6'4 and that doesn't make him a thug. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I disagree with "thug" -- it's not proven. My son is 6'4 and that > doesn't make him a thug. I wish I was little bit taller, I wish I was a baller I wish I had a girl who looked good I would call her I wish I had a rabbit in a hat with a bat and a '64 Impala -Cameron ...

wheres the like button on this damned thing. On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Cameron Childress <cameronc@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

It's called "Send" ;) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Heard_on_Radio_Soulwax_Pt._2 Track 18-22 (including SkeeLo) is the "sweet spot" in this set... -Cameron ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

According to reports, there is a history here of discrimination against blacks by the police... > > I guess that was a bit harsh. OK, its possible I can be convinced > otherwise. But I stand by my opinion that if Zimmerman was black or > Trayvon had been the one with the gun, they would have been in jail > that night. > I honestly don't know...and I'm not really sure how you can form that opinion. This police chief may be as honest and forthright as any around, and he may have determined that there was enough conflicting evidence, including evidence to support the claim of self defense, that until enough other evidence comes in to the contrary, that the shooter should remain free. Or you could be right, he could be a racist bastard and is giving this guy the benefit of the doubt only because he's white. But i'm not sure why you are more inclined to think the latter at this point. Have you heard him talk or do or say something unrelated to this case that makes you think he's not to be trusted?

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > According to reports, there is a history here of discrimination against > blacks by the police... My understanding from people who've lived in Orlando is that it's got quite a few racial problems across the board.  I'm not talking about the police, I mean just as a city. Hey, Atlanta does too, mostly due to history, not by any conscious decision by the population to be assholes.  My understanding is that Orlando also has a pretty bad gang problem too and gangs tend (usually) to be isolated by race. So it's totally reasonable to expect that most people living there (across the board) are not completely neutral in their racial attitudes. -Cameron ....

Things are like that in the Chicago area with gangs.  Most gangs here are either black or Hispanic, but I am not going to call police or flow someone just because they are walking through my neighborhood and are black or Hispanic.  I do think that having that attitude is unreasonable and racist. On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > According to reports, there is a history here of discrimination > against blacks by the police... My understanding from people who've lived in Orlando is that it's got quite a few racial problems across the board.  I'm not talking about the police, I mean just as a city. Hey, Atlanta does too, mostly due to history, not by any conscious decision by the population to be assholes.  My understanding is that Orlando also has a pretty bad gang problem too and gangs tend (usually) to be isolated by race. So it's totally reasonable to expect that most people living there (across the board) are not completely neutral in their racial attitudes. -Cameron ....

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/26/452310/what-everyone-needs-to-kn ow-about-the-smear-campaign-against-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/ The pic that shows Martin as a thug, was faked...conservative run Twitchy was the source of the pic showing Martin wearing baggy pants and flipping the bird...they have since admitted to that not being a pic of Martin. On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > According to reports, there is a history here of discrimination > against blacks by the police... My understanding from people who've lived in Orlando is that it's got quite a few racial problems across the board.  I'm not talking about the police, I mean just as a city. Hey, Atlanta does too, mostly due to history, not by any conscious decision by the population to be assholes.  My understanding is that Orlando also has a pretty bad gang problem too and gangs tend (usually) to be isolated by race. So it's totally reasonable to expect that most people living there (across the board) are not completely neutral in their racial attitudes. -Cameron ....

All this is why I associate Republicans with evil. Everything they support seems to be contrary to the public good. On 27 March 2012 17:05, Eric Roberts <owner@threeravensconsulting.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > The pic that shows Martin as a thug, was faked...conservative run Twitchy > was the source of the pic showing Martin wearing baggy pants and flipping > the bird...they have since admitted to that not being a pic of Martin. I haven't seen the faked pic and frankly don't care to see it's contradiction either.  That edge media stuff I never really care to look into. Not relevant. -Cameron ...

The edge media tends to filter through to the mainstream media. There are also millions of people that read "edge" media and believe it to be true. So it does set the stage and frame the case for many people. On 27 March 2012 17:11, Camer ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> So it does set the stage and frame the case for many people. I choose not to be one of them. -Cameron ...

This was also used on Fox and several other media outlets.  Stormfront also helped spread the fake image... On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > The pic that shows Martin as a thug, was faked...conservative run > Twitchy was the source of the pic showing Martin wearing baggy pants > and flipping the bird...they have since admitted to that not being a pic of Martin. I haven't seen the faked pic and frankly don't care to see it's contradiction either.  That edge media stuff I never really care to look into. Not relevant. -Cameron ...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2012/03/27/when_in_doubt_smear_the_dead_kid.html ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

A Twitter aggregator called Twitchy, which tracks viral content, retracted a viral image when it discovered it was a fake.  And apologized. Sounds about right. . > > http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2012/03/27/when_in_doubt_smear_the_dead_kid.html

Yeah, I have heard that too. Can't remember where though. I am thinking that somebody said it in an interview. As best I remember, two shootings in five years of black men that were written off to stand your ground. Both shooters were white one the son of a police officer. Above details are from memory and a source I can't remember and so are not guaranteed. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

The fact of the matter is that Zimmerman was told to stop by police and ignored that and continued to pursue...that makes the stand your ground defense moot.  He went after Martin and proceeded to pull a gun on him. Whether he accidentally fired or not is irrelevant.  He murdered Martin and should be in jail pending an investigation.  Basic police procedures were ignored on this.  The fact also remains that if the roles were reversed...Martin would have been in jail so fast that they wouldn't have had a chance to read him his Miranda rights. There is nobody except the Zimmerman and the eyewitnesses who know what happened that night, including the parents, Jesse and Al.  This is the same thing that happened to the Duke Lacrosse players - people making up their minds about what happened before investigating. A lynch mob has formed in Orlando based on misinformation and half-truths - and the pictures of Trayvon and Zimmerman are themselves half-truths - they aren't current, and it doesn't help the Trayvon cause when people who look past the vitriolic rheortic. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

BTW...Zimmerman's dad is retired judge from that district...nothing fishy there, right? There is nobody except the Zimmerman and the eyewitnesses who know what happened that night, including the parents, Jesse and Al.  This is the same thing that happened to the Duke Lacrosse players - people making up their minds about what happened before investigating. A lynch mob has formed in Orlando based on misinformation and half-truths - and the pictures of Trayvon and Zimmerman are themselves half-truths - they aren't current, and it doesn't help the Trayvon cause when people who look past the vitriolic rheortic. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I thought Zimmerman's father was a retired Judge from Virginia. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

You might be right, but I don?t recall them saying VA... I thought Zimmerman's father was a retired Judge from Virginia. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- boy... > > > >

I di recall them saying that his mother worked in the clerk of courts office... I thought Zimmerman's father was a retired Judge from Virginia. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- boy... > > > >

http://news.yahoo.com/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-jackson-exploiting-trayvon-182013430.html On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Some relatively insignificant guy who was the president of the NCAAP in the 12th largest city in Texas (87th nationally) has a problem with some other polarizing and extreme guy...  I guess it's interesting on some level, but it ain't exactly news. In my opinion this sort of thing is not significant unless we collectively make it so.... -Cameron On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:24 AM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: > > > http://news.yahoo.com/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-jackson-exploiting-trayvon-182013430.html > > ...

He was a chapter president...ok...so?  Why is he important? Some relatively insignificant guy who was the president of the NCAAP in the 12th largest city in Texas (87th nationally) has a problem with some other polarizing and extreme guy...  I guess it's interesting on some level, but it ain't exactly news. In my opinion this sort of thing is not significant unless we collectively make it so.... -Cameron On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:24 AM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: > > > http://news.yahoo.com/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-jackson-exp > loiting-trayvon-182013430.html > > ...

Mainly because I agree with him. 1. Institutional racism when discovered in this country is quickly stamped out. 2.  Black on black crime occurs far more often than white on black crime, and black on white crime happens more than white on black crime too. 3.  Innocent until proven guilty.  The victim is dead.  The witness don't seem to have a coherent answer to what went down.  I see reasonable doubt all over the place. Simply put I see this as race baiting of the worst kind. On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

New video AT the police station shows a clean shaven, neat Zimmerman without the horrible injuries, blood and soiled clothing that should come from a beating. Did they allow him to go home, take a shower and clean himself up before taking him to the station I wonder? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-police-video_n_1386764.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2&pLid=147498 This is Video evidence, not hearsay.

Not only would they have needed to give him time shower and clean up, but they would have needed to give him a week or so for his supposed injuries to heal. On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Vivec <gel214th@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I guess his nose wasn't broken either. . On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Vivec <gel214th@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I just ran across this... http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/03/28/funeral-director-saw-no-signs-fight- trayvons-hands No signs of injures to Martin's hands that would indicate there was a fight or any kind of struggle...this is from the funeral director. New video AT the police station shows a clean shaven, neat Zimmerman without the horrible injuries, blood and soiled clothing that should come from a beating. Did they allow him to go home, take a shower and clean himself up before taking him to the station I wonder? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-police-video_n_13867 64.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2&pLid=147498 This is Video evidence, not hearsay.

Yeah but what does that mean for the Witnesses who say they saw Trayvon beating Zimmerman? His lawyer says that they have witnesses, and the police say they have eye witness reports. Would these people really lie so brazenly about something like this? On 29 March 2012 08:42, Eric Roberts <owner@threeravensconsulting.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Right off the bat, witnesses were saying that police were telling them what to say.  I remember hearing that from the initial reports of this incident. Yeah but what does that mean for the Witnesses who say they saw Trayvon beating Zimmerman? His lawyer says that they have witnesses, and the police say they have eye witness reports. Would these people really lie so brazenly about something like this? On 29 March 2012 08:42, Eric Roberts <owner@threeravensconsulting.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Source? On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Here is one article... http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909475-witness-mom-says-polic e-told-her-trayvon-martin-shooting-wasnt-self-defense Source? On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > Right off the bat, witnesses were saying that police were telling them > what to say.  I remember hearing that from the initial reports of this incident. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Did you read the article? I does say that the investigator was leading the boy, against Zimmerman. She said the investigator said he had children of his own "and seemed angered by it," saying, "I need to prove this was not self-defense." On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:42 AM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: > > Mainly because I agree with him. > > 1. Institutional racism when discovered in this country is quickly stamped > out. Doesn't mean that this crime was not racially motivated. > > 2.  Black on black crime occurs far more often than white on black crime, > and black on white crime happens more than white on black crime too. Does not mean that this crime was not racially motivated > > 3.  Innocent until proven guilty.  The victim is dead.  The witness don't > seem to have a coherent answer to what went down.  I see reasonable doubt > all over the place. This guy's story is falling apart at the seams. Everything he has said (or others have said on his behalf) is slowly turning out to be lies. Do you know who typically lies during a police investigation? Guilty people. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

And armed man initiated a confrontation with an unarmed, innocent man. Those are the undisputed facts. Whatever happens after said confrontation begins...even if the the victim starts beating the shit out of his attacker, or if he goes for his gun....is the fault of the instigator. 2nd degree murder. On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Scott Stroz <boyzoid@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:42 AM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: > Simply put I see this as race baiting of the worst kind. I can agree with the fact that people on all sides are using in ugly ways. I don't think I would paint the nation with that broad brush, however. Personally, if I had to choose, my favorite nutcase so far is this guy from the New Black Panther Party: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxIjibd_uy4 I ****REALLY**** can't wait to see the SNL skit based on this dude. He's like a characterture of a stereotype of a crazy person. ...but I don't take him seriously or believe many others do either. So, his biggest influence for me is his ability to make me laugh. -Cameron ....

I'm waiting for Holder to bring felony charges against him. I know, I'll be waiting a looooong time. . On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Camer ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

"Doesn't mean that this crime was not racially motivated." That logic cuts both ways. It doesn't mean that the crime was racially motivated. Also, at this point, we don't even have a crime.  There are no charges pending, unless something has changed recently. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jerry Barnes <criticalj@gmail.com> wrote: > > Also, at this point, we don't even have a crime.  There are no charges > pending, unless something has changed recently. At this point, we have a dead kid. Whether or not criminal charges have been filed, let's keep in mind that there was a kid walking back from the store with a bag of skittles and he is now dead. Juda

And it may be his own fault. On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Judah McAuley <judah@wiredotter.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

By Zimmerman's own account, he was stalking the kid through the neighborhood and the phone calls (the kid's and Zimmerman's) indicate that the kid was trying to get away from Zimmerman. I'm willing to hold open doubt and say that Zimmerman may not end up being legally culpable. However, not a single shred of any evidence points to it being the kid's "fault". Zimmerman had a gun. He stalked the kid. It's his fault. Criminally? I don't know. Morally? No doubts what so ever. It is Zimmerman's fault that kid is dead. End of story. Judah On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:22 AM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: > > And it may be his own fault.

"At this point, we have a dead kid.  Whether or not criminal charges have been filed, let's keep in mind that there was a kid walking back from the store with a bag of skittles and he is now dead." That is true. "It is Zimmerman's fault that kid is dead. " At this point, this is not true.  Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty and he has not even been charged with anything. This may change in the future. And if you want to use the "Morally" argument, it's still wrong.  It's not a crime or imoral to carry a gun if the proper process has been followed. There's no proof that he stalked the adolescent. All that exist right now are a few public facts(skewed liberally by both sides), lots of hearsay, and emotional profiteers propagating their own narratives (on both sides). Be wary of falling into the emotional morass of either side.  Wait for the facts and hope that justice prevails. Either way, I think things will turn out extremely bad.  I don't see a nice resolution for this. J - "It is the cause, not the death, that makes the martyr." -  Napoleon Bonaparte

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Jerry Barnes <criticalj@gmail.com> wrote: > > "It is Zimmerman's fault that kid is dead. " > > At this point, this is not true.  Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty > and he has not even been charged with anything. > > This may change in the future. Unless the kid grabbed the gun and pulled the trigger himself, it is Zimmerman who fired the shot and therefore his fault that the kid is dead. Justified? Seems unlikely but something radically different than what has been presented so far might come out. > And if you want to use the "Morally" argument, it's still wrong.  It's not > a crime or imoral to carry a gun if the proper process has been followed. >  There's no proof that he stalked the adolescent. All that exist right now > are a few public facts(skewed liberally by both sides), lots of hearsay, > and emotional profiteers propagating their own narratives (on both sides). There are hard facts (like recordings) that have been made public. Based on those, I cannot see a situation in which it is conceivable to say anything other than Zimmerman stalked him. Now, once he stalked him, it is possible that something went down at the point that the gun became involved and the kid died. What happened in those moments seems far less clear and that is where the areas of doubt seem to be resting. > Be wary of falling into the emotional morass of either side.  Wait for the > facts and hope that justice prevails. > > Either way, I think things will turn out extremely bad.  I don't see a nice > resolution for this. Agreed.

"Unless the kid grabbed the gun and pulled the trigger himself, it is Zimmerman who fired the shot and therefore his fault that the kid is dead." Uhhh.  There are at least two main narratives here.  One says Zimmerman killed Trayvon for some twisted or misguided reason and the other is that Zimmerman killed Trayvon in self-defense.  If the latter turns out to be true, then it is not Zimmerman's fault.  If it is the former, then yes, it is his fault.  At this time, fault should not be assigned.  The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, where both parties contributed to the tragedy, maybe one more so than the other. "There are hard facts (like recordings) that have been made public. Based on those, I cannot see a situation in which it is conceivable to say anything other than Zimmerman stalked him." When you say that "you cannot see", you are implying opinion.  You are entitled to your opinion, but you cannot call it fact. "What happened in those moments seems far less clear and that is where the areas of doubt seem to be resting." Exactly.  That's why people should wait for things to settle down and the facts to become apparent before assigning fault, accusing someone of a crime, accusing someone of stalking, of being a delinquent, of being a racist, of being a thug, of being a thief, and so on. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

> then it is not Zimmerman's fault. It may be legal and justified, but it's still unequivocally his fault.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Medic <hofmedic@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- County Jail will show you that Latinos do not get along with African Americans. Just sayin... In Miami and Florida in general, I'd bet the relationship is even worst. Their relationship is way more strained vs. either w/ Caucasians.

Simply because he was the CAUSE of death doesn't make it his FAULT.  Fault implies guilt, which cannot be ascertained at this point. On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Medic <hofmedic@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I guess I have a different definition of the words. I pulled life support from my mom. I killed her. It was my fault. Was it the right choice? Yes. Do I wish I had done something different? No. Was it still my actions that caused her death? Yes. Zimmerman, it seems, pulled the trigger. He killed the kid. It is his fault. He could have done things differently. Is he criminally culpable? I don't know. Judah On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 7:06 PM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

"It may be legal and justified, but it's still unequivocally his fault." At this point, all rationality has left the building. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

LOL...if this would have been a white person that got shot, Sam and Jerry would be salivating for his execution. "It may be legal and justified, but it's still unequivocally his fault." At this point, all rationality has left the building. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-audio-_n_1354909.html yeah, it's the Huffington Post but I haven't seen the audio of the 911 calls posted anywhere else.  Warning -- screams are haunting, person is clearly terrified. Names and addresses are edited out. On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

btw...Zimmerman very clearly says "fucking coons" On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Dana <dana.tierney@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Plenty of white people get shot all the time so I guess you're wrong. . > > LOL...if this would have been a white person that got shot, Sam and Jerry > would be salivating for his execution.

It's probably not a shocker to anyone, but NBC did some creative editing with the 911 tape. NBC played the conversation on the ?Today Show? as: ?This guy looks like he?s up to no good.  He looks black.? The unabridged version is: Zimmerman: This guy looks like he?s up to no good. Or he?s on drugs or something. It?s raining and he?s just walking around, looking about. Dispatcher: OK, and this guy ? is he black, white or Hispanic? Zimmerman: He look

"I guess I have a different definition of the words." Generally speaking, the word "fault" carries a negative connotation. From a dictionary:  "responsibility for wrongdoing or failure." So, you may use the word fault and view your actions in any way you want. I'll stick with the common vernacular. I doubt many readers of the list will say you did anything wrong in regards to your mother and that most readers would say that you did not kill her. You made a choice and were not a fault. I am just guessing though. "Zimmerman, it seems, pulled the trigger. He killed the kid. It is his fault." If, and again I repeat if, Zimmerman was defending himself, the criteria for fault is not there.  There is no wrong doing.  If Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon, was goading him, and then shot him, then he is at fault. "He could have done things differently." That's a different argument.  He could have done things differently and he should have done things differently.  By the same standard Trayvon could have done some things differently as well.  Since we still don't have a clear story, we don't know what those things are yet. "Is he criminally culpable?" That's the million dollar question.  Unfortunately, the media and some people want to give a verdict on the case without a trial. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Jerry Barnes <criticalj@gmail.com> wrote: > > Also, at this point, we don't even have a crime.  There are no charges > pending, unless something has changed recently. Just because no charges have been filed does not mean a crime was not committed. -- Scott Stroz --------------- You can make things happen, you can watch things happen or you can wonder what the f*&k happened. - Cpt. Phil Harris http://xkcd.com/386

"Just because no charges have been filed does not mean a crime was not committed." Okay. But what crime? There might be a crime of battery against Trayvon leading to a defensive shooting or there might be a crime committed by Zimmerman for his actions. I thought it was clear that when I said there was no crime, I meant there were no charges against anyone for a crime.  I should have spelled that out. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

I lived in Orlando for many years while attending college.  Locals call the paper The Slantinel.  The news coverage can be very good. They have excellent coverage of weather related stuff.  But politically they tend to be a bit to the right of Darth Vader. > > The original story, Orlando Sentinel, don't know the paper but if true this > is damning to the boy. > > http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

hehe. So is most of Florida. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I have been getting bombarded on another list about this and am > surprised nobody here has mentioned it: > > > http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/03/gingrich-calls-obamas-trayvon-martin-remarks-disgraceful/ > > Long story short, you chase me down, I'm going to deck you. If you then pull out a gun and shoot me claiming self defense and kill me, you?re a murderer.

What part of being told by police, "Do not pursue"  and continuing to pursue is in the realm of doing the right thing?  This screams PR show to me.  The fact ofd the matter is that he continued to purse Martin after being told by police not to, which makes him the aggressor in this case and he should be in jail, regardless if the shooting was accidental or not. I have been getting bombarded on another list about this and am surprised nobody here has mentioned it: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/03/gingrich-calls-obamas-trayvon-m artin-remarks-disgraceful/ I know Maureen thinks we should ignore the idiots but I am not sure that's what's called for here. The SF NPR station has a morning call-in show that's normally quite intellectual, but today angry people were calling up who were absolutely convinced that Zimmerman was the victim. Apparently FOX news claims it's found a witness who says Trayvon was beating him up. No, really. I actually have found a link that substantiates that FOX says this. I get that this is latino.foxnews.com and Sanford is in Central Florida and Zimmerman is half Hispanic. http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/03/26/trayvon-martin-attacked-geo rge-zimmerman-report-says/ But I mean, really? REALLY? Thought he was doing the right thing??????????

To be fair, he was told to 'stand down' by the 911 operator. Its possible the person he spoke with is NOT a police officer or even employed by the police. Different places do thigns differently with 911. Where I worked in NJ, the 2 counties I worked in regularly had the 911 services run by the County Sheriff's Office. The dispatchers were not law enforcement officials, an din those 2 counties, deputy's did not perform any patrol duties - they pretty much served warrants, guarded the courthouse and ran the county jail. On the flip side, where I live now, 911 is run by a separate group, not affiliated with the county sheriff's office. Either way, he was told to stand down...that is very clear from the tapes that have been released. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

But wouldn't they also have the legal force of a police officer?  I would think that if a 911 operator told someone to stand down and they didn't, there would be legal consequences to that?  To me that is being told to stand down by police. To be fair, he was told to 'stand down' by the 911 operator. Its possible the person he spoke with is NOT a police officer or even employed by the police. Different places do thigns differently with 911. Where I worked in NJ, the 2 counties I worked in regularly had the 911 services run by the County Sheriff's Office. The dispatchers were not law enforcement officials, an din those 2 counties, deputy's did not perform any patrol duties - they pretty much served warrants, guarded the courthouse and ran the county jail. On the flip side, where I live now, 911 is run by a separate group, not affiliated with the county sheriff's office. Either way, he was told to stand down...that is very clear from the tapes that have been released. > > What part of being told by police, "Do not pursue"  and continuing to > pursue is in the realm of doing the right thing?  This screams PR show > to me.  The fact ofd the matter is that he continued to purse Martin > after being told by police not to, which makes him the aggressor in > this case and he should be in jail, regardless if the shooting was accidental or not. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Trayvon was beating him up. No, really. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

That I am not sure about. Even where I worked in NJ, there were differences in the counties I worked. For example, one county they were sheriff's officers, but more like 'specials' - even had to wear uniforms similar to other sheriff's officers to work. In the other county, they were NOT sheriff's officers and actually wore 'civies' to work. I am not sure what legal authority. Also, in each of these counties, some municipalities handled 911 calls directly (in which case the 'dispatcher' was rarely an officer) - it really was/is screwed up. I don't want to speculate how things are in that town/city, was merely saying that not all 911 operators work directly for police departments nor are they required to be law enforcement officers. Either way, someone of authority told him to stop. He didn't. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

also the exact words were "you don't need to do that". But I have heard the clip and the tone definitely said "don't do that" ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----