Associate Partners?

Is anyone here actually an Associate Partner (as opposed to an Alliance Partner)?  If so I'd be interested in hearing how your business has benefited from participating in the program.

I am an associate Partner! John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com Is anyone here actually an Associate Partner (as opposed to an Alliance Partner)?  If so I'd be interested in hearing how your business has benefited from participating in the program.

Hi Kirk, all in all it didn't help that much other than the fact you get some software for free and you can test it. Uwe SD Solutions Fon: 08122-903791 Fax: 08122-903792 Mail: info@sdsolutions.de Web: www.sdsolutions.de Bitte bewerten Sie uns als ColdFusion-Hoster: http://www.forta.com/cf/isp/isp.cfm?isp_id=697 JC> -----Original Message----- JC JC> Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 10:47 AM JC> To: CF-partners JC> Subject: Associate Partners? JC> Is anyone here actually an Associate Partner (as opposed to an Alliance JC> Partner)?  If so I'd be interested in hearing how your business has JC> benefited JC> from participating in the program. JC>

In particular, you probably should give up on any notion of getting a lead. We've been a partner since 1998, have have never had a single lead attributable to working with Allaire and now Macromedia. Greg At 08:13 PM 1/3/2003 +0100, cf-talk@sdsolutions.de wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

ditto....it's just the software for development and being able to say you're an MM partner (credibility with clients). Personally...running a CFUG has brought in more work than the zero sales from the partner side of things Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Alliance ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Ditto | -----Original Message----- | | Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:06 PM | To: CF-partners | Subject: Re: Associate Partners? | | | ditto....it's just the software for development and being | able to say you're an MM partner (credibility with clients). | | Personally...running a CFUG has brought in more work than the | zero sales from the partner side of things | | Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. | VP & Director of E-Commerce Development | Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. | t. 250.920.8830 | e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com | | --------------------------------------------------------- | Macromedia Associate Partner | www.macromedia.com | --------------------------------------------------------- | Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group | Founder & Director | www.cfug-vancouverisland.com | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Greg Bullough" <greg@bullough.org> | To: "CF-partners" <cf-partners@houseoffusion.com> | Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:43 AM | Subject: Re: Associate Partners? | | | > In particular, you probably should give up on | > any notion of getting a lead. We've been a | > partner since 1998, have have never had | > a single lead attributable to working with | > Allaire and now Macromedia. | > | > Greg | > | > At 08:13 PM 1/3/2003 +0100, cf-talk@sdsolutions.de wrote: | > >Hi Kirk, all in all it | > >didn't help that much | > >other than the fact | > >you get some software | > >for free and you can test it. | > >Uwe | > > | > >SD Solutions | > >Fon: 08122-903791 | > >Fax: 08122-903792 | > >Mail: info@sdsolutions.de | > >Web: www.sdsolutions.de | > >Bitte bewerten Sie uns als ColdFusion-Hoster: | > >http://www.forta.com/cf/isp/isp.cfm?isp_id=697 | > > | > > | > >JC> -----Original Message----- | > >JC | > >JC> Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 10:47 AM | > >JC> To: CF-partners | > >JC> Subject: Associate Partners? | > > | > >JC> Is anyone here actually an Associate Partner (as opposed to an | Alliance | > >JC> Partner)?  If so I'd be interested in hearing how your | business | > >JC> has benefited from participating in the program. | > > | > > | > > | > >JC> | > > | > |

What additional benefits would people like to see from the Associate Partner program in addition to those related to software?  So far, I have seen people mention business leads and the DRK.  Are those the big ones? Christian

Hi Christian, thanks for the reply. As I said I personally would much appreciate, if MM would do some campaigns together with partners (all levels !) especially in terms of ColdFusion. I can imagine myself, doing a (e.g.) hosting initiative together with all the other MM-CF-hosting-partners. Is this doable ? Uwe CC> What additional benefits would people like to see from the Associate Partner program in addition to those related to software?  So far, I have seen people mention business leads and the DRK.  Are CC> those the big ones? CC> Christian CC>

I'd have to say leads would be #1 for us...followed by extra software...then DRKs Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com > What additional benefits would people like to see from the Associate Partner program in addition to those related to software?  So far, I have seen people mention business leads and the DRK.  Are those the big ones? > > Christian

Yeah, but surely the software is NFCU / NFR and the DRK's are pretty lame, let's face it. > I'd have to say leads would be #1 for us...followed by extra software...then ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I don't want to divert attention away from the real issue here (the   Associate Partner Program), but I am always open to suggestions on what   can make the DRK more valuable for ColdFusion developers.  The first   two DRKs have probably been more valuable for Flash developers, but I   would certainly like to see more of a balance in the future.  Everyone   is invited to send me suggestions any time.  In fact, we are in the   process of planning content for volume 3 now. Christian On Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 04:30 PM, Neil Robertson-Ravo wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

  If DotComIt were to consider becoming a partner, it would be leads first, then software.   I read through the thread, but cannot for the life of me figure out what DRK means.  Presumably we are not talking about the German Red Cross. <http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=DRK>; At 09:30 PM 1/5/2003 +0000, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

In this economy with over 400 alliance partners where do you expect to get leads from?? John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com I'd have to say leads would be #1 for us...followed by extra software...then DRKs Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com > What additional benefits would people like to see from the Associate Partner program in addition to those related to software?  So far, I have seen people mention business leads and the DRK.  Are those the big ones? > > Christian >

I think that the key is having appropriate benefits for companies of differing sizes and capabilities.  I am purely speculating about this, but a smaller number of large companies likely makes up the bulk of the $$ Macromedia generates due to the associates program.  However, the bulk of the participants in the program are likely smaller shops.  The real challenge in my mind is to treat the different sized companies as different things, not just the same thing in different sizes. Free Software --- For a smaller company - say 1-5 people - free software is a huge thing.  For larger companies, they like free software too, but can probably better afford it anyways so it's not as high on the list of desires.  Yes, I know you said other than the software issues - so I will move on... Business Leads --- Though smaller companies are the ones who are probably more desperate for leads, unfortunately, many cannot handle them.  If Casio comes to MM and is looking for a solution, there are probably a very small number of associates who MM would feel comfortable sending them to. This brings up a question in my mind.  Christian, how many leads does MM actually get?  And when are they generated, at the point of sale, or do people just call up asking for a solutions provider?  You may not know - or be able to provide this information, but I am curious if MM even gets many leads to pass along. So, assuming for a second that MM isn't sitting on a giant pile of leads (which I don't think it is), how else can MM help associates get leads, and generate new business?  There's the solution providers guide (or whatever it's called), though I am not sure how effective it is, it should probably not go away. Case Studies (Business Leads) --- MM has a set of case studies for high profile clients.  I wouldn't mind seeing those opened up to more associates.  I know MM likes to show very large implementations, but associates could sure get some exposure by talking about smaller unique problems that they have overcome. Advertising (Business Leads) --- MM advertises it's product in tech rags, and advertises it's usergroups in CFDJ, etc...  I am not sure I have seen the associates program advertised. I mean, where are our potential clients looking for us?  PHB opens mag, sees associates program, pulls up URL, calls and associate.  Maybe that doesn't work, maybe it's been tried, many not... Also, perhaps "find and hire a local associate" could be a link under the support section someplace? Access to MM --- IMHO, every single associate should be invited to roadshows, invited into betas, etc...  The marginal cost to do this is very very low to MM, and the potential payoff is very high. Beyond that, there needs to be some way for associates to have a slightly higher level of access than regular customers.  I doubt the partner program managers could keep up with calling everyone, though I don't know how many associates there are right now...  This (or a similar) mailing list is a good idea as one of those ways... I guess those are my thought for now... -Cameron ----------------- Cameron Childress Sumo Consulting Inc. --- cell:  678-637-5072 aim:   cameroncf email: cameronc@mindspring.com > What additional benefits would people like to see from the > Associate Partner program in addition to those related to > software?  So far, I have seen people mention business leads and > the DRK.  Are those the big ones? > > Christian

At my previous company it was the same thing, then we started to put on solutions seminars and get Macromedia Executives to speak at them, we sold the products and ran CFUG's We attended all the partner events and roadshows. Then it started to poor in. You sometimes have to do what I did. I got a deal that moved 6 CF servers for Macromedia, I called the local territory manager and gave him the heads up, we jointly closed it. Once that happened deals started to come in. I went back to Boston and met the entire inside sales team showed them a presentation of what we could offer. I showed them how a development partners expertise could help them achieve more technical wins. Us partners are the key to implementations and technical wins, we are the ones that build the innovative solutions. You will not get leads at the Associate Level, it is just a communications channel. You have to move up to higher levels of the Alliance. Now I am feeling what you guys are feeling I am an associate partner. I can say that there is a benefit to being a Premier Partner. At ISITE out gross revenue was appx 3.0 million for 2002. 85 percent of that revenue was connected or related to the Macromedia Partnership. If anyone would like to talk more about the partnership program e-mail me. I am not trying to brag or hurt anyone. I want to see all partners do well. And if a Partnership Program is ran effectively from both ends it will work. Macromedia has one of the better partner programs out there. I mean how often does Microsoft kick you deals? John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com In particular, you probably should give up on any notion of getting a lead. We've been a partner since 1998, have have never had a single lead attributable to working with Allaire and now Macromedia. Greg At 08:13 PM 1/3/2003 +0100, cf-talk@sdsolutions.de wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

We are associate partners and we have never received any leads either. We publish the association as a credibility issue and enjoy the benefits of reduced software prices. Not sure if we would renew next year.       Best regards,       Sally Georgeson       Portline, Inc.       Phone: 503-924-5999       Fax: 503-924-5998       Email: sally@portline.com      Is anyone here actually an Associate Partner (as opposed to an Alliance Partner)?  If so I'd be interested in hearing how your business has benefited from participating in the program.

You will not get leads at the Associate level, When I was with ISITE we where Premier Partners and we had a lot of benefits from it. I will be an alliance, or Premier Alliance partner in Asia, but here in the US I just want to be alliance for the credibility and the communication channel. John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com We are associate partners and we have never received any leads either. We publish the association as a credibility issue and enjoy the benefits of reduced software prices. Not sure if we would renew next year.       Best regards,       Sally Georgeson       Portline, Inc.       Phone: 503-924-5999       Fax: 503-924-5998       Email: sally@portline.com      Is anyone here actually an Associate Partner (as opposed to an Alliance Partner)?  If so I'd be interested in hearing how your business has benefited from participating in the program.

Interesting.  This is kind of what I expected.  I was previously an Associate Partner through the Allaire program.  Back then Associate Partners actually got Studio in addition to the server products.  I actually did get a few leads through Allaire - one in particular has become one of our main clients. I'm having a hard time seeing the value proposition of the current Associate Partner program.  Since Studio is no longer included at this level Associate Partners are basically just getting CF Server.  I could easily buy a Pro license for the cost of membership in the program.  Alternately, the Enterprise development versions are available to all. I raised this issue because one of our clients is having major ongoing problems dealing with Macromedia on their CF Enterpise subscriptions (MM alternately has no record of their subscriptions or an incomplete record depending on which day you speak to them).  At any rate, I've found myself wondering whether or not participating in the Partner program would actually put me in a better position to provide service to my client.  At this point I'm inclined to think not.

Hi Kirk, I really find it interesting, that you brought this topic to the light. I was asking myself the same things over and over. What is the benefit ? How can MM improve the situation for the associate partners and other partners as well ? I personally would much appreciate, if MM would do some campaigns together with partners especially in terms of ColdFusion. I can imagine myself, doing a (e.g.) hosting initiative together with all the other MM-CF-hosting-partners. It would help the partners to get better into business and MM to be more accepted as a real alternative against others as PHP, ASP etc. Is someone from MM reading this whole thread ? Would be great ! What do you guys think ? Uwe Friday, January 3, 2003, 9:16:17 PM, you wrote: KB> Interesting.  This is kind of what I expected.  I was previously an Associate KB> Partner through the Allaire program.  Back then Associate Partners actually KB> got Studio in addition to the server products.  I actually did get a few leads KB> through Allaire - one in particular has become one of our main clients. KB> I'm having a hard time seeing the value proposition of the current Associate KB> Partner program.  Since Studio is no longer included at this level Associate KB> Partners are basically just getting CF Server.  I could easily buy a Pro license KB> for the cost of membership in the program.  Alternately, the Enterprise KB> development versions are available to all. KB> I raised this issue because one of our clients is having major ongoing KB> problems dealing with Macromedia on their CF Enterpise subscriptions (MM KB> alternately has no record of their subscriptions or an incomplete record KB> depending on which day you speak to them).  At any rate, I've found myself KB> wondering whether or not participating in the Partner program would actually KB> put me in a better position to provide service to my client.  At this point I'm KB> inclined to think not. KB>

To throw in my 2 cents: We have been partners since the program began at Allaire.  Even before that we had a strong relationship with an inside sales person, Nancy Heidenreich, who gave us several leads that paid off.  Through Nancy, we also had input into the original partner program and worked with Allaire to fine tune some discount programs as well.  After the IPO, once they started developing their sales network, the focus changed completely.  Leads went to partners that had sales arms and the regional partner managers - ours was Scott Willie - wouldn't give us the time of day. It seems to be a moot point, as we see very little demand for CF from our market.  It is remarkable that the folks like us really generate the demand for the product by selling the CF concept to our clients.  I respect BF, but it is us who are the true evangelists. Allaire lost sight of this and MM has never understood it.  This is a crux point as this failure might very well lead to the downfall of the language. At the end of the day, I really like CF, but I know that we could get the bulk of the cash that our clients are spending for CF if we were to steer them to php. I don't really expect much from the current program, so I won't be easily disappointed. It does mystify me though that they don't give us the "developer resource kit."  It seems to me that showing us better ways to use the product is a no-brainer. Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company At 12:16 PM 1/3/2003 -0800, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I have to agree somewhat... While I think that PHP isn't the 'response' to CF that will ultimately prevail -- it will certainly give CF a run for it's money.  I think CF (if MM stays focused) will be an integral part of the world in the future. That being said, I have to agree that the partner programs are but shadows of their former selves.  Nancy was (and probably is) one of the nicest people ever to work at Allaire.  And worked carefully with her contacts. However, the current partner programs are little more than the ability to say that you work with CF products. Just my .02. | -----Original Message----- | | Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 2:15 PM | To: CF-partners | Subject: Re: Associate Partners? | | | To throw in my 2 cents: | | We have been partners since the program began at Allaire.   | Even before that | we had a strong relationship with an inside sales person, Nancy | Heidenreich, who gave us several leads that paid off.   | Through Nancy, we | also had input into the original partner program and worked | with Allaire to | fine tune some discount programs as well.  After the IPO, | once they started | developing their sales network, the focus changed completely. |  Leads went | to partners that had sales arms and the regional partner | managers - ours | was Scott Willie - wouldn't give us the time of day. | | It seems to be a moot point, as we see very little demand for | CF from our | market.  It is remarkable that the folks like us really | generate the demand | for the product by selling the CF concept to our clients.  I | respect BF, | but it is us who are the true evangelists. Allaire lost sight | of this and | MM has never understood it.  This is a crux point as this | failure might | very well lead to the downfall of the language. | | At the end of the day, I really like CF, but I know that we | could get the | bulk of the cash that our clients are spending for CF if we | were to steer | them to php. | | I don't really expect much from the current program, so I | won't be easily | disappointed. It does mystify me though that they don't give us the | "developer resource kit."  It seems to me that showing us | better ways to | use the product is a no-brainer. | | Cary Gordon | The Cherry Hill Company | | At 12:16 PM 1/3/2003 -0800, you wrote: | >Interesting.  This is kind of what I expected.  I was previously an | >Associate Partner through the Allaire program.  Back then Associate | >Partners actually got Studio in addition to the server products.  I | >actually did get a few leads through Allaire - one in particular has | >become one of our main clients. | > | >I'm having a hard time seeing the value proposition of the current | >Associate Partner program.  Since Studio is no longer | included at this | >level Associate Partners are basically just getting CF | Server.  I could | >easily buy a Pro license for the cost of membership in the program.   | >Alternately, the Enterprise development versions are | available to all. | > | >I raised this issue because one of our clients is having | major ongoing | >problems dealing with Macromedia on their CF Enterpise subscriptions | >(MM alternately has no record of their subscriptions or an | incomplete | >record depending on which day you speak to them).  At any rate, I've | >found myself wondering whether or not participating in the Partner | >program would actually put me in a better position to | provide service | >to my client.  At this point I'm inclined to think not. | | |

Try this, call one of these companies, and ask them what the Macromedia Alliance Partner Program has done for them. ISITE Design, Fig Leaf, Mindseye, RemoteSite, Web World Studio's Roundpeg, Molecular Brookwood All but one of these came from the Allaire alliance. If you talk to me offline I can give you some in site on how to make more end roads at Macromedia. I admit when the merger happened it was painful. Allaire lived on its partners, Macromedia never used partners. At one time we almost left the alliance, we then got a peek at the new program and it interested us. We stuck with it and have reaped a lot or benefits from it. John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com To throw in my 2 cents: We have been partners since the program began at Allaire.  Even before that we had a strong relationship with an inside sales person, Nancy Heidenreich, who gave us several leads that paid off.  Through Nancy, we also had input into the original partner program and worked with Allaire to fine tune some discount programs as well.  After the IPO, once they started developing their sales network, the focus changed completely.  Leads went to partners that had sales arms and the regional partner managers - ours was Scott Willie - wouldn't give us the time of day. It seems to be a moot point, as we see very little demand for CF from our market.  It is remarkable that the folks like us really generate the demand for the product by selling the CF concept to our clients.  I respect BF, but it is us who are the true evangelists. Allaire lost sight of this and MM has never understood it.  This is a crux point as this failure might very well lead to the downfall of the language. At the end of the day, I really like CF, but I know that we could get the bulk of the cash that our clients are spending for CF if we were to steer them to php. I don't really expect much from the current program, so I won't be easily disappointed. It does mystify me though that they don't give us the "developer resource kit."  It seems to me that showing us better ways to use the product is a no-brainer. Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company At 12:16 PM 1/3/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Interesting.  This is kind of what I expected.  I was previously an Associate >Partner through the Allaire program.  Back then Associate Partners actually >got Studio in addition to the server products.  I actually did get a few >leads >through Allaire - one in particular has become one of our main clients. > >I'm having a hard time seeing the value proposition of the current Associate >Partner program.  Since Studio is no longer included at this level Associate ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- actually >put me in a better position to provide service to my client.  At this >point I'm >inclined to think not.

Thats not a fair assessment as most of these companies made inroads due to the .COM boom..... The MM alliance is good in that is gives you insight etc, but it sure as hell doesn't give you any work like inroads.. Just look at the "certified ColdFusion developer"... you would be surprised how many of these I have seen which know jack-shit about CFML and App development. just my $0.10 (my $0.02 are free...) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- left > the alliance, we then got a peek at the new program and it interested us. We ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- that > we had a strong relationship with an inside sales person, Nancy > Heidenreich, who gave us several leads that paid off.  Through Nancy, we > also had input into the original partner program and worked with Allaire to > fine tune some discount programs as well.  After the IPO, once they started > developing their sales network, the focus changed completely.  Leads went > to partners that had sales arms and the regional partner managers - ours > was Scott Willie - wouldn't give us the time of day. > > It seems to be a moot point, as we see very little demand for CF from our > market.  It is remarkable that the folks like us really generate the demand ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- actually ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- myself ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

At 04:56 PM 1/4/2003 +0000, Neil Robertson-Ravo wrote: >Just look at the "certified ColdFusion developer"... you would be surprised >how many of these I have seen which know jack-shit about CFML and App >development. I share the same frustration. To me the 'Certification' programs have become (with the Partner Programs) just another profit center. Neither are so much there (to all appearances) to support development, nor even to promote wider use of the software. This I regard as short-sighted in a world where PHP and JSP technologies are coming on as strong...and as flexible...as they are. Even more frustrating are the platitudes from Macromedia. They keep saying (here at House of Fusion) 'Hang on! We're re-assessing our partner programs. Of course we can't TELL you YET what we're planning, but it'll be REALLY GOOD. We promise.' Well, we've been hearing that for months, yet nothing, not one thing has been forthcoming. So one concludes that either Macromedia management is the sort which can't figure out what to do, can't make a decision and put a program together. Or that they're just saying what they think we want to hear in order to get us to sign up for yet another year of partnership, take a few more certification courses, and send some more checks. Meanwhile, no leads. No reseller program that would allow us to make a profit on some of the Enterpri$e Licen$es we sell as Macromedia's unpaid, de facto field sales force. Nothing substantive. I'm pretty disappointed in the way things are being handled, and in the way relationships are being handled. Except for a few key parners, who in the final analysis have done more for Allaire/Macromedia than Allaire/Macromedia has done for them. Come on, MM. Stop talking about some mysterious 'good stuff' coming down the pipe, and SHOW US THE PARTNERSHIP PROGRAMS THAT WILL HELP US BUILD OUR BUSINESSES in the post .COM era!!!! Greg Bullough

I have to agree with all, as a Consultant I see a great value in the language and even more so with MX, however if there is no reseller program and the partnership program stay's the way it is, more and more consulting companies are going to turn to other languages that offer less of a monetary hassle and are easier sells with there clients. This is not a surprise that this would happen its just basic math; the more I have the client payout for software + services the more likely I may lose the client to someone else offering more development time for less cost. We aren't seeing incentives to sell the server and to get quality people to maintain the solutions after the fact. This is a huge problem I thought the reason for certification is to certify that someone can do the Job. Sadly you get more out of the brain bench exam the Macromedia CF exam. Now add the fact that Macromedia isn't throwing leads to allot of people and also add the fact that all it takes is one person to hire a "certified developer" that isn't up to par and there confidence in Macromedia is shaken. I have had this happen and it's not pretty. They also need to lower the price of there server. If they do then there will be more of a call for CF developers in the market aside from government. And that will cause the consulting demand for CF to rise as well. If you are a company that is switching to Cf for the First time you should be able to get a hell of a discount on the CF server that would make it easier to convert companies and then cause a more abundant and steadier flow of income as people upgrade. By coming up with a pricing set up like that it would show that they are confident about CF being a long term solution for companies and not just trying to "get the sale". Well enough of my two cent's, Who wants the soap box next *L* Ray Bayly Principal Bayly Consulting rbayly@baylyconsulting.com At 04:56 PM 1/4/2003 +0000, Neil Robertson-Ravo wrote: >Just look at the "certified ColdFusion developer"... you would be surprised >how many of these I have seen which know jack-shit about CFML and App >development. I share the same frustration. To me the 'Certification' programs have become (with the Partner Programs) just another profit center. Neither are so much there (to all appearances) to support development, nor even to promote wider use of the software. This I regard as short-sighted in a world where PHP and JSP technologies are coming on as strong...and as flexible...as they are. Even more frustrating are the platitudes from Macromedia. They keep saying (here at House of Fusion) 'Hang on! We're re-assessing our partner programs. Of course we can't TELL you YET what we're planning, but it'll be REALLY GOOD. We promise.' Well, we've been hearing that for months, yet nothing, not one thing has been forthcoming. So one concludes that either Macromedia management is the sort which can't figure out what to do, can't make a decision and put a program together. Or that they're just saying what they think we want to hear in order to get us to sign up for yet another year of partnership, take a few more certification courses, and send some more checks. Meanwhile, no leads. No reseller program that would allow us to make a profit on some of the Enterpri$e Licen$es we sell as Macromedia's unpaid, de facto field sales force. Nothing substantive. I'm pretty disappointed in the way things are being handled, and in the way relationships are being handled. Except for a few key parners, who in the final analysis have done more for Allaire/Macromedia than Allaire/Macromedia has done for them. Come on, MM. Stop talking about some mysterious 'good stuff' coming down the pipe, and SHOW US THE PARTNERSHIP PROGRAMS THAT WILL HELP US BUILD OUR BUSINESSES in the post .COM era!!!! Greg Bullough

At 04:35 PM 1/4/2003 -0500, you wrote: >This >is not a surprise that this would happen its just basic math; the more I >have the client payout for software + services the more likely I may >lose the client to someone else offering more development time for less >cost. I've told MM this over and over again. Either they don't 'get' it or the ones they work for don't get it. It was a different story three years ago, before PHP. And it will be a very different story in a year, when there are free JSP tags to do all of CF's work, a free server in Tomcat, and the only thing to purchase will be the development envirnoment (but if you really want to, you'll STILL be able to use Dreamweaver with some extensions to have what you're used to...but as a consultant you won't have to justify $1000-$10,000 per copy for app server software to each client). Yes, right now JSP is a pain to work with, but it won't be that way in a year or less. Meanwhile, MM may still be trying to convince us the Flash Remoting is the best thing since sliced bread (yeah, right, been there done that with Java Applets, have the scars to prove it). >We aren't seeing incentives to sell the server and to get quality people >to maintain the solutions after the fact. Right. In fact MM's approach is driving people towards other solutions. >  This is a huge problem I >thought the reason for certification is to certify that someone can do >the Job. No, the reason is to garner a few more $$$$ off the product. Same reason for MCSE and for Red Hat certifcation for that matter. Training is a profit center. You do the math...figure the cost per class time the number of students plus the price of the exam. It is hugely profitable. On the other hand, Ben Forta's books are a terrific bargain, adequate to train any but the most doltish programmer, and were part of the initial charm of Cold Fusion...you could transition to the product in no time! >  Sadly you get more out of the brain bench exam the Macromedia >CF exam. Now add the fact that Macromedia isn't throwing leads to allot >of people and also add the fact that all it takes is one person to hire >a "certified developer" that isn't up to par and there confidence in >Macromedia is shaken. I have had this happen and it's not pretty. I've never seen any 'certification' program that guaranteed anything more than someone could buy the study guide/take the course and pass the exam. They still may not know an algorithm from a hole in the ground. >They also need to lower the price of there server. Absolutely. They're on the right track with Pro. But they have to get features like JSP custom tags into Pro (where they belong) and not stop dreaming that they can get $10 grand per copy for Enterprise...the value proposition just isn't there. >If they do then there >will be more of a call for CF developers in the market aside from >government. And that will cause the consulting demand for CF to rise as >well. There is certainly an economy of scale as well as a 'critical mass' factor at work here. And PHP and JSP are making inroads a lot faster than I, as a (formerly) committed CF developer would like to see. MM needs to listen...really listen...to the smaller consulting shops out here. CF used to be the *perfect* solution for us, but the take-aways of the last several years as well as the fundamental weaknesses of the partner programs have really changed that.  It's just getting to be harder and harder to make the use of CF pay. Greg

Just to be clear, I was asking specifically about the Associate Partner program.   I would guess that most of the successful partners you've listed are in the Alliance program.  There's quite a difference between the two. When the new Associate program was unveiled I remember thinking that it was a clear attempt to get rid of the little guys.  At that point where I let my partnership expire.     And just why exactly do we need to contact you offline to get insight on how we might communicate better with MM?  Seems like the community would be better served by sharing that information with everyone. We've got a client w/3 CF Enterprise subscriptions and MM can't confirm that any of the licenses have current subscriptions associated with them (although the client's supporting paperwork does validate this claim).  After months of receiving the runaround from MM our client is now asking us to consider alternative development environments - they just don't want to deal with MM anymore.  My sense is that enrollment in the Associate Partnership program would not give me any more insight into how MM handles these issues. So this is where we are: Our clients want us to consider alternatives to CF because MM is impossible to communicate with and MM can't be bothered with small solution providers who don't sell CF in a large enough volume.  It's almost as if MM is encouraging us to take up PHP. Java you say?  Sure, but I'll look at Tomcat before I invest any more of my companies future in an MM product.

The DRK is the Developer Resource Kit: http://www.macromedia.com/software/drk/ Christian On Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 05:08 PM, Jeffry Houser wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

DRKs! I'd have to say leads would be #1 for us...followed by extra software...then DRKs Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com > What additional benefits would people like to see from the Associate Partner program in addition to those related to software?  So far, I have seen people mention business leads and the DRK.  Are those the big ones? > > Christian >

Actually, realistically: 1) Leads 2) Software (DRKs etc..) Stace I'd have to say leads would be #1 for us...followed by extra software...then DRKs Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com > What additional benefits would people like to see from the Associate Partner program in addition to those related to software?  So far, I have seen people mention business leads and the DRK.  Are those the big ones? > > Christian >

THe main thing for me would be: 1) Leads 2) Leads 3) Leads.... ;-) With the money from the leads, I can purchase the software. :-) - Marcelo ================================================ Level 2 Labs, Inc. .Net - ColdFusion MX - Web Services - Networks http://www.level2labs.com/ <http://www.level2labs.com/>; ColdFusion Tool Box Over 30 ColdFusion Objects for only $99! http://www.coldfusiontoolbox.com/ <http://www.coldfusiontoolbox.com/>; MApps Web Based Applications http://www.mynetapps.com/ <http://www.mynetapps.com/>; ================================================ Actually, realistically: 1) Leads 2) Software (DRKs etc..) Stace I'd have to say leads would be #1 for us...followed by extra software...then DRKs Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com > What additional benefits would people like to see from the Associate Partner program in addition to those related to software?  So far, I have seen people mention business leads and the DRK.  Are those the big ones? > > Christian >

There are various levels, the associate program cost 795 dollars and has o requirements really, you are not going to get much when you don’t have to put out much, The Alliance Program cost more and you must do more. Premier partners get all the leads, but they also spend upwards of 40-50,000 per year to foster the Macromedia relationship and partnership. John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com Since it's been implied that one of the main purposes of the Associate level Partnership is to open a channel of communications I'd like to see some more meaningful communication between partners and whatever MM staff may be needed to resolve issues that occasionally arise with clients.   I think I'm also somewhat bothered by the appearance that Associate Partners are somehow second-class participants.  For example, on the MM web site under Partner Benefits "Invitation to regional partners meetings, roadshows, product releases and other partner WebEx events" states that there is "Limited Availability" for Associate Partners.  What's that all about?   Overall I would like to see more of a clearly defined value in participating in the program.  Right now I have the sense that MM takes the money, pronounces you a partner, then asks that you leave them alone. kb > What additional benefits would people like to see from the Associate Partner program in addition to those related to software?  So far, I have seen people mention business leads and the DRK.  Are those the big ones? > > Christian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.435 / Virus Database: 244 - Release Date: 12/30/2002

  Oh..   That makes sense.  Thanks! At 06:33 PM 1/5/2003 -0500, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Happy New Year, CF-Partners: I have to admit that I'm a little surprised by this thread. During 2002, we delivered many benefits to our entire partner community. It's true that there will always be a benefit "wish list", and some of those benefits may not be realized, but we work diligently to provide those that will contribute most significantly to the success of our partners' businesses. We heard loud and clear at the end of 2001 from traditional Allaire partners who were disappointed to no longer receive CF Studio.  In response, we provided a tools bundle, and later Studio MX to our Alliance level partners.  We provide Studio MX to Associate level partners at a 30% discount.  Differentiated benefits are not at all meant to treat any of our partner community as "second class".  It is meant to differentiate the value of being an Alliance level partner. These companies make a larger investment in Macromedia, and we recognize this. All levels of partners receive the Up-to-the-Minute newsletter which was revised at the beginning of 2002 to present you with the latest offerings, programs and announcements, ensuring that you stay current with Macromedia releases.   We centralized access to product betas because we know it's critical that you have access to new releases early for your development cycles and evaluating customer needs. We conducted worldwide roadshows, offered webexes, provided a discount on instructor led training through our participating Macromedia Authorized Training Providers.   For those wishing to embark on joint campaigns, we offer the Marketing Request Form that is posted in Partners Only.  The form describes the activity and identifies the resources required from Macromedia.  Although the budget for these activities is not unlimited, we encourage you to utilize it.   We provide access to Sales Engineers should you require presales assistance, or if your internal team needs to be brought up to speed on our latest technologies (Flash Communication Server, MX Family of products, etc.). Each of the benefits mentioned is available to ALL partners.  I hope that many of you will take advantage of them. Leads were mentioned as a benefit that most partners would like to receive.  I hear this often from partners.  Macromedia has a very strict privacy policy that prohibits the distribution of masses of leads to a third party.  Leads that are shared with partners are done so through the territory manager who has developed relationships with partners within his territory.  Based on the opportunity, the rep identifies a partner with appropriate expertise. Kirk:  It sounds as if your customer has run into an issue that is best managed by Macromedia Customer Service.  If that's with whom this issue currently lies, I'm sure they're doing everything possible to resolve it.  It's not likely that partnership would allow you to assist in any better way.   That said, if you were an Associate level partner, you could send an email to an alias called partners@macromedia.com.  This is managed by a very conscientious member of my team who would identify the appropriate person within Macromedia to resolve your customer's subscription issue.   Best regards, Meg Meg-Ann Meaney Director, Partner Programs Macromedia, Inc. 617-219-7728 Hi Kirk, I really find it interesting, that you brought this topic to the light. I was asking myself the same things over and over. What is the benefit ? How can MM improve the situation for the associate partners and other partners as well ? I personally would much appreciate, if MM would do some campaigns together with partners especially in terms of ColdFusion. I can imagine myself, doing a (e.g.) hosting initiative together with all the other MM-CF-hosting-partners. It would help the partners to get better into business and MM to be more accepted as a real alternative against others as PHP, ASP etc. Is someone from MM reading this whole thread ? Would be great ! What do you guys think ? Uwe Friday, January 3, 2003, 9:16:17 PM, you wrote: KB> Interesting.  This is kind of what I expected.  I was previously an Associate KB> Partner through the Allaire program.  Back then Associate Partners actually KB> got Studio in addition to the server products.  I actually did get a few leads KB> through Allaire - one in particular has become one of our main clients. KB> I'm having a hard time seeing the value proposition of the current Associate KB> Partner program.  Since Studio is no longer included at this level Associate KB> Partners are basically just getting CF Server.  I could easily buy a Pro license KB> for the cost of membership in the program.  Alternately, the Enterprise KB> development versions are available to all. KB> I raised this issue because one of our clients is having major ongoing KB> problems dealing with Macromedia on their CF Enterpise subscriptions (MM KB> alternately has no record of their subscriptions or an incomplete record KB> depending on which day you speak to them).  At any rate, I've found myself KB> wondering whether or not participating in the Partner program would actually KB> put me in a better position to provide service to my client.  At this point I'm KB> inclined to think not. KB>

Hi, Jeffry: I'm not sure if anyone responded to you.  DRK is Developer Resource Kit.  http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/logged_in/mchambers_drk.html Meg-Ann Meaney Director, Partner Programs Macromedia, Inc. 617-219-7728   If DotComIt were to consider becoming a partner, it would be leads first, then software.   I read through the thread, but cannot for the life of me figure out what DRK means.  Presumably we are not talking about the German Red Cross. <http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=DRK>; At 09:30 PM 1/5/2003 +0000, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Bravo, my friend! Meg-Ann Meaney Director, Partner Programs Macromedia, Inc. 617-219-7728 At my previous company it was the same thing, then we started to put on solutions seminars and get Macromedia Executives to speak at them, we sold the products and ran CFUG's We attended all the partner events and roadshows. Then it started to poor in. You sometimes have to do what I did. I got a deal that moved 6 CF servers for Macromedia, I called the local territory manager and gave him the heads up, we jointly closed it. Once that happened deals started to come in. I went back to Boston and met the entire inside sales team showed them a presentation of what we could offer. I showed them how a development partners expertise could help them achieve more technical wins. Us partners are the key to implementations and technical wins, we are the ones that build the innovative solutions. You will not get leads at the Associate Level, it is just a communications channel. You have to move up to higher levels of the Alliance. Now I am feeling what you guys are feeling I am an associate partner. I can say that there is a benefit to being a Premier Partner. At ISITE out gross revenue was appx 3.0 million for 2002. 85 percent of that revenue was connected or related to the Macromedia Partnership. If anyone would like to talk more about the partnership program e-mail me. I am not trying to brag or hurt anyone. I want to see all partners do well. And if a Partnership Program is ran effectively from both ends it will work. Macromedia has one of the better partner programs out there. I mean how often does Microsoft kick you deals? John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com In particular, you probably should give up on any notion of getting a lead. We've been a partner since 1998, have have never had a single lead attributable to working with Allaire and now Macromedia. Greg At 08:13 PM 1/3/2003 +0100, cf-talk@sdsolutions.de wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Meg, My departure from ISITE was unfortunate. However I enjoyed working so much in the alliance I got my own company up and going with the Alliance. I will be working in Portland and Seattle as well, however to avoid any conflict of interest with ISITE I am only working ASIA for a few months. I really wanted to find employment with Macromedia and in particular the Partner Program. I do realize that with budgets the way they are it is hard to invent positions. I recommended that you guys have a field readiness rep. This person would visit potential partners and sell them on the program. Once the company came on board the person would spend a couple of weeks building the program with them and training them. Of course they would have to pay a premium. I just wanted to plant that seed with you. Maybe when the economy gets better we can further explore this. John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com Bravo, my friend! Meg-Ann Meaney Director, Partner Programs Macromedia, Inc. 617-219-7728 At my previous company it was the same thing, then we started to put on solutions seminars and get Macromedia Executives to speak at them, we sold the products and ran CFUG's We attended all the partner events and roadshows. Then it started to poor in. You sometimes have to do what I did. I got a deal that moved 6 CF servers for Macromedia, I called the local territory manager and gave him the heads up, we jointly closed it. Once that happened deals started to come in. I went back to Boston and met the entire inside sales team showed them a presentation of what we could offer. I showed them how a development partners expertise could help them achieve more technical wins. Us partners are the key to implementations and technical wins, we are the ones that build the innovative solutions. You will not get leads at the Associate Level, it is just a communications channel. You have to move up to higher levels of the Alliance. Now I am feeling what you guys are feeling I am an associate partner. I can say that there is a benefit to being a Premier Partner. At ISITE out gross revenue was appx 3.0 million for 2002. 85 percent of that revenue was connected or related to the Macromedia Partnership. If anyone would like to talk more about the partnership program e-mail me. I am not trying to brag or hurt anyone. I want to see all partners do well. And if a Partnership Program is ran effectively from both ends it will work. Macromedia has one of the better partner programs out there. I mean how often does Microsoft kick you deals? John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com In particular, you probably should give up on any notion of getting a lead. We've been a partner since 1998, have have never had a single lead attributable to working with Allaire and now Macromedia. Greg At 08:13 PM 1/3/2003 +0100, cf-talk@sdsolutions.de wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I knew that you left ISITE and started your own company, right?  I'm pleased you continued with the Alliance!  I didn't realize you were interested in Macromedia. The role you describe is what our APMs are chartered with, but I think you're talking about a whole new level of business planning and engagement. You're correct that there are very few positions available right now, but I will certainly keep this in mind as we continue with our planning for 2003. Good luck and best wishes in the new year! Meg Meg-Ann Meaney Director, Partner Programs Macromedia, Inc. 617-219-7728 Meg, My departure from ISITE was unfortunate. However I enjoyed working so much in the alliance I got my own company up and going with the Alliance. I will be working in Portland and Seattle as well, however to avoid any conflict of interest with ISITE I am only working ASIA for a few months. I really wanted to find employment with Macromedia and in particular the Partner Program. I do realize that with budgets the way they are it is hard to invent positions. I recommended that you guys have a field readiness rep. This person would visit potential partners and sell them on the program. Once the company came on board the person would spend a couple of weeks building the program with them and training them. Of course they would have to pay a premium. I just wanted to plant that seed with you. Maybe when the economy gets better we can further explore this. John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com Bravo, my friend! Meg-Ann Meaney Director, Partner Programs Macromedia, Inc. 617-219-7728 At my previous company it was the same thing, then we started to put on solutions seminars and get Macromedia Executives to speak at them, we sold the products and ran CFUG's We attended all the partner events and roadshows. Then it started to poor in. You sometimes have to do what I did. I got a deal that moved 6 CF servers for Macromedia, I called the local territory manager and gave him the heads up, we jointly closed it. Once that happened deals started to come in. I went back to Boston and met the entire inside sales team showed them a presentation of what we could offer. I showed them how a development partners expertise could help them achieve more technical wins. Us partners are the key to implementations and technical wins, we are the ones that build the innovative solutions. You will not get leads at the Associate Level, it is just a communications channel. You have to move up to higher levels of the Alliance. Now I am feeling what you guys are feeling I am an associate partner. I can say that there is a benefit to being a Premier Partner. At ISITE out gross revenue was appx 3.0 million for 2002. 85 percent of that revenue was connected or related to the Macromedia Partnership. If anyone would like to talk more about the partnership program e-mail me. I am not trying to brag or hurt anyone. I want to see all partners do well. And if a Partnership Program is ran effectively from both ends it will work. Macromedia has one of the better partner programs out there. I mean how often does Microsoft kick you deals? John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com In particular, you probably should give up on any notion of getting a lead. We've been a partner since 1998, have have never had a single lead attributable to working with Allaire and now Macromedia. Greg At 08:13 PM 1/3/2003 +0100, cf-talk@sdsolutions.de wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

At 10:42 PM 1/5/2003 -0500, you wrote: >We heard loud and clear at the end of 2001 from traditional Allaire >partners who were disappointed to no longer receive CF Studio.  In >response, we provided a tools bundle, and later Studio MX to our Alliance >level partners.  We provide Studio MX to Associate level partners at a 30% >discount.   I will say that it can be found for this much on the open market.   Not being part of the partner program, I will refrain from commenting on any of the other benefits. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:jeff@farcryfly.com DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20>; My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com -- Ask me how to get a free recording of your band -- Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com 80's, 90's, and Now: http://www.mtmexperience.com

At 10:42 PM 1/5/2003 -0500, Meg-Ann Meaney wrote: >Happy New Year, CF-Partners: > >I have to admit that I'm a little surprised by this thread. I have to admit I'm a little surprised you are surprised. I, and others, have told you and your staff these things privately over the past year or more. So I'm surprised that you would be surprised unless of course... >  During 2002, we delivered many benefits to our entire partner community. > It's true that there will always be a benefit "wish list", and some of > those benefits may not be realized, but we work diligently to provide > those that will contribute most significantly to the success of our > partners' businesses. ...you have convinced yourself that, as one Mark Twain once put it 'Wagner's music is better than it sounds.'  MM's ongoing *apologia* for the partnership program is becoming very tiresome. I, in particular, am very tired of being told how much we are benefiting and how good it is for us. This implied 'you just don't understand what a good deal it is' is tantamount to your telling us that you know our businesses better than we know our business. It has become a rather insulting chorus, and I really wish MM would stop it. Meg , it seems to me that you just aren't listening. Meg, you're not making substantive changes in the program (even though they have been promised, and DON'T make me dig up the email promising same), but rather trying to 'manage perceptions' out here in the development community. We don't need spin. We need a more equitable program that will help us survive in the new-old economy. Please listen, rather than continually telling us that we don't need the things we ask for. >We heard loud and clear at the end of 2001 from traditional Allaire >partners who were disappointed to no longer receive CF Studio.  In >response, we provided a tools bundle, and later Studio MX to our Alliance >level partners.  We provide Studio MX to Associate level partners at a 30% >discount. Meg, please go to price-grabber.com. Note that we can buy Studio MX for $636.00, right now, today, retail. To avail myself of the 30% discount, I have to pay $899 at the MM web site. 70% of that is $629.30. Of course, I'll likely have to pay sales tax on that, bringing the price to $673.00 In other words, an associate partner gets to pay only $37.00 more than the 'street' price for Studio MX. I guess we have the satisfaction of knowing that all of the profit goes right to MM. On the other hand, it makes it clear that, even at a 30% discount, there is still quite a profit. Otherwise, the software merchants couldn't actually be selling it for  LESS THAN WHAT MM SELLS IT TO US FOR. Tell us again, Meg, what a good deal we're getting. How *responsive* to our business needs this is. (Now I know the MM apologists out there will tell me that MM has a right to make profit on their software, too, but I'll remind them that MM has ALREADY charged me for partnership, and that MM won't let *me* do the same thing...make a profit on the copies of CF Server that I sell to clients.) >Differentiated benefits are not at all meant to treat any of our partner >community as "second class".  It is meant to differentiate the value of >being an Alliance level partner. These companies make a larger investment >in Macromedia, and we recognize this. Meg, we're a 'Cold Fusion Shop.' We really can't make any bigger 'investment in Macromedia.' >All levels of partners receive the Up-to-the-Minute newsletter which was >revised at the beginning of 2002 to present you with the latest offerings, >programs and announcements, ensuring that you stay current with Macromedia >releases. 'Stay current with Macromedia releases?' That isn't so important as having a well-supported and carefully-implemented upgrade strategy. As I've told your staff before, things like not providing stubs between CF 5.0 and Apache 2 demonstrate MM's relative insensitivity to the realities of the I/T world...and make our lives a lot harder, leaving us scrambling to get our web-servers secured with later Apache releases while not being *forced* to upgrade to MX before we or or clients believe the business decision is warrented. >We centralized access to product betas because we know it's critical that >you have access to new releases early for your development cycles and >evaluating customer needs. Actually, Meg, product betas are relatively low on many of our lists. Indeed, we find that each new release of Cold Fusion comes out as no better than 'Beta' quality, and that we can hardly afford that kind of instability. Frankly, we can't afford to do the 'beta' testing that Macromedia should be doing internally. We already act as MM's de facto, unpaid, field sales force. We can't afford to act as MM's de facto, unpaid, QA department. Sorry to be blunt, but business reality is rather a blunt instrument. >We conducted worldwide roadshows, offered webexes, provided a discount on >instructor led training through our participating Macromedia Authorized >Training Providers. But Meg, you also force us to take this training as a condition of levels of partnership...not leaving us the alternative of the self-training of which we are capable via the fine work of Mr. Forta et.al.   And the cost of the courses themselves is a drop in the bucket compared to the billable hours my staff can't bill during the hours/days they are in class or traveling to/from class. It would be far better if you'd let us manage our own training. It's already well-established that formal class-attendance is not, a priori, a better way for experienced developers to acquire new skills. >Leads were mentioned as a benefit that most partners would like to >receive.  I hear this often from partners.  Macromedia has a very strict >privacy policy that prohibits the distribution of masses of leads to a >third party.  Leads that are shared with partners are done so through the >territory manager who has developed relationships with partners within his >territory.  Based on the opportunity, the rep identifies a partner with >appropriate expertise. We've been a partner, actively developing almost entirely in CF, for the better part of four years. We'd gladly take our territory manager to lunch and discuss business. If that manager ever showed any interest. But he (or she) really hasn't. Meg, please *respond* to partners concerns. Please look at the reality (such as the Studio MX reality-check above, and such as the our-territory-manager-doesn't-know we-exist reality check) of what the benefits are and are not. WORK WITH US. LISTEN TO US. WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER BUT THERE'S NO POINT IN EITHER OF US INVESTING IN PARTNERSHIP PROGRAMS THAT AREN'T CONTRIBUTING TO EITHER OF OUR STRATEGIC OBJECTIVES. Above all, let's manage reality, not perceptions. Greg

Bravo, my friend!

>>I have to admit that I'm a little surprised by this thread. >>During 2002, And herein lies our problem. >>Studio.  In response, we provided a tools bundle, and later >>Studio MX to our Alliance level partners. Hello. >>These companies make a >>larger investment in Macromedia, and we recognize this. I beg to differ on this point.  I would argue that one small shop, say 5 people, devotes proportionally more of it's resources to ANY venture or partnership it undertakes than, say a company with even just 50 employees. What you are calling investment in Marcromedia is little more than payment for services rendered. Perhaps the suggestion from another poster to treat different levels of partnership as needing completely different benefits is new at MM? >>All levels of partners receive the Up-to-the-Minute newsletter worthless drivel IMHO, and I do not appreciate receiving 3-6 identically addressed copies of anything thank you very much. >>We centralized access to product betas because we know it's Thank you. >>We conducted worldwide roadshows, offered webexes, provided a >>discount on instructor led training through our participating >>Macromedia Authorized Training Providers. Your webexes are (at least the ones I attended) are just another way MM market's it's software. Let's face it, your preaching to the choir. What bothers me is the constant promise of "better" and "greater" things to come from MM partner programs.   ">>I have to admit that I'm a little surprised by this thread."  To me says, "We've heard you before, now what was that you said?"  Don't worry, I get the message "loud and clear". Little guys are not MM's priority as we simply did not pay you enough. Software benie's are the only value in MM's associate program, (and even these are but a shadow of their former selves).  Take a poll, how many of us ("associate's) were super disappointed to NOT receive an IDE in the latest kit? not even Homesite.  MM does what makes them the most money, and as a business that is exactly right. So think about this: IIRC, "alliance" membership goes for $795, cfmx pro for roughly the same.  Suppose I have 3-7 developers and my shop can develop on a central server, and all developers need an IDE.  If I buy either the partnership or CFMX (pro) I spend under $1000, but then have to buy 3-7 copies of some IDE (yep, you can bet it aint MM's).  MM sells their IDE for $899.  Do the math.  MM doesn't want to loose those sales, even at %30 off it's $4400ish (I seem to recall that the %30 was for ONE copy anyway?) Likewise, we, as businesses, do what makes us the most money. Thank you, -Craig Craig Thomas President 201-784-8307 craig@codexinteractive.com www.codexinteractive.com >>Happy New Year, CF-Partners: >> we delivered many benefits to our entire partner ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- We provide Studio MX ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Meg-Ann Meaney said; "...Leads that are shared with partners are done so through the territory manager who has developed relationships with partners within his territory. ..." Meg-Ann We have NEVER been told who our territory manager is let alone been contacted by him/her (this is the first time I've heard of such a person). Perhaps this is the problem?  Shouldn't territory managers do just that? Contact each partner and at least ask "What can MM do for you?" I'd say that's just common sense ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com

If you go on Partners only you can get a territory map with all the area managers on it and their contact info. John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com Meg-Ann Meaney said; "...Leads that are shared with partners are done so through the territory manager who has developed relationships with partners within his territory. ..." Meg-Ann We have NEVER been told who our territory manager is let alone been contacted by him/her (this is the first time I've heard of such a person). Perhaps this is the problem?  Shouldn't territory managers do just that? Contact each partner and at least ask "What can MM do for you?" I'd say that's just common sense ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com

Thanks John.... I still think that when you sign up (and every 3-6 months) the territory managers should at least call and check on how things are going and make sure partners are aware of any worthwhile changes (yes we get the newsletter etc. but these things can fall through the cracks when you're busy). Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- territory. > ..." > > Meg-Ann We have NEVER been told who our territory manager is let alone been ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

8 territory managers and 400 partners, that would be a lot of calls. John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com Thanks John.... I still think that when you sign up (and every 3-6 months) the territory managers should at least call and check on how things are going and make sure partners are aware of any worthwhile changes (yes we get the newsletter etc. but these things can fall through the cracks when you're busy). Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- territory. > ..." > > Meg-Ann We have NEVER been told who our territory manager is let alone been ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Yes it would be a lot of calls....hmmm I wonder what they are doing with their time now?? I'm just saying that some personal interaction instead of "go to the partners only section" would be nice.  That way these managers can get to know the people they apparently manage and come up with custom solutions to drive partner and MM business in their territory.  If 8 managers can't do the job.....hire some more with the partner fees ;-) Thanks for the success story you posted John...it shows there is hope and I will definately be getting in touch with you offline soon to pick your brain ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- newsletter ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- territory ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- person). ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Well, I will tell you that back in Newton and In SF the Sales teams work very hard. There are very busy calling leads trying to move software. In this economy it has been a challenge for all of us. At my old company we sold ColdFusion and JRUN server. In the year 1999 and 2000 we where tracking many many more deals per quarter. We consider a deal to be minimum 1 server. Many times the client will purchase studio seats as well. Last year we tracked 75% less deals per person per quarter. Many company's would just flat say, we develop 100% in house. But you kept working and then you came across that company that said, hey, come out and show us what you can do. You have to pan thru a lot of black sand before you hit the Gold Nuggets. One thing that worked very good for us is the executive seminar series. We rented out a banquet room at the Hilton Hotel, it cost us about $600 we also catered the event with a solid breakfast, that cost about $400. We had Dominic Galello Executive Vice President in charge of Macromedia Products come out to speak. That was the draw. We sent invitations over 100 people such as Executives, VP's and Directors of local and national companies with a local presence. We had 60 people show up. Dominic talked a bit about the state of the industry and the in detail about the MX vision. We then presented some of our work such as www.subaruprimalquest.com . At the end we took surveys and offered to do a free tech day. Many of the Executives wanted to have us catch their people up to speed. From the numerous on-site engagements we where able to grab some very solid development deals. It was the best $1,000 we ever spent. Macromedia does offer a program called "Seminar in a Box" that is very similar to this. I would be very willing to talk in more detail with anyone that would like to know more. I received an e-mail earlier that asked why am I giving away all this information. Well I want to see partners do well. I am located in Taiwan and China so I am not concerned about competition.   John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com Yes it would be a lot of calls....hmmm I wonder what they are doing with their time now?? I'm just saying that some personal interaction instead of "go to the partners only section" would be nice.  That way these managers can get to know the people they apparently manage and come up with custom solutions to drive partner and MM business in their territory.  If 8 managers can't do the job.....hire some more with the partner fees ;-) Thanks for the success story you posted John...it shows there is hope and I will definately be getting in touch with you offline soon to pick your brain ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. bryan@electricedgesystems.com --------------------------------------------------------- Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com --------------------------------------------------------- Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder & Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- newsletter ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- territory ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- person). ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

8 Managers/400 Partners = 50 To make sure they got one call per year, each manager would have to make one call per week... In my opinion, a phone call goes a VERY long way to making Partners happy. Lets them know someone's there for them - and listening.  I'm sure managers sometimes encounter bitchy or unpleasant partner contacts, so I doubt it's something the Managers particularly like to do, but it's very much needed. -Cameron ----------------- Cameron Childress Sumo Consulting Inc. --- cell:  678-637-5072 aim:   cameroncf email: cameronc@mindspring.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

At 12:32 PM 1/6/03 -0500, Camer >In my opinion, a phone call goes a VERY long way to making Partners happy. >Lets them know someone's there for them - and listening. But perhaps therein lies the rub. Listening. Listening does not mean hearing a customer talk about his business problems with the program and then invalidating what is said. Unfortunately, that seems to be the default behavior we're getting from Macromedia to this point. Indeed on this thread. If I just want to be told how wrong I am, I don't need to pay Macromedia to do that. Greg

<cf_readatyourownrisk humorValue="AnyonesGuess"> At 01:34 PM 1/6/2003 -0500, you wrote: >If I just want to be told how wrong I am, I don't need to pay Macromedia >to do that.   If anyone is interested, I'll be offering a "Tell me I'm wrong program."   Depending on your partner level you'll receive a randomly generated derogatory email every month, week, or day.  For those important business decisions, such as launching a new product or sales campaign we can generate emails tailored specifically to point out the fallacy of your idea.   All this at half the cost of becoming a Macromedia partner. </cf_readatyourownrisk> -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:jeff@farcryfly.com DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20>; My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com -- Ask me how to get a free recording of your band -- Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com 80's, 90's, and Now: http://www.mtmexperience.com

At 12:19 PM 1/6/03, John wrote: >8 territory managers and 400 partners, that would be a lot of calls. That's 50 calls per manager.  If their job is to service these partners, 50 calls would be nothing.  I talk to that many of our reps in a week.

One a week per TM on average, using your numbers. Not too much to ask of a marketing person, eh wot? Greg At 09:19 AM 1/6/03 -0800, John Coelho wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

One good lead could cover that... At 04:54 PM 1/5/2003 -0800, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Macromedia is eating its seed corn. They appear to view their partners as a source of direct revenue, rather than a potential source of revenue development. If there's any long term hope for ColdFusion as a platform, it depends on the development of a network effect. Macromedia should be inundating anybody who cares to be a partner with boxes of software and development licenses, betas, discounts, incentives, etc.--especially given that leads seem not to be a major benefit of partnership. The have to get the product OUT THERE. Is charging a partner $1200 for a piece of software really that much better a revenue proposition than charging, say, $300 and reaping the increased goodwill and evangelism? Isn't the $300-paying partner going to be more likely to use ColdFusion on jobs for clients? And won't that increased likelihood lead to more client purchases of ColdFusion at full price? And more demand for CF hosting? Around and around we go. But to grab that $1200, Macromedia may be annoying larger partners, alienating smaller ones, and turning away potential new ones. Just some thoughts. Ken -- Kenneth S. Redler ken@comvision.com

LOL John Coelho Vice President of Operations 6-6 Fl, Far East World Trade Center, 79, Sec 1, Hsin Tai 5 Rd. Hsi Chih City, Taipei Hsien Taiwan, R.O.C. 221 (tel)  886-2-2698-3836 (fax) 886-2-2698-3838 john@appositesolutions.com www.appositesolutions.com <cf_readatyourownrisk humorValue="AnyonesGuess"> At 01:34 PM 1/6/2003 -0500, you wrote: >If I just want to be told how wrong I am, I don't need to pay Macromedia >to do that.   If anyone is interested, I'll be offering a "Tell me I'm wrong program."   Depending on your partner level you'll receive a randomly generated derogatory email every month, week, or day.  For those important business decisions, such as launching a new product or sales campaign we can generate emails tailored specifically to point out the fallacy of your idea.   All this at half the cost of becoming a Macromedia partner. </cf_readatyourownrisk> -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:jeff@farcryfly.com DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20>; My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com -- Ask me how to get a free recording of your band -- Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com 80's, 90's, and Now: http://www.mtmexperience.com