Where are all the mid-level ColdFusion developers?

I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?

LOL....one could argue the converse of that, too.  Where are all the jobs for the mid-level developers?  Seriously, this is the first one I have seen in a while.  Being a mid-level developer myself, I keep an eye out for them, somewhat.  I am happy where I am at, but it never hurts to look over the fence to "the other side"! Let me ask a question - is $50K a "good" salary for a NYC job?  In other words, could one live comfortably with that salary in that region?  I'd take that salary in a heartbeat here in New Hampshire, but I'm sure that our living expenses are much lower that in NY. Ray Daniel Brown wrote: > I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. > > Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). > > All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?

Not really. I had a 'contract' with a company which turned out to be for 54k a year on a 1099 in NY. It was not enough to keep me afloat especially after they didn't pick up my medical as they had agreed to (among other things). For someone with a family, a job has to have medical or else it's an extra 12k a year or so in insurance. For a single, 50k might be ok, but.... > Let me ask a question - is $50K a "good" salary for a NYC job?  In other > words, could one live comfortably with that salary in that region?  I'd > take that salary in a heartbeat here in New Hampshire, but I'm sure that > our living expenses are much lower that in NY.

50K a year in Southern California would get you nowhere... LOL....one could argue the converse of that, too.  Where are all the jobs for the mid-level developers?  Seriously, this is the first one I have seen in a while.  Being a mid-level developer myself, I keep an eye out for them, somewhat.  I am happy where I am at, but it never hurts to look over the fence to "the other side"! Let me ask a question - is $50K a "good" salary for a NYC job?  In other words, could one live comfortably with that salary in that region?  I'd take that salary in a heartbeat here in New Hampshire, but I'm sure that our living expenses are much lower that in NY. Ray Daniel Brown wrote: > I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. > > Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). > > All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? > >

(if you're living and working in these locations) 50k in NYC is worth 36k in San Diego. 50k in NYC is worth 33k in Seattle. Seattle and San Diego are both relatively expensive places to live.  And for 33k in Seattle, I'd expect to get a strictly entry level developer and I'd feel blessed if they had any experience. 65k in NYC is worth 47k in San Diego. 65k in NYC is worth 43k in Seattle. Are these full time salaries?  I think it's borderline-delusional to expect an experienced dev to work at the first rate, and moreso for an 'expert' dev to work at the second rate, as somebody who has lived and worked in both San Diego and Seattle, but not NYC. -Jeff (all salary comparisons done via salary.com) Jacob wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

$45-50K is right for a mid-level CF developer in the woods of Eastern Connecticut. I must assume that the cost of living is a little higher in NYC. Jerry Johnson Web Developer Dolan Media Company I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?

50K should be OK in downtown NY as long as the inflation has stopped for over 5 years. :-) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>50K should be OK in downtown NY as long as the inflation has stopped >for over 5 years. :-) > > >> Just to work in manhattan, you don't need to live here. I know, because none of my current team (including me) live here - we all commute from NJ, or another NY boro.  Cost of living is quite reasonable if you do that, and the commute isn't too expensive.

  If you can find a CF Developer in CT, of course.  I used to think I was the only one.  Now after taking over management of the user group, I think I think I'm one of 4.   One of my clients was looking to add someone on staff in Southwestern CT and couldn't find anyone in that range.  Of course, Southwestern CT has a different cost of living than Eastern CT. At 01:57 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

It's a NY thing. To get a CF job in NY most of the time you have to go through a recruiter and that makes it look like there are few CF jobs in the city. That causes most people in NY (who would learn it otherwise) not to learn CF. This causes people like you to suffer. It's a vicious cycle. If you want, I can train some low level people up to middle level rather quickly or can come in for some spot work as needed. Having some low level people with a good mentor on call can make them mid level really quickly. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Hi, maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US. viktors Daniel Brown wrote: > I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. > > Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). > > All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?

Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so. That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually get money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Also, this (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96196,00.html) will give you an idea. Daniel ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Thanks Michael and Daniel! Daniel Kang wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Good point with the Medical Insurance thing.  I have no kids, but my next job will defintely have Insurance as a benfit, or I am not even looking at it.  Paying out-of-pocket sucks for us.  (My wife's in the same boat - we work for small employers who can't afford to stay afloat and pay insurance benefits). Michael Dinowitz wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

   I budget 40% of all my income for taxes.  Basically, 33% to the government plus an additional 7% (I think that is the "employers" portion of Social Security).   Michael, I'm very curious as to what type of deductions you are taking as a W2 employee that eliminates your tax burden, vs what you are taking as a contractor.  Do you just mean as a W2 they take out money each paycheck, whereas w/ a 1099 you have to pay quarterly (on your own)? At 02:15 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I was curious about that as well. Right now I am doing 1099 and making my quartly payments. I figure about 35% of my income towards taxes. When I look at my paychecks I feel like a rich man, too bad once I pay taxes(on my own) and deal with medical and so on, I am not really clearing a ton of money. :( ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Exactly. W2 has the taxes on income taken out by the employer while a 1099 expects you to do it. My last 'contract' was supposed to be a W2 but they 1099ed me instead. As for reducing the burden, I've got children who go to private school, a wife who does not work outside the house (Fusion Authority is not a paying job), a business (House of Fusion) that makes almost no money a year while having expenses (the machines, software, etc.) and various work related equipment. A W2 employee can't take transportation or business meals as an expense but a 1099 person can. A person with a small business (such as me) can take certain business related expenses for hardware, software, books, conferences, etc. It's all a game between the government, a company and a person. Unfortunately I'm losing it. :( ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I took "advantage" of this last year since a 1099 and self-employed and needed a new vehicle. I went out and bought a truck that was of the proper weight class so was able to right off a huge chunk of its purchase price and that helped me out enormously with taxes for 2004. Too bad I am thus far am not finding something for 2005 to help out near to that extent. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

At 02:34 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: >Exactly. W2 has the taxes on income taken out by the employer while a 1099 >expects you to do it. My last 'contract' was supposed to be a W2 but they >1099ed me instead.   It sounds to me as if you are not eliminating your burden, just the way its paid. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: <http://www.dot-com-it.com> My Books: <http://www.instantcoldfusion.com> My Recording Studio: <http://www.fcfstudios.com> Connecticut Macromedia User Group: <http://www.ctmug.com>

$11.93 in Southern California after... Federal Income Tax State Income Tax Sales Tax Property Tax Gas Tax Soc Security Tax Medicare Tax Hi, maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US. viktors Daniel Brown wrote: > I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. > > Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). > > All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? > >

> if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- net Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is anywhere near true. I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that.

> Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is anywhere near true Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 and $50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business they work in. Many people are self-employed. http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm google ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- . > > I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that.

Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are worth alot less than US dollars. As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manager in NY is $25k/yr. http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886 ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- .. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

BAH! I suck But really, check out Carl's Jr. Managers - when I got my first CF job (50K) my dad was berly making more than me at like 65K (that was quite a while ago too) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

And I cant spell to boot... But really, check out Carl's Jr. Managers - when I got my first CF job (50K) my dad was *barely* making more than me at like 65K (that was quite a while ago too) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Ah yeah I see - I am in California and that's median... Cal = 40K ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

Hmmm - how come my email address started showing up in the posts? I'll look forward to the spam from that being harvested :| ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- .. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and 50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may not even consider telecommuting for 50k..... I would think 50k in NY for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would have to expect atleast $70k to consider...... A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week. Adam H ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't live in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY boros which are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living. ecommerce partners, inc.    Daniel Brown ECommerce Partners 59 Franklin Street New York N.Y 10013 T 212-334-3390   danielb@ecommercepartners.net www.ecommercepartners.net www.7Designers.com Directions to our office    I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and 50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may not even consider telecommuting for 50k..... I would think 50k in NY for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would have to expect atleast $70k to consider...... A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week. Adam H ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- near true. > > I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. > >

holy crap - I should watch out for my signature when replying too! ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

well personally, I sure wouldn't consider taking a job in NY for 50K. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Brown wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

My wife is a fast food manager and maybe makes $35,000 in Phoenix. Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is anywhere near true. I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that.

The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena! Daniel ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Thats an easy one CF is simple and not [as] complex...java is, rather has the ability to be much more complex, powerful and robust, not to say Coldfusion is not powerful infact it is, very powerful, but limitations are much more easily hit in CF than in Java, or .NET for those .NET lovers.  But thats my 2 cents :) Adam H > The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than > others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena! > > Daniel

they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do.  This is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent architect, programmer, or even tester. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in, let's say, downtown NY?  Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is for CF developers who are doing only coding??? Daniel ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of a high salary.  That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who write poor code, but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding techniques moreso than CF.  CF makes it easy to write "bad" code.   That's not a bad thing, unless people choose to take the easy route and write "bad" code (whch many do).  There's no reason why a CF developer that's building complex enterprise applications shouldn't be earning as much as a java developer building complex enterprise applications, provided they're both competent.  To be honest, most Java developers are more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java - there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them.  An "expert" CF Developer is really worth more than an "expert" java developer in my opinion because they have complete mastery of their environment as opposed to mastery of part and competence in the rest.   Just an observation I've had (and I've worked with A LOT of Java developers). ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I agree with most that (most of the CF jobs I've gotten in the past were inherited systems), but > but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding > techniques moreso than CF.   I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective). Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in java as it is in CF. > To be honest, most Java developers are > more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java - > there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them.   Well there is Java and then there are APIs - I know Java and the core classes well, and I know quite a few APIs - but you are right that it'd be almost impossible to know all java libraries everywhere, while it'd be quite possible to "know" all of CF (aside from all the stuff createObject / third party libraries give you) Plus a good number of java people I have met are quite pompous (mostly J2EE developers actually), and I would rather pay an un-pompous person more than I would pay a jerk. -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

Rob wrote: I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective). Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in java as it is in CF. Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications would be designed and developed less than perfectly.  Like I said, that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop things the wrong way.  Java is an Object Oriented language, and most Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers.  The code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great but at least the code IS encapsulated as such.  With CF Developers it's more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic, as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation. ~Simon >   > Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com

> Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code > and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF > Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you > picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd > bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications > would be designed and developed less than perfectly. Yeah, I'd bet you are right there - I kind of glossed over the more so it seems -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

For a "simple site" JAVA and a full blown tiered architecture are total overkill. I bet everything I've got that the CF developers would develop the simple site in a lot less time ;-) Rob wrote: I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective). Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in java as it is in CF. Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications would be designed and developed less than perfectly.  Like I said, that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop things the wrong way.  Java is an Object Oriented language, and most Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers.  The code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great but at least the code IS encapsulated as such.  With CF Developers it's more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic, as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation. ~Simon >   > Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com

yes, a CF Developer would build the site quicker, but there's no reason not to build a simple site in Java if Java is what your company uses.   As for "full blown tiered architecture" I disagreee with you (I think - it depends on what you mean, really).  A simple site that needs two objects - a brochure and a user, and has a couple views of pages showing brochure information should most likely be represented this way (to me - and remember, I am a bit of a purist when it comes to architecture): In Java: two Beans (not EJBs in something simple like this) JSP Custom tags that talk to the beans and generate UI for pages and for Bean data JSP files that call the JSP tags In CF: two CFCs CFM Custom Tags that talk to the CFCs and generate UIs for pages and for CFC data CFM files that call the CF Tags Do you really see much difference betweeen the two?  Hardly.  This is how I develop everything for the most part.  The last project I was on, I spent a great deal of my time advising a team of Java developers on architecture even though it was them who had to actually build it... because architecture isn't concerned with the inner workings... the way you design and model software should be the same whether it's going to be implemented in CF or Java.  Obviously, Java does have one building construct for which there is no good equivellant in CFML, which is a servlet.  There are sticky implementation issues when something's been modelled for implementation with servlets but is going to be implemented in CFML.  Because the CF Server is a servlet pool of sorts, the easiest way to do that is to create the direcories required and a cfm (which then calls a tag which talks to CFCs) or to do the same but use SES URLs. If it's a servlet filter, CFMX 7's application framework fortunately lets you achieve the results you're looking for.  It all depends on what the servlets are intended to do but like I said, these are stickier to implement.  Fortunately, more often than not in my experience servlets aren't a requirement unless used for filtering requests and responses. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Brown wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

At 01:49 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: >Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code >and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF >Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you >picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd >bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications >would be designed and developed less than perfectly. I also think part of this is that there isn't enough supervision in places that use CF so that bad habits predominate. For instance, rarely have I ever interviewed someone who didn't write code like this: <CFSET a = "#b#"> or <CFSET a = #b#> Obviously, CF is part of the problem for being so forgiving, but there is a lack of a serious engineering mindset in the CF world.  The people who are employing coders who write the above don't care because the applications still work.  They don't care how elegant the codebase is or whether it's a Rube Golberg device as long as it works.  So nobody forces them to change.  They spin their wheels for a couple years until they get layed off or something and they walk into a job interview with 2-3 years of CF listed on their resume and they are still chock full of bad coding habits!! The CF culture brings in people from non-engineering backgrounds, ex Flash animators, designers who are doing double-duty.  People who cracked open the Forta book and learned enough to get by on the job and don't necessarily have the drive to improve their code because their passions really lie elsewhere.  And that's how this culture evolved.  That's why CF coders are treated like 2nd class citizens.

Nicely put; I agree. Most of the coders in my environment could care less if <cfif #bob# EQ "Glenn"> is "bad" code (simplistic example but gives an idea). And yes in our workplace CF has definetely taken the 2nd class rate. It is very frustrating having programers that have not only ever heard of getters and setters but want to have a training session on how to use them....You set then you get...this is also a product of still being stuck in the 90's with CF5, not that the 90's were bad mind you!  Code reivews are sparse if at all. I was just helping a co-worker with a problem the other day and noticed while he was using cfqueryparam in Where clause he was not in the INSERT statement....why? no one ever told him to use them there and the examples he saw were for select statements. So his code will go into production wrong then the next person will come along use his codebase as examples and viola the bad coding proliferates. This  is the case in any programming language, or any learned practice, but it tends to be very wide spread in CF for the exact reasons you mentioned. Adam H ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

ditto from me. I have been doing CF for over 5 years now in my company and every team I have been on has absolutely no code review, code standards, versioning, etc. I've struggled constantly to get them employed....wait until I'm in charge! LOL! I recently had to 'mentor' two noobs in CF. Neither of them knows what an object is let alone a CFC or getters/setters. And yes, they require actual training to scribble down 'SELECT * FROM table' it seems. One thing I have noticed is that since CF is considered a RAD tool, we tend to get projects that are short-lived, small, mediocre complexity, etc. And the business, or customers, want results yesterday. All these combine into fast written ugly code. In my company the big enterprise type projects go to the J2EE world. DK ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

As I've seen a LOT of CF code in my life, I have to agree. CF is too easy. It allows someone to get away with murder and it'll still work. That's why I'm really happy for the push in the CF world towards OO. Not that it should be followed religiously, but just learning it will force people to rethink their code. I'm also happy that I'm stuck on limited hardware. Too often people are on quad gigahertz machines with gigabytes of ram. This allows them to write poor code and not worry about performance or cleanliness. I'm on a 650mhz with 640 meg of ram. House of Fusion HAS to be written tight. I think everyone should be forced to write at least one project on inferior hardware just to force them to think of what they're doing. I think everyone should be FORCED to read a book on coding methodologies and design at least once a year. I think everyone should be FORCED to put their code up for review so others can pick it apart. Make the developer want to do it the best they can. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Isn't one of the drawbacks of OO architecture that it tends to use more resources?  Isn't it true that people are willing to make that sacrifice to make more manageable code? As I've seen a LOT of CF code in my life, I have to agree. CF is too easy. It allows someone to get away with murder and it'll still work. That's why I'm really happy for the push in the CF world towards OO. Not that it should be followed religiously, but just learning it will force people to rethink their code. I'm also happy that I'm stuck on limited hardware. Too often people are on quad gigahertz machines with gigabytes of ram. This allows them to write poor code and not worry about performance or cleanliness. I'm on a 650mhz with 640 meg of ram. House of Fusion HAS to be written tight. I think everyone should be forced to write at least one project on inferior hardware just to force them to think of what they're doing. I think everyone should be FORCED to read a book on coding methodologies and design at least once a year. I think everyone should be FORCED to put their code up for review so others can pick it apart. Make the developer want to do it the best they can. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Maybe, maybe not. Yes there is some minor (very minor) overhead when instantiating an object and passing data (by reference) to it but not much more so than using a custom tag or UDF. If you know what your doing and cache the objects than this overhead is pretty much gone and all your left with is clean, organized code. The main drawback with OO is that people either don't know what they're doing or they are following it strictly to the OO letter rather than adapting the best of it to CF. > Isn't one of the drawbacks of OO architecture that it tends to use more > resources?  Isn't it true that people are willing to make that sacrifice > to > make more manageable code?

  I have not heard any comparisons between OO and Procedural programming in terms of performance.  But, that said I would not expect the amount of resources needed to differ greatly between well-organized procedural code vs well organized OO code.  However, most of the CF code out there is just a whole lot of mish-mash.   Considering that any given application spends most of its life in "maintenance" mode, I think anything you can do to ease maintenance would be of high importance. At 05:05 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

  I think I mentioned this before on this list, but...   Ben Forta mentioned (at Powered by Detroit) that one of the "biggest recruiting firms in the US" doesn't put CF in the job description when looking for CF Developers.  They look for Java Developers.  ( This is all paraphrased, of course ).   But, these are enterprise level companies who use Java in the backend and CF for front end stuff / middleware.  The reasoning for this is similar to what Simon said below.  CF Developer's write bad code.   I think the reason for this is that many CF Developers are not programmers by trade.  They do what it takes to get the job done, without thought to maintenance, re-use, structure, etc..  I'm working on one app now, which has (for example)...  templates with ~2,500 lines of code, only one line of documentation (which says "begin" and offers no more explanation) and very long lines (for example, an if statement with 5 else conditions written out on a single line ).  Formatted w/ an eye for readability I'm sure the template would double in size. At 04:10 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- That and 50+ queries in one CF page, some of which are repeated. Worst code I have ever seen bar none. DK At 04:10 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Only 50+ ? Man, you should see some of the nightmares I have to support here. One that I have been battling to get to work all week literally had at least 200k(through loops). Have it down to 59k and one stored proc, which is still ugly but was a choice of either get it working in CFMX or go back to CF5. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

CF is a web application language.  It's not a language you can write multithreaded GUI applications in the way you can in Java or .NET.  It's not a general purpose desktop application language. So if you know Java or .NET, presumably you can do more varied kinds of work like more robust back end processing applications or in-house GUI tools or shrinkwrapped software. CF developers write for the web and that's that.  I have written backend services in CF and it's really not its strong point, believe me. At 12:50 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: >Thats an easy one CF is simple and not [as] complex...java is, rather >has the ability to be much more complex, powerful and robust, not to >say Coldfusion is not powerful infact it is, very powerful, but >limitations are much more easily hit in CF than in Java, or .NET for >those .NET lovers.  But thats my 2 cents :)

> So if you know Java or .NET, presumably you can do more varied kinds of > work like more robust back end processing applications or in-house GUI > tools or shrinkwrapped software. > I don't know that I agree with this...I know plenty of Java developers that haven't done a spot of GUI programing...doesn't mean they couldn't learn it to get the job done but you could easily have a mid level java architect that hasn't ever made a GUI. Adam H ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

At 05:32 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote: >I don't know that I agree with this...I know plenty of Java developers >that haven't done a spot of GUI programing...doesn't mean they >couldn't learn it to get the job done but you could easily have a mid >level java architect that hasn't ever made a GUI. Yes, but they could one day do that if the job required it, and all they'd need to know are more APIs.  They wouldn't have to learn a whole new language like CF programmers would. So that automatically makes them more versatile.

$50K would be about right for the southwest here, but for NY?  Seems like the cost of living would kill much of that. I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?

I dunno, that's tough.  I work as a mid-level/senior level (4yrs exp.) CF developer here on long island and my salary is closer to 65/70 and I'm getting a ton of benefits and vacation time.   The consulting firm we bring in to hepl from time to time had an opening a few months back and they tried a lower base (55ish I believe) and they had trouble filling the spot.  They eventually killed the position and hired a recent grad to train themselves at a lower starting base.  So, that might be an idea for you if you have enough senior level guys to oversee their work. KP I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?

If you offered my 50k to telecommute I would give my notice today. (1 office visit a week would be fine by me) KP I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?

My cousin is a manager for Checkers here in NY and he pulls about 75k per year > Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is > anywhere near true Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 and $50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business they work in. Many people are self-employed. http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm google ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- .. > > I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for > $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so > much more than that. > >

OK. In response to the need for mid level CF developers in NY, I'm going to post my availability as a ColdFusion Guru and Mentor to the CF-Jobs list. All I'll do is be on call to answer clients questions in a way that makes them (the developers) think on a 'higher level' as well as come in for spot training and reviews. Take a low level and make them a mid or better as well as make everyone 'feel' better to have a guru on call.

You could outsource the spot? Probally cost you 1k per month for a guy in India. Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't live in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY boros which are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living. ecommerce partners, inc.    Daniel Brown ECommerce Partners 59 Franklin Street New York N.Y 10013 T 212-334-3390   danielb@ecommercepartners.net www.ecommercepartners.net www.7Designers.com Directions to our office    I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and 50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may not even consider telecommuting for 50k..... I would think 50k in NY for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would have to expect atleast $70k to consider...... A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week. Adam H ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- near true. > > I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. > >

Maybe they could put a ship out off the coast near NYC http://www.sea-code.com/    ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

That's crazy, the cost of running one of those vessels just can't be cost effective. Fred ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I did not run the numbers, but my friend who read some of the articles on them said it came out to a $23 million per year savings to use their approach. I bet that could easily pay for the maint on a ship, but could not even imagine what the initial cost of the ship would be. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

At 09:59 AM 5/2/2005, you wrote: >I did not run the numbers, but my friend who read some of the articles on >them said it came out to a $23 million per year savings to use their >approach. I bet that could easily pay for the maint on a ship, but could not >even imagine what the initial cost of the ship would be. If everyone just ran businesses with community responsibility in mind, we'd all be better off. I know if I were to ever start a business that employed others it would be an "insourcing" project centered in some rural area where land is cheap.  Companies really should try to employ their country's own people before seeking the cheapest international alternative.  If it means spending a little extra, so be it.  You get good PR and you help the overall economy in the process.  There is more to life than profit by any means necessary. It's silly that in this technological day and age that techies should have to concentrate themselves into a few uber expensive hubs like Silicon Valley. Companies should grow some balls and learn how to stick a shovel into some sh*t-hole in the middle of nowhere and build a new community from the ground up.  Maybe everyone needs the nightlife of a big city or something.  I don't.  I know a lot of people would probably love to relocate to somewhere cheap like that if they thought the company was going to last long enough to set down roots there and keep them employed.  If I could build a house for peanuts out in the boonies I could afford to make half my salary and still live comfortably.  As it is, I'm probably making more than any of you on this list and I don't think I can save enough (as a single dad) for a downpayment on a condo here in Culver City.

OH and this is where I will jump in.  I am currently contracted with IBM Global Services as their WebSphere Application Developer in Atlanta, GA. What I've done is expanded my talents to incorporate ColdFusion (Sr), Java/J2EE (Mid), .NET (Mid) and PHP (Mid).  As you can see I have expanded myself in order to be able to apply to any type of development job.   Now with that said, IBM is going through some renegotiations with their current clients (2).  In order for IBM to come in competitively in the bidding war each client is being presented new proposals with the development going overseas to India.  The clincher is that if both companies resign then I have nothing to worry about as I will be split between the contracts.  If only one signs, then the work goes offshore.  There is a lot more that is involved in this but just so you know you would get four people for what it cost to have me as a contractor. All jobs are susceptible to having this happen.  That is why I have expanded outside CFML. So what is my point.  50k would not be receptive to someone like myself in the NY area.  But, you might want to use sites like Guru.com (which I frequently use to look for extra work) to outsource your projects to mid-level developers and have them bid on the projects. Just my 2 cents. Jason L. West, Sr jwest@wezbiz.com   Get Firefox!!! You could outsource the spot? Probally cost you 1k per month for a guy in India. Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't live in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY boros which are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living. ecommerce partners, inc.    Daniel Brown ECommerce Partners 59 Franklin Street New York N.Y 10013 T 212-334-3390   danielb@ecommercepartners.net www.ecommercepartners.net www.7Designers.com Directions to our office    I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and 50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may not even consider telecommuting for 50k..... I would think 50k in NY for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would have to expect atleast $70k to consider...... A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week. Adam H ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- near true. > > I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. > >

In a message dated 4/29/2005 1:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, danielb@ecommercepartners.net writes: All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? In downtown New York City?  $50k is way too low.

Perhaps what you think is mid-level, others think is jr level? What does a Jr level CF person get in that area? I once applied for a Sr level full time job here with this company I am at now as a contractor. They never posted the pay range, I just assumed it wouldbe around what everyone else pays. When I got the job offer it was unbelieveably low, below 50k but I do not recall the exact number. I remember at the time thinking I could make more money being a manager at the WalMart near my home once factoring in less driving and so on. After seeing some of the projects the person they hired put out, they really should not have been looking for a Sr level person and most certainly did not hire someone who is at that level. On 4/29/05, TinaRock@aol.com <TinaRock@aol.com> wrote: > > In a message dated 4/29/2005 1:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > danielb@ecommercepartners.net writes: > All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k > salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? >

> but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding techniques > moreso than CF. The Java code at one of my first real jobs was an abomination, utter drivel, so I'd have to disagree with you. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include <stdjoke.h>

I'm sure it was.. I've seen lots of bad Java code.... but it's not as common to have fundamental design flaws in Java as it is in CF. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Damien McKenna wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I like that the question was "build a simple site" but this simple site needed objects, ties and business logic.  Sounds a bit advance for a simple five page brochure site. Just an obsveration that one developers "simple" is anothers "too complex for the job." Not saying anything about CF vs Java here, just commenting on the question. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning ...-----Original Message----- ... ...Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM ...To: CF-Jobs-Talk ...Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? ... ...Rob wrote: ... ...I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad ...java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective). ...Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong ...place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in ...java as it is in CF. ... ... ...Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code ...and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF ...Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you ...picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd ...bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications ...would be designed and developed less than perfectly.  Like I said, ...that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the ...reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop ...things the wrong way.  Java is an Object Oriented language, and most ...Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers.  The ...code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great ...but at least the code IS encapsulated as such.  With CF Developers it's ...more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic, ...as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it ...allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation. ... ...~Simon ... ...> ...> ...Simon Horwith ...CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com ...Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal ...Member of Team Macromedia ...Macromedia Certified Master Instructor ...Blog - http://www.horwith.com ... ... ... ... ...

well - that's the difference between a CF developer and a Java developer.  ALL SITES (let's assume I mean "all dynamic sites" - ignore static things) require Objects according to the average Java developer.   Even the "simple" ones.  The average CF Developer probably wouldn't say the same.  Yes - a 5 page brochure site should have at least one object representing the brochure - probably another representing the person looking at it.  That's true whether you use CF or Java.  You know, if you dump the session scope in most apps I write, there's nothing but objects in it.  That's because I develop CF Apps the same way any other J2EE developer would.  Is it overkill?  That depends on who you ask... but I tell you what, to get back to the original topic, I'd take a CF Developer who's asking for a high salary much more seriously if they showed me a code sample and it was built that way.  As a matter of fact, at my last job I made more money than any of the java developers! ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Ian Skinner wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I have to disagree with this.  There is a difference between a hobbyist and a developer.  The hobbyist might not think that the application would need some sort of structure to it, but a developer who has created a couple of shopping carts or some other sort of dynamic application would probably agree with placing a structure in the app and or methodology.   My belief with Fusebox, MACH-II, and a couple of the other communities out there that most of the CMFL community are developers and not just hobbyist. I mean come on, out side of BlueDragon being the only free CFML server, it would kind of be expensive to be a hobbyist with CFML. So I would say that you comment is wrong about "average CFML developer". Jason L. West, Sr jwest@wezbiz.com   Get Firefox!!! well - that's the difference between a CF developer and a Java developer.  ALL SITES (let's assume I mean "all dynamic sites" - ignore static things) require Objects according to the average Java developer.   Even the "simple" ones.  The average CF Developer probably wouldn't say the same.  Yes - a 5 page brochure site should have at least one object representing the brochure - probably another representing the person looking at it.  That's true whether you use CF or Java.  You know, if you dump the session scope in most apps I write, there's nothing but objects in it.  That's because I develop CF Apps the same way any other J2EE developer would.  Is it overkill?  That depends on who you ask... but I tell you what, to get back to the original topic, I'd take a CF Developer who's asking for a high salary much more seriously if they showed me a code sample and it was built that way.  As a matter of fact, at my last job I made more money than any of the java developers! ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Ian Skinner wrote: >I like that the question was "build a simple site" but this simple site needed objects, ties and business logic.  Sounds a bit advance for a simple five page brochure site. > >Just an obsveration that one developers "simple" is anothers "too complex for the job." ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Code ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

After careful thought, there are other projects out there that are free CFML servers.  If anyone has/know of one please let me know. Thanks Jason L. West, Sr jwest@wezbiz.com   Get Firefox!!! I have to disagree with this.  There is a difference between a hobbyist and a developer.  The hobbyist might not think that the application would need some sort of structure to it, but a developer who has created a couple of shopping carts or some other sort of dynamic application would probably agree with placing a structure in the app and or methodology.   My belief with Fusebox, MACH-II, and a couple of the other communities out there that most of the CMFL community are developers and not just hobbyist. I mean come on, out side of BlueDragon being the only free CFML server, it would kind of be expensive to be a hobbyist with CFML. So I would say that you comment is wrong about "average CFML developer". Jason L. West, Sr jwest@wezbiz.com   Get Firefox!!! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 5/4/2005

Or you could use a hosting service provider, who has fulltime staff for keeping all hardware and software servers up to date, security holes plugged, ports watched, provides 24/7 support, and offers flexible, relatively inexpensive plans that can scale with the developer's needs like dedicated servers (if you need it/them), or load testing/analysis. This can free up your time as a programmer to concentrate on writing the application, eliminating time and expense for infrastructure management. If intellectual property is a concern, with CFMX7, you can deploy a sourceless distribution of your code by using the "cfcompile" utility with the "-deploy" option to create ColdFusion pages (CFM, CFC, and CFR files) that contain Java bytecode. You can then deploy the bytecode versions of the ColdFusion pages instead of the original CFML source code. More info here: http://livedocs.macromedia.com/coldfusion/7/htmldocs/wwhelp/wwhimpl/common/h tml/wwhelp.htm?context=ColdFusion_Documentation&file=00001762.htm Louis Mezo LogicSynthesis Tel: 240.498.8951 Louis.Mezo@logisynth.com http://www.logicsynthesis.com After careful thought, there are other projects out there that are free CFML servers.  If anyone has/know of one please let me know. Thanks Jason L. West, Sr jwest@wezbiz.com   Get Firefox!!! I have to disagree with this.  There is a difference between a hobbyist and a developer.  The hobbyist might not think that the application would need some sort of structure to it, but a developer who has created a couple of shopping carts or some other sort of dynamic application would probably agree with placing a structure in the app and or methodology. My belief with Fusebox, MACH-II, and a couple of the other communities out there that most of the CMFL community are developers and not just hobbyist. I mean come on, out side of BlueDragon being the only free CFML server, it would kind of be expensive to be a hobbyist with CFML. So I would say that you comment is wrong about "average CFML developer". Jason L. West, Sr jwest@wezbiz.com   Get Firefox!!! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 5/4/2005

I'm loving this thread and still curious. I have been developing CF since 97 in Chicagoland and I am 100% self taught (BA in Liberal Ed with a focus on Child Development and 1 HTML course) I did read programming books in hopes to get into development (Basic,Qbasic,C++,Visual Basic, VBA, Java) and develop a few Access based applications for a nonprofit and ended up as a CF developer. I know of: -Frameworks -Java (developed a CFC to integrate with a popular CRM) -OOP But I have only had two jobs (one was a one month contract) where I would consider a managed enough environment to promote good coding practices. . . . I'm interested in doing more than being stuck at midlevel development because I can at best state that I'm a CF expert (and although I've read and know about and breifly touched well managed code, I'm not so sure I can even say that) and a Java novice (developed compiled tested but still no way near the same point as CF). Thankfully after 6 months at my current new (mid near entry level CF) position, I developed a fully scoped application. (Where upon 'go stage' we found that we really need to implement a 3 box environment). But in most cases I only have enough time to debug problems caused by bad code (this is an environment where I was asked to justify 2 hrs of work migrating an access based CF site to our servers). Do I just continue to work at this bit by bit (we are starting to look at building web services for our clients) until we stumble across developing Java. Do I go to the manager and say we need to start developing well managed sites (which I do roughly twice a month. Next week I get to talk about cfqueryparam . . . yay). Any thoughts to the best way to slip managed code and best practices under the covers of an already poorly written site when you don't have the luxury of altering the whole thing. And what could I work on in order to get to roughly mid level java developer point while being a CF developer? And can you get a job writing ABAP without having any experience at all, and if you can't where did all these ABAP developers come from. ;) -Joshua O'Connor-Rose -All is Good __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com