Rural kids, parents angry about Labor Dept rule banning farm chores

Rural kids, parents angry about Labor Dept. rule banning farm chores A proposal from the Obama administration to prevent children from doing farm chores has drawn plenty of criticism from rural-district members of Congress. But now it?s attracting barbs from farm kids themselves. The Department of Labor is poised to put the finishing touches on a rule that would apply child-labor laws to children working on family farms, prohibiting them from performing a list of jobs on their own families? land. Under the rules, children under 18 could no longer work ?in the storing, marketing and transporting of farm product raw materials.? ?Prohibited places of employment,? a Department press release read, ?would include country grain elevators, grain bins, silos, feed lots, stockyards, livestock exchanges and livestock auctions.? The new regulations, first proposed August 31 by Labor Secretary Hilda Solis, would also revoke the government?s approval of safety training and certification taught by independent groups like 4-H andFFA, replacing them instead with a 90-hour federal government training course. .. Boswell chafed at the government?s rationale for bringing farms strictly into line with child-labor laws. ?They have said the number of injuries are higher for children than in non-ag industries,? she said. But everyone in agriculture, Boswell insisted, ?makes sure youth work in tasks that are age-appropriate.? The safety training requirements strike many in agriculture as particularly strange, given an injury rate among young people that is already falling rapidly. According to a United States Department of Agriculture study, farm accidents among youth fell nearly 40 percent between 2001 and 2009, to 7.2 injuries per 1,000 farms. Clark said the regulations are vague and meddlesome. ?It?s so far-reaching,? he exclaimed, ?kids would be prohibited from working on anything ?power take-off? driven, and anything with a work-height over six feet ? which would include the tractor I?m on now.? The way the regulations are currently written, he added, would prohibit children under 16 from using battery powered screwdrivers, since their motors, like those of a tractor, are defined as ?power take-off driven.? And jobs that could ?inflict pain on an animal? would also be off-limits for kids. But ?inflicting pain,? Clark explained, is left undefined: If it included something like putting a halter on a steer, 4-H and FFA animal shows would be a thing of the past. http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/25/rural-kids-parents-angry-about-labor-dept-rule-banning-farm-chores/2/ J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some

Good thing the nanny state is here to protect us. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I'm so glad this wasn't in effect when I was a kid. I started doing all this at 9 until my 20's. Driving tractors (my first tractor at age 9 was a John Deere 4010), feeding livestock, helping run machinery, holding calves for vet inspection, bailing hay, helping build barns, you name it. Damn. those were some of the best years of my life. The Government is so fecking stupid sometimes. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Werd!!! On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Erika L. Rich <elrich@ruwebby.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Same here.  I even drove Granddaddy's big combine, and certainly spent a lot of time with the animals.  Is it considering hurting the animal to milk the cow?  Or brand cattle?  I've done both of those. On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Erika L. Rich <elrich@ruwebby.com> wrote: > > I'm so glad this wasn't in effect when I was a kid. I started doing all > this at 9 until my 20's. Driving tractors (my first tractor at age 9 was a > John Deere 4010), feeding livestock, helping run machinery, holding calves > for vet inspection, bailing hay, helping build barns, you name it. Damn. > those were some of the best years of my life. The Government is so fecking > stupid sometimes.

Never mind actually killing and butchering them. Learned with chickens at an early age how to jerk/snap the neck. Filleting fish? Used to pull bales at my uncles place.  Shoot stuff too. On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Maureen <mamamaureen@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Guns and manual labor.... Why should anyone need to know those things.. On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 12:57 PM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Yeah, agreed way over rated. I mean who needs to actually know how to feed people. On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Brian Thornton <Brian@cfdeveloper.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

It's all good though, I'm gonna be in demand when the asteroid hits, or the poles shift. haha On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 1:00 PM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Wait, why are we talking about Poland? =) I agree. That work was transformative, and fun (to be honest). Even as I bitched about it at the time, looking back it was awesome. This is silly. And hopefully not really true. I haven't had a chance yet, but with the history of "not quite at all true" coming so heavily from the Republican Election Machine, I am holding my nose on this one till I can vet it this weekend. On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 1:00 PM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: > > It's all good though, I'm gonna be in demand when the asteroid hits, or the > poles shift.

I actually had something of a touching moment with my Dad the other night, and we do not have a very close relationship, but I thanked him for teaching me to grow things, to fight, to fish, to drive a standard, to shoot, and a great many other things. It was weird. On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Jerry Milo Johnson <jmiloj@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Yeah never mind the big equipment, dump truck at 13, combines, hay balers, unloading the hay wagons, shooting at gophers with the .22 ... duh. Stupid government. On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 12:57 PM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

"I mean who needs to actually know how to feed people." Three arrested, accused of illegally feeding homeless: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-06-02/news/os-homeless-feedings-arrests-20110601_1_group-feedings-feedings-in-public-parks-ordinance Bloomberg Strikes Again: NYC Bans Food Donations To The Homeless: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/19/bloomberg-strikes-again-nyc-bans-food-donations-to-the-homeless/ City To Ban Street-Corner Feedings of Homeless: http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/03/14/nutter-announces-ban-on-outdoor-feeding-of-homeless/ Las Vegas Makes It Illegal to Feed Homeless in Parks http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/us/28homeless.html?pagewanted=all Houston permit rule stops couple's effort to feed homeless http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Houston-permit-rule-stops-couple-s-effort-to-feed-1611603.php Homeless ministry says Dallas food ordinance restricts their religious freedom http://blog.chron.com/believeitornot/2011/11/homeless-ministry-says-dallas-food-ordinance-restricts-their-religious-freedom/ food nazis force pro chef to destroy organically grown food at public feast http://usapolitics.thoughts.com/theoneandonyTT/food-nazis-force-pro-chef-to-destroy-organically-grown-food-at-public-feast Fort Bragg wont let us feed homeless vets at the atheist festival http://freethoughtblogs.com/rockbeyondbelief/2012/03/27/fort-bragg-wont-let-us-feed-homeless-vets-at-the-atheist-festival/ Church Ordered to Stop Giving Away Free Water http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/church-ordered-to-stop-giving-away-free-water.html So, it may be that no one needs to learn how to feed people or should try to help people.  Just let good ole Uncle Sam and the corporate mega-farms take care of everyone. CBO: Cost of food stamp program increased 135 percent over previous 4 years http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/20/cbo-cost-of-food-stamp-program-increased-135-percent-over-last-4-years/ J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

Day by day and inch by inch Rome is burning people. On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Jerry Barnes <criticalj@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

"Rome is burning people." There are a lot of similarities between a declining Rome and the USA in its current state. Government taking care of the poor to keep them happy. Public spectacles to keep the poor distracted (professional sports and crappy TV). Moral decline of the citizens (have you listened to pop music lately?  It's all about self indulgence.Watch TV?  Ugggh.). A huge immigration problem.  Too many immigrants to be assimilated into society. A military that is stretched thin. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

That sounds  like the entirety of western civilization, except maybe the military part. Also, when has pop music been about anything but self indulgence?  It is a product that sells itself while selling other stuff.  It has become more blatant about promoting/reinforcing the I want it -> I need it -> I deserve it -> NOW. economic mentality. As far as moral decline .. every generation thinks the ones after it are more morally corrupt than theirs, until they completely lose touch and give up on trying to understand. Damn kids these days! On 4/26/2012 10:14 PM, Jerry Barnes wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I disagree about television. I think the quality of scripted TV programming  - not the reality crap - is far superior than anything in the 80s or 90s. Plus, there a lot of free alternatives to pop culture.  No one is forced to watch TV. On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 7:14 PM, Jerry Barnes <criticalj@gmail.com> wrote: > > Moral decline of the citizens (have you listened to pop music lately?  It's > all about self indulgence.Watch TV?  Ugggh.

I think it depends on what you're watching. There are some great shows out there, HBO, Showtime and AMC all have great series going.  The Big Bang theory has brought back intelligent comedy. However I think that there are way more garbage reality shows out there screwing up the noise to signal ratio than at any time previous. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

"I disagree about television. I think the quality of scripted TV programming - not the reality crap - is far superior than anything in the 80s or 90s. Plus, there a lot of free alternatives to pop culture.  No one is forced to watch TV." Maureen, there are surely some shows that are better scripted now than in prior decades.  However is anyone watching them?  If so, are they watching too much TV and ignoring reality (but absorbing soundbites)? How much quality do you see below? Last weeks cable rankings (no Jersey Shore, which usually wins). 1 Pawn Stars 2 Pawn Stars 3 Swamp People 4 WWE Entertainment (WWE Raw) 5 WWE Entertainment (WWE Raw) 6 MONSTERS, INC. 7 American Pickers 8 GAME OF THRONES 9 SpongeBob 10 LEGEND OF KORRA 11 NBA Basketball 12 SpongeBob 13 IN PLAIN SIGHT 14 NCIS 15 PENGUINS OF MADAGASCAR 16 REAL HOUSEWIVES ATLANTA 17 NCIS 18 Big Bang Theory 19 Big Bang Theory 20 Army Wives 21 NCIS USA 22 SpongeBob 23 Family Guy 24 Family Guy Last weeks broadcast TV ratings 1 American Idol 2 Modern Family 3 American Idol 4 Two and a Half Men 5 VOICE 6 2 Broke Girls 7 VOICE:RESULTS SHOW 8 GREY'S ANATOMY 9 MIKE & Molly 10 NCIS 11 How I Met Your Mother 12 Once Upon A Time 13 Dancing with the Stars 14 SURVIVOR: ONE WORLD 15 New Girl 16 DON'T Trust The B-APT 17 Amazing Race 20 18 Big Bang Theory 19 DANCING W/STARS RESULTS 20 Glee 21 Biggest Loser 13 22 Revenge 23 Rules of Engagement 24 OFFICE 25 Bones J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger

Hmm, I never watch anything on those lists. They all suck. That makes me sad. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Game of Thrones and Big Bang Theory are both excellent TV, glad to see they are getting the attention they deserve at least. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Never heard of GoT but since there's a buzz about BBT I watched a bit last night. I'm not a fan. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Game of Thrones is a fantasy show based on the "A song of ice and fire" novels by George R.R. Martin. Great show. How about Borgias, or Mad Men? ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I have my DVR set to record these: House - getting tired but I think it's ending anyway Touch - losing steam fast Mentalist CSI The Good Wife Blue Bloods Law and Order SVU The Office Raising Hope That's all I can think of. Sometimes I record  new shows at the beginning of the seasons to see if I like but I often forget or they don't last. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Game of Thrones is excellent, perhaps one of the best shows ever.  In Plain Sight is very good as is Grey's Anatomy when they aren't doing stories about moms and babies.  I've watched NCIS for years. It's a guilty pleasure - Mark Harmon and David McCallum are both favorites and I adore Pauley Perrette as Abby.  Big Bang Theory is especially funny for me because my son is a physicist - although thankfully he is more like Leonard than Sheldon. Other excellent scripted shows I like that aren't on your list: Criminal Minds, The Killing (dark and gloomy but very well done), Nurse Jackie, Weeds. Other guilty pleasures because I love cop shows:  Blue Bloods, Hawaii Five-O and Unforgettable. Best new show that just keeps getting better is Scandal.  Last night's ending was so shocking I dropped the remote. I also re-watch The Sopranos, The Wire,  Babylon-5 and Buffy - simply because in my opinion they are the best shows ever. I've never watched a single reality show.  I occasionally watch the talent shows if someone I know is competing. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

One thing about the restrictions on the farms...apparently this only applies to non-family farms.  So corporate farms cannot employ kids in the restricted environments, but mom and pop farms can put thier kis to work. Eric

Well the department of labor decided to do away with these proposed restrictions after overwhelming public outcry. Good to know something in government can still be responsive. On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

"Game of Thrones is excellent, perhaps one of the best shows ever.  In Plain Sight is very good as is Grey's Anatomy when they aren't doing stories about moms and babies.  I've watched NCIS for years. It's a guilty pleasure - Mark Harmon and David McCallum are both favorites and I adore Pauley Perrette as Abby.  Big Bang Theory is especially funny for me because my son is a physicist - although thankfully he is more like Leonard than Sheldon." "Other excellent scripted shows I like that aren't on your list: Criminal Minds, The Killing (dark and gloomy but very well done), Nurse Jackie, Weeds." "Other guilty pleasures because I love cop shows:  Blue Bloods, Hawaii Five-O and Unforgettable." "Best new show that just keeps getting better is Scandal.  Last night's ending was so shocking I dropped the remote." I have never seen an episode of any of these. "I also re-watch The Sopranos, The Wire,  Babylon-5 and Buffy - simply because in my opinion they are the best shows ever." I have seen a few episodes of Buffy and Babylon-5.  Decent, but not so impressive that I have been willing to go out of my way to watch more. "I've never watched a single reality show.  I occasionally watch the talent shows if someone I know is competing." I think both are a pox on TV.  I'd rather watch my Barack Obama Chia pet grow. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

Yeah I can't stand the talent and reality genres, to be either thier is little talent or reality in either. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Wow what happened there. I was trying to say I can't stand the reality or talent genres either, to be honest there is little talent or reality in either. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Just the other day I was wondering why the only music channel I have is country music and the only thing on regular tv is karaoke. They should do a music video channel with real musicians and call it...nm... I can't think of a name. . > > Wow what happened there. > > I was trying to say > > I can't stand the reality or talent genres either, to be honest there is > little talent or reality in either.

Bwhahaha. Remember when they actually played music? 120 minutes, headbangers ball? Dr. Dre and Ed Lover. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Ah man, yer speakin' the language of my youth....Yo MTV raps (even though i hated rap), Friday Night Rock Blocks. 120 minutes was awesome. Matt.....Pinfield!

120 Minutes came back on the air last year.  Matt Pinfield is the host again. He'd been hosting a morning radio show in New York with Leslie Fram (formerly of 99x in Atlanta), but the radio station changed formats and he left to pursue reviving the show. http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1668132/120-minutes-matt-pinfield.jhtml New episodes streaming from: http://www.mtvhive.com/watch/120_minutes/ -Cameron On Apr 27, 2012, at 6:30 PM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

But my ex-boyfriends farm, which is family owned, is a corporation. So define "corporate". Most huge farms are family run "corporations" since they are businesses. On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

My guess is it is the difference between your friends farm and a Tyson Chicken farm... ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Mr. Roberts, do you intentionally look for ways not to grasp what people are saying? She is asking what is the LEGAL difference? How will these rules be implemented differently between the two?  I own two now defunct business, one sole, one with share holders.  How will the government legally differentiate between my company and tyson? Number of employees?  Share of the market?  What are the metrics? On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Thank you Tim. Because my friend's farm? Is a multi-million dollar a year farming entity. No different from a Tyson Chicken Farm, which by the way, from the ones I have seen around this part of Georgia, are a lot smaller than my "friend's farm"    :) So the questions still remains. :) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Do you intentionally not read?  Hence the phrase "My guess is..."  Simple concept Tim... Seriously... ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I read it, and guess or not, you haven't provided any way of measuring the difference between a family run corporate farm and on run by big business. On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

" How will these rules be implemented differently between the two?  I own two now defunct business, one sole, one with share holders.  How will the government legally differentiate between my company and tyson? Number of employees? Share of the market?  What are the metrics? " This answer couldn't be more simple:  campaign contributions. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

bwahahahahaha ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I think you are just purposely being a fucktard and looking for an argument. chores I read it, and guess or not, you haven't provided any way of measuring the difference between a family run corporate farm and on run by big business. On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

You know man I haven't cursed at you or called you anything, just asked that you emand on what you said. You are always flying off the hook for no damned reason. On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Mot sure what DoA is using, but here is one definition. Corporate farm vs family farm Main article: family farm Cargill beef processing plant Farms are expensive to operate; input costs include farm machinery, crop insurance, fertilizers, irrigation, pesticides, fuel, and seeds. Some people question whether small family farms are still economically sustainable in the United States. However, there is a growing resurgence of interest in organic, free range, and locally grown family farm products.[citation needed] One major difference between independent farming and corporate farming is that a corporate farmer is usually a contracted employee, rather than the owner of the farm. However, ownership itself does not mean independence. An owner-operated farm today faces many constraints that are completely out of the owner's control. Most of these can be seen in light of increasing concentration of ownership, not only of farms, but of the equipment and inputs necessary to farm, and the available sales channels.[citation needed] Production contracts are a primary means of control and vertical integration of family farms. These are of two general types. Production management contracts specify the methods farmers must use. Resource-providing contracts require the contractor to also provide materials (e.g) and equipment. Under the latter, increasingly prevalent arrangement, the family farm owns its land and "sells" its output, but retains no real decision making control over the essential farming activities, like crop selection, equipment purchase, production methods, sales channels, and buyers.[citation needed] A prime example is the drive to constantly improve production efficiency, as measured by farm output. By using successive waves of new technology (in agrichemicals, mechanization, crop varieties, drugs, etc.), output has steadily risen over the past decades. This in turn has contributed to steadily driving down the price farmers can get for their output. As the cost of remaining in production rises, and income falls, only the larger business entities, with the ability to profit from outside of the immediate farming activities (such as through financial services, agrichemical production, food distribution, and so forth) can afford to remain in the game.[citation needed] In terms of income disparity, large family farms, rather than factory farms, have the greatest impact. Although 14% of total food production comes from the two percent of all farms in the United States that are owned by corporations or other non-family entities, 50% of food production comes from the biggest two percent of all farms. In 1900, it came from 17% of all farms.[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_farming#Corporate_farm_vs_family_farm chores I read it, and guess or not, you haven't provided any way of measuring the difference between a family run corporate farm and on run by big business. On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

We're getting closer. I still don't see anything there that really tells you specifically how to differentiate between the two.  Are "citations needed" markers, so no telling the accuracy of the article. I would just feel better about it if there was some way to measure the difference. On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I am not a farmer...so I can't get any more specific.   The markers are from the wiki article.  This doesn't claim to be the governments definition...but it seems to be a reasonable on. chores We're getting closer. I still don't see anything there that really tells you specifically how to differentiate between the two.  Are "citations needed" markers, so no telling the accuracy of the article. I would just feel better about it if there was some way to measure the difference. On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Eric Roberts < owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- business. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- corporation. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I don't watch any of the shows on either list. It's not that I am a TV snob though.  I will spend quite a few hours in front of the tube during football season and college basketball. Regardless, it looks like there are a few shows that are endorsed as being good.  If that's the case, why are people spending so much time watching the other crap? Does it even matter?  It's not like watching the news would improve our country since the networks are completely compromised.  Citizens would only learn the approved message. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

Because some people only have taste in their mouth? > > Regardless, it looks like there are a few shows that are endorsed as being > good.  If that's the case, why are people spending so much time watching > the other crap

"Because some people only have taste in their mouth?" and mud in their heads. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

Well, to be fair, a lot of these are probably intended to keep parks/places from turning into semi permanent soup kitchens. Now, what is intended and what is being done are likely very different in some cases. I like the one where the law specifies within a certain distance of city hall. (paraphrased) The law doesn't apply to just homeless, but any group of people. So, you want to hold a lengthy protest in the park?  You better bring your own food because arranging for someone to feed the group is illegal without a permit.  No food at the location means people constantly coming and going.  People constantly coming and going means difficulty in getting anything organized or accomplished. The man isn't preventing the protest, but they are making as difficult as possible. On 4/26/2012 9:51 PM, LRS Scout wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- >> >> J

good points On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 7:32 PM, PT <cftodd@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

"Well, to be fair, a lot of these are probably intended to keep parks/places from turning into semi permanent soup kitchens." In some cases.  Read the Bloomberg article.  How this douche bag got elected multiple times in NYC is incomprehensible unless you believe people just don't care anymore. Here's a little excerpt: Richter has been collecting food from places like the Ohav Zedek synagogue and bringing it to homeless shelters for more than 20 years, but recently his donation, including a ?cholent? or carrot stew, was turned away because the Bloomberg administration wants to monitor the salt, fat and fiber eaten by the homeless. Yes, that's right.  It's better for the homeless to be hungry than to have a meal that might have too much sodium or fat and not enough fiber. J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton

"As far as moral decline .. every generation thinks the ones after it are more morally corrupt than theirs, until they completely lose touch and give up on trying to understand." I'll agree with this up until a point.  Sometimes an event happens that will reset the moral clock (the Great Awakening is an example), but for the most part, it's true. The question is:  Is the next generation more morally corrupt?  That is, is the previous generation correct in the assumption? I say yes. In the example of music, have the lyrics become even more extreme every generation?  Is there more to it than just the economic gratification you mentioned?  Isn't there more about total gratification? Where have the love songs gone? J - Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. - Henry Kissinger Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel. - John Quinton