CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids

Mike Isn't Kay's  idea really great? I didn't mean using trying to compete with word for producing clear, concise html -- who could do that :) Rather, schools teach word and excel for their data presentation and problem-solving capabilities, respectively. More importantly, the use of these tools is likely standalone.   CF4K, would broaden the problem-solving and presentation capabilities and add the ability to interact with others over the web or a LAN. All the schools are wired for the internet, right ? -- I saw Bill and Al on TV, laying the cables.  And we continue to pay taxes (phone bills) for this. So the Internet should available to all schools (but access may be restricted). I think that many high schools have LANs for their computer labs. These likely are used mainly by the instructors to broadcast the lesson to all the displays and to monitor or assist individual students. Your idea about  DWMX is an excellent one. I think we could go a step further. Make available a Modified Trial version of CFMX especially for classrooms.  One that they could install on a server (or the main computer on the LAN, that acts as such). Then schools could teach problem solving, development collaboration, web/network application development, etc -- without needing access to the Internet The components would be something like:     HTML as the basic presentation layer     Flash, etc, for the rich/extended presentation layer     CFML for the problem solving layer     SQL for the data management layer The SQL piece is already available (open source, or from several vendors)  For example, Sybase_ASE has an free, easy to install, full-featured database (very similar to SQL-Server) that allows 25 (I think) concurrent connections-- even that's not a problem as CFMX pools connections. Getting back to Kay's original request, what's missing is some tutorials oriented to kids -- there are companies that specialize in doing that for any topic -- but I suspect that many of the members of this list have the talents necessary to develop CF4K material. It must be a slow day -- is some holiday approaching? This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by  the few responses. Maybe, everyone sees the potential and are busy presenting the case for this or that to those who can make it happen -- that's what I did! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 10:10 AM, Mike Brunt wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Dick Applebaum wrote: > > This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by  the few responses. <cynical> That is because most people with experience in that field expect the resistance to change that seems to be inherent in educational systems to overcome this idea just like all great ideas of the past. </cynical> Apart from the fact that I don't think it is such a great idea at all. Learn kids to write in a concise and structured way, don't give them HTML to play with (just think of the poor teachers that have to grade something that was written with inordinate amounts of <blink> tags and text colors on a purple background). If you want to add layout, add some stylesheets and XSLT and let the rounding of the mark depend on it, but the mixing of content and layout is something you *don't* want to teach children. Maybe we will raise a generation that understands the difference between form and substance. Jochem

Actually the best starting place for the youngsters is to use pre-built templates, available everywhere for free, to use Web builder apps provided by the host.  They always have the option to view and tweak the HTML code that underlies the site. More advanced languages, such as CF, PHP, XML, JavaScript, Perl, various flavors of SQL, etc. are for the more advanced students, and usually the ones that have a proclivity for structured programming languages. Web sites that appear "cool" to the kids (for the wow factor among their peers) are completely different in concept from what a business-oriented adult developer will consider "Cool." ===================================== Douglas White group Manager mailto:doug@samcfug.org http://www.samcfug.org ===================================== | Dick Applebaum wrote: | > | > This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by  the few responses. | | <cynical> | That is because most people with experience in that field expect the | resistance to change that seems to be inherent in educational systems to | overcome this idea just like all great ideas of the past. | </cynical> | | Apart from the fact that I don't think it is such a great idea at all. | Learn kids to write in a concise and structured way, don't give them | HTML to play with (just think of the poor teachers that have to grade | something that was written with inordinate amounts of <blink> tags and | text colors on a purple background). If you want to add layout, add some | stylesheets and XSLT and let the rounding of the mark depend on it, but | the mixing of content and layout is something you *don't* want to teach | children. | | Maybe we will raise a generation that understands the difference between | form and substance. | | Jochem | |

On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:13 PM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I, actually, do have some experience in that field (computer training in high school), although a bit dated. I was involved in a project that installed the first computer LAN in a high school. There was some  initial resistance (as there is with all change).  But, once people grasped the concept and the benefits, acceptance, well, just snowballed! The lab became a prototype and everyone involved benefitted -- particularly the students -- there were high school students opening their own computer consulting firms. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I agree that writing skills are very important and should be learned in a structured way. But we are discussing additional skills to bring the content (the results of writing kills) to a broader audience the internet. Kids will learn to program the Internet -- just because it's there! Why leave them to their own devices and some of the more obscure languages -- to helter-skelter mix format layout and content. Rather, teach them to do it right (better) with superior tools. Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and I to use,it is not good enough for our kids? What do you propose instead? Finally, I think that kids will not have much trouble grasping the difference between content and layout (packaging), as they are constantly exposed to it in there everyday lives. I think that, properly presented, the value of both form and substance can be learned -- and the web contains millions of examples (good and bad) of both. Dick > > Maybe we will raise a generation that understands the difference > between > form and substance. > > Jochem

Dick Applebaum wrote: > > Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and > I to use,it is not good enough for our kids? I am saying that the HTML approach is a necessary evil nowadays. But we are supposed to be educating these kids for the future, so we might just as well teach them something more durable. > What do you propose instead? Don't teach them one particular toolset, teach them concepts. Jochem -- Never steer by the rearview mirror when driving forward.

On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 03:33 AM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I agree with both points.  But, teaching/learning is enhanced  when the students participate. We need a toolset that allows the concepts to be demonstrated. Jim Davis said it best: "I think with CF you have the potential to teach the concepts without the language getting in the way. " Dick

I think it's cool...schools here teach office starting in grade 7 or less... Mike Isn't Kay's  idea really great? I didn't mean using trying to compete with word for producing clear, concise html -- who could do that :) Rather, schools teach word and excel for their data presentation and problem-solving capabilities, respectively. More importantly, the use of these tools is likely standalone.   CF4K, would broaden the problem-solving and presentation capabilities and add the ability to interact with others over the web or a LAN. All the schools are wired for the internet, right ? -- I saw Bill and Al on TV, laying the cables.  And we continue to pay taxes (phone bills) for this. So the Internet should available to all schools (but access may be restricted). I think that many high schools have LANs for their computer labs. These likely are used mainly by the instructors to broadcast the lesson to all the displays and to monitor or assist individual students. Your idea about  DWMX is an excellent one. I think we could go a step further. Make available a Modified Trial version of CFMX especially for classrooms.  One that they could install on a server (or the main computer on the LAN, that acts as such). Then schools could teach problem solving, development collaboration, web/network application development, etc -- without needing access to the Internet The components would be something like:     HTML as the basic presentation layer     Flash, etc, for the rich/extended presentation layer     CFML for the problem solving layer     SQL for the data management layer The SQL piece is already available (open source, or from several vendors)  For example, Sybase_ASE has an free, easy to install, full-featured database (very similar to SQL-Server) that allows 25 (I think) concurrent connections-- even that's not a problem as CFMX pools connections. Getting back to Kay's original request, what's missing is some tutorials oriented to kids -- there are companies that specialize in doing that for any topic -- but I suspect that many of the members of this list have the talents necessary to develop CF4K material. It must be a slow day -- is some holiday approaching? This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by  the few responses. Maybe, everyone sees the potential and are busy presenting the case for this or that to those who can make it happen -- that's what I did! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 10:10 AM, Mike Brunt wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

CF4K... What about tying in Flash4K as well?  Then there'd finally be a learning path I'd have the time and capacity to grasp :D --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com kids I think it's cool...schools here teach office starting in grade 7 or less... Mike Isn't Kay's  idea really great? I didn't mean using trying to compete with word for producing clear, concise html -- who could do that :) Rather, schools teach word and excel for their data presentation and problem-solving capabilities, respectively. More importantly, the use of these tools is likely standalone.   CF4K, would broaden the problem-solving and presentation capabilities and add the ability to interact with others over the web or a LAN. All the schools are wired for the internet, right ? -- I saw Bill and Al on TV, laying the cables.  And we continue to pay taxes (phone bills) for this. So the Internet should available to all schools (but access may be restricted). I think that many high schools have LANs for their computer labs. These likely are used mainly by the instructors to broadcast the lesson to all the displays and to monitor or assist individual students. Your idea about  DWMX is an excellent one. I think we could go a step further. Make available a Modified Trial version of CFMX especially for classrooms.  One that they could install on a server (or the main computer on the LAN, that acts as such). Then schools could teach problem solving, development collaboration, web/network application development, etc -- without needing access to the Internet The components would be something like:     HTML as the basic presentation layer     Flash, etc, for the rich/extended presentation layer     CFML for the problem solving layer     SQL for the data management layer The SQL piece is already available (open source, or from several vendors)  For example, Sybase_ASE has an free, easy to install, full-featured database (very similar to SQL-Server) that allows 25 (I think) concurrent connections-- even that's not a problem as CFMX pools connections. Getting back to Kay's original request, what's missing is some tutorials oriented to kids -- there are companies that specialize in doing that for any topic -- but I suspect that many of the members of this list have the talents necessary to develop CF4K material. It must be a slow day -- is some holiday approaching? This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by  the few responses. Maybe, everyone sees the potential and are busy presenting the case for this or that to those who can make it happen -- that's what I did! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 10:10 AM, Mike Brunt wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Stacy Young wrote: > I think it's cool...schools here teach office starting in grade 7 or less... Q: Can you spell? A: F7 Jochem

> Stacy Young wrote: >> I think it's cool...schools here teach office starting in >> grade 7 or less... > Q: Can you spell? > A: F7 The keyboard shortcut for check-spelling? s. isaac dealey                954-776-0046 new epoch                      http://www.turnkey.to lead architect, tapestry cms   http://products.turnkey.to certified advanced coldfusion 5 developer http://www.macromedia.com/v1/handlers/index.cfm?ID=21816

but of course it is, heck i think it was f7 way back in word perfect on my 386, and it followed to this new thing called microsoft word, now it still lives in office xp tony kids > Stacy Young wrote: >> I think it's cool...schools here teach office starting in >> grade 7 or less... > Q: Can you spell? > A: F7 The keyboard shortcut for check-spelling? s. isaac dealey                954-776-0046 new epoch                      http://www.turnkey.to lead architect, tapestry cms   http://products.turnkey.to certified advanced coldfusion 5 developer http://www.macromedia.com/v1/handlers/index.cfm?ID=21816

This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're building e-com systems. http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:13 PM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I, actually, do have some experience in that field (computer training in high school), although a bit dated. I was involved in a project that installed the first computer LAN in a high school. There was some  initial resistance (as there is with all change).  But, once people grasped the concept and the benefits, acceptance, well, just snowballed! The lab became a prototype and everyone involved benefitted -- particularly the students -- there were high school students opening their own computer consulting firms. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I agree that writing skills are very important and should be learned in a structured way. But we are discussing additional skills to bring the content (the results of writing kills) to a broader audience the internet. Kids will learn to program the Internet -- just because it's there! Why leave them to their own devices and some of the more obscure languages -- to helter-skelter mix format layout and content. Rather, teach them to do it right (better) with superior tools. Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and I to use,it is not good enough for our kids? What do you propose instead? Finally, I think that kids will not have much trouble grasping the difference between content and layout (packaging), as they are constantly exposed to it in there everyday lives. I think that, properly presented, the value of both form and substance can be learned -- and the web contains millions of examples (good and bad) of both. Dick > > Maybe we will raise a generation that understands the difference > between > form and substance. > > Jochem

On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, Stacy Young wrote: > This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but > pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're > building > e-com systems. > > http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html > Impressed! That's quite a site! Do most of the highschools in Canada have computer labs, as in the US? With what do they build their e-com sites? Dick

On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, Stacy Young wrote: > This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but > pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're > building > e-com systems. > > http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html > Well, here is the high school that installed the first computer lab network in June 1980:      7 Apple ][ computers networked to a 5 MB Corvus Hard disk and a Centronics printer      Only the administrators Apple ][ had floppy drives. http://www.saratogahigh.org/shs/academics/academics.html My daughter is an alumnus of SHS, -- though she never took computer lab. I haven't had contact with anyone at the school since !988 -- but they seem to be doing quite well. As I mentioned, SHS was the prototype for HS computer labs all over the US. Mmmm... maybe they are already doing web stuff & just need to upgrade to dynamic content> Dick

I can't help myself... I have to chime in.  Totally OT:   Dick Applebaum wrote: > Well, here is the high school that installed the first computer lab > network in June 1980:   <snip> > http://www.saratogahigh.org/shs/academics/academics.html Small world.  I graduated from Fremont High in June 1980, which is in the same town and high school district as Saratoga High.  We were pretty fierce rivals.  At the time all we had was a few Commodore PETs, and a LOT of cobbled-together stuff, much of it hand-me-downs from parents working in/around HP, Atari, Lockheed, Fairchild et al. Wasn't it SHS where the entire senior class all got straight F's on their report cards cuz persons-unknown broke into the FUHSD system and... Tinkered?  Was either 1979 or 1980.  Killed too many gray cells since to remember exactly.   Great time/place to grow up:  Sunnyvale CA, right when all that PC stuff started. --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com

Matt Really, Really OT If you were a computer geek between 1978 and 1989, then we've probably   met! Yeah, I know FHS -- Freemont and Saratoga-Sunnyvale. I and 2 others owned some computer stores, one was  2 blocks away at   Fremont and Mary -- Computer Plus --across the parking lot from the   Velvet Turtle. You guys (FHS) were behind in some ways, but you had cable TV  & VCRs   in every classroom (unique at that time). There was a teacher there Jerry -- can't remember his last name but, he   was really progressive and liked by the students -- Jerry was trying to   set up a computer lab -- got no support from anybody. We did some small stuff with FHS, but it never really got going. Anyway, FHS was in a different district than SHS, with completely   different funding. But we had several FHS students on our payroll -- between   skateboarding, and Hires graphics they helped sell a lot of computers.     Greg Porter, Joe Wilson come to mind. A few years after you graduated, Woz tried to donate several million to   Sunnyvale HS (same district) to set up a computer lab, But, politics got in the way & they could never could figure out what   to do with the money. You/we grew in the heart of Silicon Valley, when everything was   exciting & new! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 06:43 PM, Matt Robertson wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

LAST on-list OT, I promise! We have met, I think.  I know that store if my (hazy) recollection is correct. Near a Farrells and the Bicycle Tree?  I dinked around on some ***really*** early Apple computers there.  Highly advanced casette recorder used to load programs.  Way too sophisticated for floppies. If that was you, then a) I remember it quite well and b) you bear partial blame for getting me interested in this field. Man, talk about memory lane!  I took boxing at Sunnyvale High.  Tough crowd ;) --Matt-- kids Matt Really, Really OT If you were a computer geek between 1978 and 1989, then we've probably   met! Yeah, I know FHS -- Freemont and Saratoga-Sunnyvale. I and 2 others owned some computer stores, one was  2 blocks away at   Fremont and Mary -- Computer Plus --across the parking lot from the   Velvet Turtle. You guys (FHS) were behind in some ways, but you had cable TV  & VCRs   in every classroom (unique at that time). There was a teacher there Jerry -- can't remember his last name but, he was really progressive and liked by the students -- Jerry was trying to set up a computer lab -- got no support from anybody. We did some small stuff with FHS, but it never really got going. Anyway, FHS was in a different district than SHS, with completely   different funding. But we had several FHS students on our payroll -- between   skateboarding, and Hires graphics they helped sell a lot of computers.     Greg Porter, Joe Wilson come to mind. A few years after you graduated, Woz tried to donate several million to Sunnyvale HS (same district) to set up a computer lab, But, politics got in the way & they could never could figure out what   to do with the money. You/we grew in the heart of Silicon Valley, when everything was   exciting & new! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 06:43 PM, Matt Robertson wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Part of the curriculum is Flash and DW LOL This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're building e-com systems. http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:13 PM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I, actually, do have some experience in that field (computer training in high school), although a bit dated. I was involved in a project that installed the first computer LAN in a high school. There was some  initial resistance (as there is with all change).  But, once people grasped the concept and the benefits, acceptance, well, just snowballed! The lab became a prototype and everyone involved benefitted -- particularly the students -- there were high school students opening their own computer consulting firms. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I agree that writing skills are very important and should be learned in a structured way. But we are discussing additional skills to bring the content (the results of writing kills) to a broader audience the internet. Kids will learn to program the Internet -- just because it's there! Why leave them to their own devices and some of the more obscure languages -- to helter-skelter mix format layout and content. Rather, teach them to do it right (better) with superior tools. Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and I to use,it is not good enough for our kids? What do you propose instead? Finally, I think that kids will not have much trouble grasping the difference between content and layout (packaging), as they are constantly exposed to it in there everyday lives. I think that, properly presented, the value of both form and substance can be learned -- and the web contains millions of examples (good and bad) of both. Dick > > Maybe we will raise a generation that understands the difference > between > form and substance. > > Jochem

I would say they do...school system is quite good in most areas. We had a computer lab when I was in elementary school. (All MACs/Apples)...There were maybe 15 machines....and that was back in..um...83-84 maybe? Most projects involved working with a program called Logo...it was a little turtle that u would program to draw pictures. That's actually what generated my first interest in puters. FD 60   (forward 60 pixels) RT 45   (right turn 45 degrees) FD 100 LT 90 FD 150 There were school contests for drawing more elaborate things that involved some flash-like programming... Stace On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, Stacy Young wrote: > This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but > pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're > building > e-com systems. > > http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html > Impressed! That's quite a site! Do most of the highschools in Canada have computer labs, as in the US? With what do they build their e-com sites? Dick

Yes! Logo! Who can forget the turtle & turtlegraphics? Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 05:02 PM, Stacy Young wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

This led me to do some searching for Logo and turtle graphics (2nd grade for me) and I found this, and it actually pertains to the original thread (kind of) <http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatSortOfComputationWouldInterestJuniorSchoolCh ildren> This is an off-shoot of an article talking about Logo in general. The link for that is: <http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LogoLanguage>; kids ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Maybe this thread is going a little OT here but one last comment...Just read that some elementary schools here are teaching "multimedia math"...in kindergarten !! Damn...all we did was draw with crayons and throw paint everywhere... Stace I would say they do...school system is quite good in most areas. We had a computer lab when I was in elementary school. (All MACs/Apples)...There were maybe 15 machines....and that was back in..um...83-84 maybe? Most projects involved working with a program called Logo...it was a little turtle that u would program to draw pictures. That's actually what generated my first interest in puters. FD 60   (forward 60 pixels) RT 45   (right turn 45 degrees) FD 100 LT 90 FD 150 There were school contests for drawing more elaborate things that involved some flash-like programming... Stace On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, Stacy Young wrote: > This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but > pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're > building > e-com systems. > > http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html > Impressed! That's quite a site! Do most of the highschools in Canada have computer labs, as in the US? With what do they build their e-com sites? Dick

On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 05:09 PM, Stacy Young wrote: > Maybe this thread is going a little OT here but one last > comment...Just read > that some elementary schools here are teaching "multimedia math"...in > kindergarten !! Damn...all we did was draw with crayons and throw paint > everywhere... > > What about clay-class, finger-painting and paper-machae [sp]  -- Oh, those were in High school in Pasadena, California. It's a slow day, Michael and Judith are tolerant --- --- and Kay's original post was spot on! This is an opportunity, if I've ever seen one! Dick

Ya it seems every site I've checked are into all kinds of multimedia and web... On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, Stacy Young wrote: > This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but > pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're > building > e-com systems. > > http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html > Well, here is the high school that installed the first computer lab network in June 1980:      7 Apple ][ computers networked to a 5 MB Corvus Hard disk and a Centronics printer      Only the administrators Apple ][ had floppy drives. http://www.saratogahigh.org/shs/academics/academics.html My daughter is an alumnus of SHS, -- though she never took computer lab. I haven't had contact with anyone at the school since !988 -- but they seem to be doing quite well. As I mentioned, SHS was the prototype for HS computer labs all over the US. Mmmm... maybe they are already doing web stuff & just need to upgrade to dynamic content> Dick