Salary change when rolling permanent

Good afternoon, I am currently contracting at a great firm that is probably going to offer me a permanent position in the near future.  I am contracting through an agency, which I know for a fact has a limited mark-up due to the number of people the agency places here, but I don't know the mark-up percentage.   My question is, what percentage of my contracting income is it reasonable to ask for as permanent income?  One of my peers here actually got a smidgen more when she rolled permanent, but I don't know what her contract rate was.  I really want to work for them and I will probably use my wish to telecommute as a bargaining tool, (this firm is totally into telecommuting), so I have some wiggle room.  I just don't know if 70% is reasonable or 90%.   I live in the Tampa Bay area, if that helps at all. Thanks for any info, reference, resources, war stories, or good, clean jokes you can provide, Kathryn

  This is a tricky subject no matter how you slice it.   Most companies budget 25%-35% of a persons salary for benefits.  So, theoretically, that is the amount your income will drop when moving from a contractor to a full time employee, but you'll notice no change in compensation, because you are no longer paying for benefits.   If you want to assume that the contractor is getting paid twice what you are (If you get paid $50 an hour, they are collecting $100).  I don't think it is unreasonable to expect $65-75 an hour as a full-time employee.   A few other thoughts:   Are you working for the contractor as a W9 employee or a 1099?  If a 1099, you'll no longer have to pay the "employer" half of your social security contribution.   Can you find out how much the agency is marking you up?  Can you find out?  There is chance the agency will get their recruiters fees if you are brought on full time.   Do you know what this company budgets for benefits?  Can you find out? At 12:48 PM 2/17/2005, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Books: <http://www.instantcoldfusion.com> My Recording Studio: <http://www.fcfstudios.com> -- When did Reality Become TV

Holy Cow!!! I need to reconsider my situation if this is even a high average. I've been developing CF for about 7 years and I only dream of getting the lowest figure you listed. >   If you want to assume that the contractor is > getting paid twice what you > are (If you get paid $50 an hour, they are > collecting $100).  I don't think > it is unreasonable to expect $65-75 an hour as a > full-time employee. >      __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com

Been my experience you only get those rates from rather big companies. My pay range has fluctuated so much over the years of doing CF that I'd hate to see a graph on it. On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:50:54 -0800 (PST), Joshua OConnor-Rose <whiffle_bat@yahoo.com> wrote: > Holy Cow!!! I need to reconsider my situation if this > is even a high average. I've been developing CF for > about 7 years and I only dream of getting the lowest > figure you listed.

Wow...where were ya before the bubble burst?? ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com

  I chose those numbers because 100 is easy to break up into percentages.   All that said, the amount you make really comes down to how well you sell yourself to the client / employer / recruiter.  A lot of the things I've done (Write books, speak at conferences, write articles, etc.. ) help me convince the client that I can get the job done, and that is often worth bucks in the compensation department.   Of course, I've lost just as many projects because I'm "too expensive". At 03:50 PM 2/17/2005, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Books: <http://www.instantcoldfusion.com> My Recording Studio: <http://www.fcfstudios.com> -- When did Reality Become TV

Man, I need to write a book and speak at some conferences.  Do I have to be an official speaker or can I just hang out in the parking lot? ;) On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:03:35 -0500, Jeffry Houser <jeff@farcryfly.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

  You could always become a heckler.  Maybe you can be "that Guy" who was wearing a BlueDragon T-Shirt at Max.   I don't want to give the impression that I'm rolling in dough, though.  I don't make $100 an hour.  Many days I'm just happy to be working at all.   To put price into perspective, from my own experience...    When I was trying to hire a sub-contractor a bunch of months ago, I got people quoting hourly rates from $10 to $100.    The full-time contractors were more than people doing this in their spare time.    Consultants, who usually work for one client at a time and get guaranteed 40 hours a week usually go for a cheaper hourly rate than small-business owner folks who try to juggle multiple projects and clients at once.   For the record...   The first person I hired was on the high end of the middle tier of the pay scale.  She either didn't read the spec, didn't understand the spec, or had no ability to follow the spec and got fired pretty quickly.   The second person I hired was on the low end of the middle tier of the pay scale.  I have no complaints.  As with all clients / vendor relationships, I'm a bigger roadblock to getting the job done than he is.   Very few people took the time to write a cover letter of any sort.  Most of the responses I got were along the lines of "Hey, I know ColdFusion, I'd can do the job." At 04:06 PM 2/17/2005, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Books: <http://www.instantcoldfusion.com> My Recording Studio: <http://www.fcfstudios.com> -- When did Reality Become TV

haha ... well I have never made it to one of those conventions so have not been able to wittness such hecklers.  I am planning to go to CFUnited this year though, so maybe I could dig up some odd-ball shirt and be "That Guy" I doubt there are many CF people just flat out rolling in dough.  :) I make decent money with my current "9-5" contract, though the net 50 terms really hurt to this day.  Then on top of that I try to do small contracts for people, not really for the money, though it is nice to get, but more so for exposure to different styles, needs, etc. On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:09:54 -0500, Jeffry Houser <jeff@farcryfly.com> wrote: >   You could always become a heckler.  Maybe you can be "that Guy" who was > wearing a BlueDragon T-Shirt at Max. > >   I don't want to give the impression that I'm rolling in dough, though.  I > don't make $100 an hour.  Many days I'm just happy to be working at all.

65+ also depends on your Market area, in DC thats believable but in Ohio I wouldn't expect to see 65+ very often. As for CFunited if I go I'll dig around the cats litter box and clean off my .NET shirt and wear it :) Adam H On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:59:29 -0600, Aar ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

So you will be "That stinky guy"  ? ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

If you wear the .Net shirt, you can hang out with the Microsoft guys who are one of the sponsors of CFUnited. CFUNITED, where everyone is "that guy". Sandy 65+ also depends on your Market area, in DC thats believable but in Ohio I wouldn't expect to see 65+ very often. As for CFunited if I go I'll dig around the cats litter box and clean off my .NET shirt and wear it :) Adam H On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:59:29 -0600, Aar ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- working at all. > >

And here I thought that no one noticed when I wore my BD t-shirt. I did get a lot of reations when I wore an Allaire t-shirt though. larry On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:09:54 -0500, Jeffry Houser <jeff@farcryfly.com> wrote: >   You could always become a heckler.  Maybe you can be "that Guy" who was > wearing a BlueDragon T-Shirt at Max.

>  Of course, I've lost just as many projects because I'm "too expensive". Boy do I hate that one...client's that doon't want their apps to work "too correctly" ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com ----- Original Message ----- /54

As an HR Manager / Recruiter, my suggestion would be for you to do a salary survey of your local area to determine what the current market rate is for someone with your skill set (look at www.salary.com).  This will give you an idea of where to start at least.  You will definately not see a salary of $65/$75 per hour as a salaried permanent employee - it is very unreasonable and not realistic.  You have to account for the total compensation package including benefits, etc.  You can leverege more on the base salary if you do not require medical/dental benefits, etc.  This does have a value and cost to the company.   On average - the mark-up on a bill rate they are probably billing you out for has been about a 75% mark-up of the rate you are being paid.  On the average, CF Developers are seeing anywhere from $65,000 - $85,000 depending on experience and location.  Of course, it depends on the size & scope of the project, and if you are hired to do one specific thing or more long term.  It is unusual to see CF Developers with a base salary of higher than $85,000, but I have seen a few earning $90,000+ that have over 15 years experience as a Developer / Architect.   Of course, with the extensive years of experience - 8 or more years typically include other languages (and more often object oriented) outside of CF such as Java, etc.   The Developers I tend to see with base salaries of $90,000 and above are J2EE Developers and .Net Developers.  This has been the market trend for the past few years. I have seen CF becoming a very popular language and a growing market over the past 8 months.  This will drive the salaries higher - as the need for CF folks overtakes the available talent in the market.  It will become a "candidate driven market".   I am far from a Developer - but that is my take from the HR side of the house.   Definately do your research on current market salary in the Tampa Bay area, market demand for CF Developers in the Tampa Bay area (often - the "demand" for the talent will driver the higher salaries), and benefits package being offered. One suggestion is for you to let them make you an offer, and you determine if that offer is acceptable or not based on the research you have done.  You can always go back in and state that while you are not comfortable accepting the salary they are offering - you would accept $___.

Thanks a ton, it relieves only some of my anxiety. Although I'm still below your bottom and I have a range of ability in programming (been working on perl and asp in the last two weeks). I'm still not entirely relieved. But I believe I'm locationally challenged. Chicagoland seems to be tighter on the pocketbook with CF developers. But it certainly helps. I'm giving this one at least till the first review. Thanks again -Joshua --- Charlotte Dodge <cdodge@viatechinc.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Yes.  Definitely let them make you an offer.  When I was brought on permanently at my current job, they made me an offer first.  Turns out the offer was a 28% increase in what I was already making.  They asked if that was acceptable and I asked where I needed to sign. :) [snip] One suggestion is for you to let them make you an offer, and you determine if that offer is acceptable or not based on the research you have done.  You can always go back in and state that while you are not comfortable accepting the salary they are offering - you would accept $___.

  Of course you could have probably gotten more...   Never throw out your best offer first.  First rule of negotiating.  :-) At 05:08 PM 2/17/2005, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Books: <http://www.instantcoldfusion.com> My Recording Studio: <http://www.fcfstudios.com> -- When did Reality Become TV

Well, I had just finished working a tech support job for a year to help make ends meet while looking for a CF job, so I wasn't in a mood to argue :) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

  I can't blame you for that.   It is hard on the job seeker.  How often do we get to negotiate a new job?  Maybe once every 3-5 years.  How often does an HR person negotiate a position?  Probably a few times a week. At 09:21 AM 2/18/2005, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

The part that gets me is that HR should have no part in the employment process beyond paperwork filing.  Why the appointment of technical positions is left to clueless HR people is beyond me, but HR seem to crave this power.  When a job is opened the hiring manager should be told the budget range and it should be up to that person to decide how much the new hire is paid depending on the skills needed for the job, not personality match with the HR person. No offense intended to anyone here, just a general annoyance. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include <stdjoke.h>