Chemical warfare agents released over forest!!

use of chemical warfare that many seem to forget when talking about the great danger posed by "rogue nations" with access to chemical/biological weapons. The US has only just announced it will assist with cleaning up contamination from 1975 chemical warfare attacks with Agent Orange in Vietnam. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-19190509 Several MILLION people affected in Vietnam.

Look, Agent Orange as horrible as it was is a defoliant.  Not a munition. Thats like calling deet or some shit a weapon. Bad idea, yes. Chemical warfare, no. On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 7:47 PM, Vivec <gel214th@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Bullshit, Tim. Even if you (dubiously) claim that no one knew for certain the effects of Agent Orange on humans, it's purpose was to literally destroy the countryside. It was meant to not only defoliate the forest but to destroy the food crops and force an urbanization of the population, concentrating them and making it easy for our forces to fight against the perceived enemy. Starving the countryside is a munition, period, even if you don't think it is going to destroy the humans directly. And, really, herbicides and defoliants mixed with jet fuel? Who could possibly think that might be toxic to humans, right? For fucks sake dude. It was a cruel act of war on par with mustard gas. Judah On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 4:58 PM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

So then a firefighter dropping chemicals on a fire is practicing chemical warfare? Farmers spraying their crops from the air are practicing chemical warfare? Agent orange was a defoliant, nothing more. Relax and take a deep breath my friend.It's OK. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Dropping chemicals combined with jet fuel on a fire (which they did in Vietnam), uh, yeah. Chemical warfare. Farmers spraying crops with pesticides and herbicides while farm workers are in the fields (which has happened here), yup. "just a defoliant" my ass. It was a purposeful starvation campaign and let's see you "take a deep breath" when you get toxins and jet fuel dumped on you. I'll give you a hint...not the best time to take a deep breath. Judah On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Bruce Sorge <sorgeb@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

The US Government has a habit of trying things out in combat. Agent Orange being one of them. As recent as Desert Storm, we were told that we had to take some pills that were supposed to counteract or at best water down the effects of chemical and biological weapons had they been used by Iraq. AND we were forced to sign a waiver absolving the government of any responsibility for side effects which at the time were not known. That and the use of depleted uranium rounds in our Main Battle Tanks were unfortunate aspects of modern warfare. Even today new things are tried out in war to see how they work. Good time to be in the defense business for sure. Anyway, lets put this agent orange thing into perspective: Agent Orange was used as a defoliant to; 1. remove leaves from trees thus denying the enemy cover to fight effectively 2. To deny villagers of crops thus forcing them to the US controlled areas and denying the enemy rural bases for which to rest and resupply with food. Agent Orange had been around since the 1940's so yeah, I am sure that the effects on humans were known to at least a certain extent, however it was never declared an illegal means of fighting according the the Law of Armed Conflict, so it was used, simple as that. And lets not forget that the US was not the only country to use chemicals. Many other countries have used and continue to use chemical and biological weapons. Personally I am all for any means in which we can use to win, because as Patton said, America loves a winner. America does not tolerate losers. (I am paraphrasing of course) I for one like to be a winner. On Aug 9, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Judah McAuley <judah@wiredotter.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

So would that make you a winner with leukemia or other cancers? ------------------------------------ Three Ravens Consulting Eric Roberts Owner/Developer owner@threeravensconsulting.com tel: 630-486-5255 fax: 630-310-8531 http://www.threeravensconsulting.com ------------------------------------ The US Government has a habit of trying things out in combat. Agent Orange being one of them. As recent as Desert Storm, we were told that we had to take some pills that were supposed to counteract or at best water down the effects of chemical and biological weapons had they been used by Iraq. AND we were forced to sign a waiver absolving the government of any responsibility for side effects which at the time were not known. That and the use of depleted uranium rounds in our Main Battle Tanks were unfortunate aspects of modern warfare. Even today new things are tried out in war to see how they work. Good time to be in the defense business for sure. Anyway, lets put this agent orange thing into perspective: Agent Orange was used as a defoliant to; 1. remove leaves from trees thus denying the enemy cover to fight effectively 2. To deny villagers of crops thus forcing them to the US controlled areas and denying the enemy rural bases for which to rest and resupply with food. Agent Orange had been around since the 1940's so yeah, I am sure that the effects on humans were known to at least a certain extent, however it was never declared an illegal means of fighting according the the Law of Armed Conflict, so it was used, simple as that. And lets not forget that the US was not the only country to use chemicals. Many other countries have used and continue to use chemical and biological weapons. Personally I am all for any means in which we can use to win, because as Patton said, America loves a winner. America does not tolerate losers. (I am paraphrasing of course) I for one like to be a winner. On Aug 9, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Judah McAuley <judah@wiredotter.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

While not as drastic as cancer I am a winner with hair-loss, chronic joint pain, back issues, PTSD and insomnia from four deployments. Hair-loss and joint pain are from Desert Storm and my back, PTSD and sleep issues from the other deployments to Iraq and the 'Stan. No one said winning was easy. I am not discounting the issues that veterans from 'Nam have. I have nothing but mad respect for those men and women who fought there, especially grunts. It sucks that they had to endure having chemicals dropped on them by our own people, but as I said before the US has a nasty habit of trying things out in war, even it it's on us. It is what it is. On Aug 9, 2012, at 7:08 PM, "Eric Roberts" <owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > So would that make you a winner with leukemia or other cancers?

"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is, the sooner it will be over. -General William T. Sherman I have several things I'm service connected for.  Bone/joint stuff.  My left foot breaks all the time, skin issues, hearing loss, tinnitus, PTSD. Like Bruce I was also given experimental and under-tested drugs like those for malaria and and various vaccines, at least one of which the congress ended up banning.  I think my skin problems come from a combination of exposure to burn pits and various chemicals and the environment of the various countries I've been deployed to. Look, the intention of Agent orange was not to directly kill or wound the enemy.  That's what a weapon is, something which I can shoot or stab you in the face.  comparing this to mustard gas is rediculous, have you ever seen what that does?  Is it horrible that it turned out this way, sure.  However this was no more a chemical warfare situation than all the cases of asbestos exposure, or that to uranium like Bruce mentioned, something that I'm sure we've both been exposed to n large amounts (yes I played mech infantry for a while, hated it but I did it.)/ On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Bruce Sorge <sorgeb@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Speaking of General William T. Sherman and his march to the sea, you may need to go back and read up on your military history, Tim. General Sherman used the destruction of the countryside and the food crops as an active weapon in his arsenal. Soldiers dating back to the middle ages would salt crop lands to render them infertile. Destruction of the means of livelihood, starving out the countryside, has always been a weapon in the arsenal of armies and the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam was no exception. Agent Orange wasn't something that just happened to be convenient to make the enemy easier to see. It was a weapon of war, to drive the populace from the countryside, to starve them out, to render them ill and hungry and desperate. Maybe, tactically, it was considered worth it. I'm not debating that point. But don't try and downplay what was happening by saying "oh, it was just a defoliant" like you were spraying some weeds in your driveway with Roundup. It was a weapon. It was an act of war. I just don't feel that pretending otherwise is being intellectually honest. Cheers, Judah On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 10:49 PM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

The Russians used the same slash and burn tactics on the Germans when the Germans invaded Russia in WWII to cut off their resupply efforts.  It's one of the reasons the Germans got their asses kicked by the Russian winter. ------------------------------------ Three Ravens Consulting Eric Roberts Owner/Developer owner@threeravensconsulting.com tel: 630-486-5255 fax: 630-310-8531 http://www.threeravensconsulting.com ------------------------------------ Speaking of General William T. Sherman and his march to the sea, you may need to go back and read up on your military history, Tim. General Sherman used the destruction of the countryside and the food crops as an active weapon in his arsenal. Soldiers dating back to the middle ages would salt crop lands to render them infertile. Destruction of the means of livelihood, starving out the countryside, has always been a weapon in the arsenal of armies and the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam was no exception. Agent Orange wasn't something that just happened to be convenient to make the enemy easier to see. It was a weapon of war, to drive the populace from the countryside, to starve them out, to render them ill and hungry and desperate. Maybe, tactically, it was considered worth it. I'm not debating that point. But don't try and downplay what was happening by saying "oh, it was just a defoliant" like you were spraying some weeds in your driveway with Roundup. It was a weapon. It was an act of war. I just don't feel that pretending otherwise is being intellectually honest. Cheers, Judah On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 10:49 PM, LRS Scout <lrsscout@gmail.com> wrote: > > "War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it > is, the sooner it will be over. -General William T. Sherman > > I have several things I'm service connected for.  Bone/joint stuff.   > My left foot breaks all the time, skin issues, hearing loss, tinnitus, PTSD. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I'm behind all that 100%, Bruce. All those reasons are why I'm objecting to people who are trying to say it wasn't a chemical weapon. It may not have been illegal to use and whether or not it was wise to use it is a different argument all together. I'm just saying that to pretend that it wasn't meant as a chemical weapon is rather disingenuous. Cheers, Judah On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Bruce Sorge <sorgeb@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

If Iran's soldiers covered US Soldiers with Baygon from the air ...would that be a chemical weapon? On 9 August 2012 20:10, Bruce Sorge <sorgeb@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Technically yes...a firefighter is using that as a chemical weapon against fire.  A farmer is using it as a chemical weapon against insects... ------------------------------------ Three Ravens Consulting Eric Roberts Owner/Developer owner@threeravensconsulting.com tel: 630-486-5255 fax: 630-310-8531 http://www.threeravensconsulting.com ------------------------------------ So then a firefighter dropping chemicals on a fire is practicing chemical warfare? Farmers spraying their crops from the air are practicing chemical warfare? Agent orange was a defoliant, nothing more. Relax and take a deep breath my friend.It's OK. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Its purpose may not have been to directly affect humans, but it did.  It was used as a weapon to clear the jungles of Vietnam. ------------------------------------ Three Ravens Consulting Eric Roberts Owner/Developer owner@threeravensconsulting.com tel: 630-486-5255 fax: 630-310-8531 http://www.threeravensconsulting.com ------------------------------------ Look, Agent Orange as horrible as it was is a defoliant.  Not a munition. Thats like calling deet or some shit a weapon. Bad idea, yes. Chemical warfare, no. On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 7:47 PM, Vivec <gel214th@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----