Studio 8 announced

If you haven't seen it, Macromedia has announced Studio 8. http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/ Dreamweaver 8 has some nice new features including better CSS support. It also have some support for XSLT development. Flash 8 is mostly video/graphics updates, but one of the cool things for developers is a built-in mobile device emulator. --- Kevin Graeme Cooperative Extension Technology Services University of Wisconsin-Extension

I wonder if Homesite is included? And, if so, if it's been updated? I did notice in the video for DW that the first server side language support mentioned was CF... Kevin Graeme wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I wonder if Homesite is included? http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/productinfo/faq/#item-1-5 > And, if so, if it's been updated? No ----------------------------   Massimo Foti Tools for ColdFusion and Dreamweaver developers: http://www.massimocorner.com ----------------------------  

Massimo Foti wrote: > http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/productinfo/faq/#item-1-5 any idea when the player will be ready to download? will it help cfforms "go fast" too?

> > http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/productinfo/faq/#item-1-5 > > any idea when the player will be ready to download? will it help cfforms > "go fast" too? I have no idea, sorry. Massimo

Flash Player 8? It's already available though not linked on the main Flash download page yet. Here's one place to get it. http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/experience/ --- Kevin Graeme Cooperative Extension Technology Services University of Wisconsin-Extension > any idea when the player will be ready to download? will it > help cfforms "go fast" too?

Kevin Graeme wrote: > Flash Player 8? It's already available though not linked on the main Flash > download page yet. Here's one place to get it. > http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/experience/ thanks. and does it put the "giddyup" into flashforms?

O yeah... wicked fast. They worked on a ton of performance upgrades. Kevin Massimo Foti wrote: > http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/productinfo/faq/#item-1-5 any idea when the player will be ready to download? will it help cfforms "go fast" too?

> If you haven't seen it, Macromedia has announced Studio 8. > http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/ > doesn't really look worth the upgrade cost ... -- mac jordan home: www.kestrel.org <http://www.kestrel.org> work: www.webhorus.net <http://www.webhorus.net> them: www.jordan-cats.org <http://www.jordan-cats.org>

I clicked on this link http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/experience/ and upgraded firefox to the flash player 8. Now Flash doesn't work at all in firefox. F'ing great. Anyone else have this problem? ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I clicked on this link > http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/experience/ > and upgraded firefox to the flash player 8. > Now Flash doesn't work at all in firefox. F'ing great. Anyone else > have this problem? > Nah, works for me. However, one thing I've noted is that it looks like FP 8 has caught many sites with their pants down in that their Flash detection scripts don't account for versions greater than 7 (even though 8 should work). For example, comedycentral.com tells me to go install Flash even though I have it installed, and their site is virtually useless from a navigation standpoint without Flash. I think it will be some time before you see a smooth transition across the web to support Flash Player 8. That being said, we need to keep in mind that the Player is still in a beta, so these sites are probably (hopefully?) doing internal testing before updating their respective sites. Regards, Dave.

I wish bad script detection was the problem for me but its not. Things work great in IE but not flash. Oh well. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I wish bad script detection was the problem for me but its not. Things > work great in IE but not flash. Oh well. > Have you made sure to install the latest beta that was released on Friday (not sure if you had a beta installed previous to that)? Also, this blog entry (well, the comments) might suggest something: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd/archives/2005/08/new_player_beta.cfm It looks like one of the popular Firefox extensions doesn't play well with Flash Player 8 content. Other than that, I have nothing else to suggest, sorry! Just trying to brainstorm with you. Regards, Dave.

> detection scripts don't account for versions greater than 7 (even > though 8 should work). For example, comedycentral.com tells me to go Ahh. Sounds like a plan is to hold of client-side Flash Player 8 updates for a while then... probably for a while after official release too - esp. as Linux versions of the player always lag a bit anyway. -- Tom Chiverton Advanced ColdFusion Programmer

I have not read the information yet, but wonder if anything has changed in regards to licensing?  I find it silly that I must pay for two licenses for each developer that happens to work part-time on a notebook and part-time on a desktop computer.  I thought the world was moving to a check-out system? So you could have say 5 licenses and 5 users working at any given time, even if you have dozens of authorized users. Constanty "Connie" DeCinko III Web Architect, Webmaster, Web Developer Lone Jet Enterprises Glendale, Arizona www.LoneJet.com

Connie, Actually I believe the license did allow for two installations of Studio, as long as both installations were not running simultaneously, just for your type of situation. Cutter Connie DeCinko wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Flash player? You can get it now...but still beta. http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashplayer/public_beta/ Massimo Foti wrote: > http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/productinfo/faq/#item-1-5 any idea when the player will be ready to download? will it help cfforms "go fast" too?

Nope - Flash player 8 works great for me in Firefox. Jason Merrill   |   E-Learning Solutions   |  icfconsulting.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- NOTICE: This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged or confidential information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of this e-mail by you is prohibited.

I had that problem with FF and Flash.  When I upgraded from Beta to FF 1.0, Flash suddenly stopped working, despite my attempts to reinstall. Ended up totally removing FF and it's profile folders and reinstalling the browser. Probably not what you wanted to hear, though. Matt Osbun Web Developer Health Systems, International I clicked on this link http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/experience/ and upgraded firefox to the flash player 8. Now Flash doesn't work at all in firefox. F'ing great. Anyone else have this problem?

Crap. I really can't afford the downtime either. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>>doesn't really look worth the upgrade cost ... Are you insane?  $399 for Dreamweaver 8, Fireworks 8, Flash Professional 8, Contribute 3, Flashpaper 2?  $399 is a STEAL.   Jason Merrill   |   E-Learning Solutions   |  icfconsulting.com NOTICE: This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged or confidential information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of this e-mail by you is prohibited.

> >>doesn't really look worth the upgrade cost ... > Are you insane?  $399 for Dreamweaver 8, Yeah, but what new features are their that you need ? None by the looks of it... -- Tom Chiverton Advanced ColdFusion Programmer

Here's a brief overview of the new features: http://www.macromedia.com/software/dreamweaver/productinfo/features/ Some developer related things are: - Background file transfer - Coding toolbar including comment/uncomment - Code collapse - Compare files. - Support of PHP5 - Updated reference material for XML, XSLT and XPATH. Presumeably they'll have trial versions and you can see if the new features work for you or not. --- Kevin Graeme Cooperative Extension Technology Services University of Wisconsin-Extension ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Another excuse to give CFEclipse a try. Constanty "Connie" DeCinko III Web Architect, Webmaster, Web Developer Lone Jet Enterprises Glendale, Arizona www.LoneJet.com > >>doesn't really look worth the upgrade cost ... > Are you insane?  $399 for Dreamweaver 8, Yeah, but what new features are their that you need ? None by the looks of it... -- Tom Chiverton Advanced ColdFusion Programmer

> >>doesn't really look worth the upgrade cost ... > > Are you insane? $399 for Dreamweaver 8, Fireworks 8, Flash Professional > 8, Contribute 3, Flashpaper 2? $399 is a STEAL. > I can't see it offering me $399 worth - and I bet it'll be a lot more in the UK (where I am). Macromedia's $/£ exchange rate is appalling. And that's the upgrade cost, not the cost of the suite new. -- mac jordan home: www.kestrel.org <http://www.kestrel.org> work: www.webhorus.net <http://www.webhorus.net> them: www.jordan-cats.org <http://www.jordan-cats.org>

Sure, maybe if all you do is Coldfusion, but I'm surprised you don't like some of the new features of Dreamweaver at least.  Maybe its not for you then.  Me, I use all the products in the studio almost daily and the new features are really fantastic from my point of view. Jason Merrill   |   E-Learning Solutions   |  icfconsulting.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>>And that's the >>upgrade cost, not the cost of the suite new. Right - but you said, "not really worth the UPGRADE cost..." If you think $399 is a lot to pay for a software suite upgrade, you might be in the wrong business.   Jason Merrill   |   E-Learning Solutions   |  icfconsulting.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I think one of the off putting things is that you get better performance and stability from Eclipse (which is slowly eating up the DW market) Sure, maybe if all you do is Coldfusion, but I'm surprised you don't like some of the new features of Dreamweaver at least.  Maybe its not for you then.  Me, I use all the products in the studio almost daily and the new features are really fantastic from my point of view. Jason Merrill   |   E-Learning Solutions   |  icfconsulting.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

A few random, very personal, opinions: - CF developers that aren't already using DW 2004 will hardly change their minds after trying DW 8. - To current DW 2004 users the upgrade to DW 8 has more than a few interesting things to offer. - DW remains unsuited for non-trivial CFML development. The upcoming DW 8 isn't going to change this. ---------------------------- Massimo Foti Tools for ColdFusion and Dreamweaver developers: http://www.massimocorner.com ----------------------------

I'd like to see the data that supports this statement. You know 99.9% of all statistics are made up on the spot. -Adam > I think one of the off putting things is that you get better performance and > stability from Eclipse (which is slowly eating up the DW market)

Performance of what?  The development tool???? I don't see what you're getting at.   Jason Merrill   |   E-Learning Solutions   |  icfconsulting.com [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- performance and ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- and ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Yes the tool- DW is a bloatware tool.  Like some others on this lists, I had/have used it since version 0.9 but I can honestly say that I could count on one hand the amount of times I have opened it in the last month - there really is no need for it  - Eclipse with VSS and CFEclipse plugins serves me better than DW could. Performance of what?  The development tool???? I don't see what you're getting at.   Jason Merrill   |   E-Learning Solutions   |  icfconsulting.com [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- performance and ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- and ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I've never thought the performance of the actual authoring tool was ever much of a problem, I usually am thinking more about the performance of the end product.  Dreamweaver itself has never given me much of a "performance" problem, though maybe what you do with it is very different than what I do with it.  Interesting. Jason Merrill   |   E-Learning Solutions   |  icfconsulting.com [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I >>had/have used it since version 0.9 but I can honestly say that I could count >>on one hand the amount of times I have opened it in the last month - there >>really is no need for it  - Eclipse with VSS and CFEclipse plugins serves me ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- not ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

If you mean that opening it is something very different than what you usually do with it, then yeah maybe so. I don't understand how any of you guys can use DW. I've got another CF developer in the office who uses it and we have this conversation about once a week as he struggles with it hanging up, slowing to a crawl... I'm glad to hear that MM has added even more stuff to DW. I'm sure it's likely now to fight for the title, "biggest software pig" with even more success than previously. -Ferg Merrill, Jason wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Enough is enough. This flame contest is completely pointless, unconstructive and neither side is willing going budge, so give up this up already. If you don't like / use DW, than why even take part in this thread? It obviously doesn't concern you, so what do you care? Kevin If you mean that opening it is something very different than what you usually do with it, then yeah maybe so. I don't understand how any of you guys can use DW. I've got another CF developer in the office who uses it and we have this conversation about once a week as he struggles with it hanging up, slowing to a crawl... I'm glad to hear that MM has added even more stuff to DW. I'm sure it's likely now to fight for the title, "biggest software pig" with even more success than previously. -Ferg Merrill, Jason wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

"If you don't like / use DW, than why even take part in this thread? It obviously doesn't concern you, so what do you care?" Sure it concerns me. I want everyone to use CFE so it has a huge user base and gets max attention, so every time this conversation comes up I'm going to take the opportunity to make a couple comments on why I think it's better or at least point out why I think DW is worse. --Ferg

I wonder if it would be possible to make a DreamWeaver Lite?  Or at least a method that would allow you to run DW in a simple, code editor only mode. Then if you want the designer features, you turn on/enable those options in the program.  Now that would be sweet.  Be able to enable and disable as much as you want/need or that your system can handle. Constanty "Connie" DeCinko III Web Architect, Webmaster, Web Developer Lone Jet Enterprises Glendale, Arizona www.LoneJet.com

That would be pretty cool..     sometimes i wish my G/F came that way  :-) On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:33:46 -0700, Connie DeCinko wrote ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Jason, G/F?  good feeling?  grey flannel?  help me out here... That would be pretty cool..   sometimes i wish my G/F came that way  :-) On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:33:46 -0700, Connie DeCinko wrote ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Girl Friend..   On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:40:01 -0500, Mark A Kruger wrote ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Ah... I see - you want your girfriend to be less bloated... got it. Girl Friend.. On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:40:01 -0500, Mark A Kruger wrote ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

That too...   :-)   i also like the idea of being able to turn on and turn off "features" to what you system can handle..    :-) On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:58:53 -0500, Mark A Kruger wrote ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

They have that... it's called "homesite" and there's a button for "launch dreamweaver"  :) I wonder if it would be possible to make a DreamWeaver Lite?  Or at least a method that would allow you to run DW in a simple, code editor only mode. Then if you want the designer features, you turn on/enable those options in the program.  Now that would be sweet.  Be able to enable and disable as much as you want/need or that your system can handle. Constanty "Connie" DeCinko III Web Architect, Webmaster, Web Developer Lone Jet Enterprises Glendale, Arizona www.LoneJet.com

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I don't understand why anyone cares what IDE "other" developers use? Does it ruin your day knowing some people like DW over HS+ and some like Eclipse over Studio 4.5, etc? Who cares. Use what you like.

It doesn't ruin my day to know that someone drives Toyota, but I don't happen to like them and therefore like to rail on people who do. It doesn't ruin my day to know that some people don't like green beans either, but when someone tells me that they don't, I'm likely to go into the same kind of argument. I'm sure you can think of some subject on which you do the same thing. --Ferg Tangorre, Michael wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

So are you going to rail on me if I tell you I don't like broccoli? It doesn't ruin my day to know that someone drives Toyota, but I don't happen to like them and therefore like to rail on people who do. It doesn't ruin my day to know that some people don't like green beans either, but when someone tells me that they don't, I'm likely to go into the same kind of argument. I'm sure you can think of some subject on which you do the same thing. --Ferg

You DON'T LIKE BROCCOLI??? What in the world is the matter with you??? And to everyone who ever replies with "this is old" or "move to community"... Really, I was just trying to point out that people on this list tend to express their opinions on the topics that come up. Most keyboards come complete with a delete key and most email apps even have a clickable delete feature in case the key is inoperable. Probably the best way to get a thread to end if you're sick of it is to sit in front of your monitor and say, "that dude's an idiot" and then exercise one of those two functions instead of firing off a reply which is likely to elicit another in its turn. --Ferg Connie DeCinko wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I drive a Toyota and ironically eat green beans  - feel free to contact me off-list about the various angles on that. (in other words, I agree this thread is getting pointless and needs to end) Jason Merrill   |   E-Learning Solutions   |  icfconsulting.com ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- into ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- NOTICE: This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged or confidential information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of this e-mail by you is prohibited.

> G/F? Grandfather. :-)

The lack of a descent one in all installer is currently holding back Eclipse. People don't have the time to go through the entire process, of downloading Eclipse, downloading the Web toolkit, downloading the prequisites of that toolkit, downloading CFEclipse, etc. If they managed to put this all into one package, so that you get easily started with an Eclipse installation where you can edit xml,xsl,javascript,(x)html,css,cfml,php without going to that proces. And maybe it is there already, and I just did not searched good enough ;) As far as DW 8 concerned. For me personally the real good feature is code collapse, but I hope they didn't took the CFStudio/Homesite codebase for this functionality, because everybody who used it in those old products, knows that when you collapsed a large amount of code, scrolling the document was a pain in the ass.  So at least I hope that they did look at this "feature". I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM site, but for some reason I hope for more. Like that they - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they occured on specific xml files) - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which project. - step into, just like Eclipse has on folders - enabling selection and printing of the reference inside DW - fixing the lookup of selections on search - split code view, like cfstudio had - breakdown of cfc's in a project If they at least payed attention to the treeview they have a buyer, but I hope they improve the support of the product. I don't understand why there haven't been released more updaters for DWMX 2004. I hope they pay more attention to existing customers :) Micha

Micha, This is an EXCELLENT list of the things that bother me with DW. It is so hard to work with files in DW.  The path thing is a real issue. -mark ----- you wrote -------------------------- - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they occured on specific xml files) - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which project. - step into, just like Eclipse has on folders - enabling selection and printing of the reference inside DW - fixing the lookup of selections on search - split code view, like cfstudio had - breakdown of cfc's in a project

Ah... I see - you want your girlfriend to be less bloated... got it. Sounds like a feature of the old "Whose line is it?" "Things you can say about your IDE, but not your girlfriend." PS.  Probably more of an Community, then a Talk answer.  Something that it would be cool for us users to do.  Easily fork a thread to a different group, with out loosing it's history.  Which just posting the answer to the new group would do. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

ha! Ah... I see - you want your girlfriend to be less bloated... got it. Sounds like a feature of the old "Whose line is it?" "Things you can say about your IDE, but not your girlfriend." PS.  Probably more of an Community, then a Talk answer.  Something that it would be cool for us users to do.  Easily fork a thread to a different group, with out loosing it's history.  Which just posting the answer to the new group would do. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

Well at least my IDE is logical > "Things you can say about your IDE, but not your girlfriend."

1. Disable shopping. 2. Enable libido. That would be pretty cool..     sometimes i wish my G/F came that way  :-)

:-D   Sounds like a good config..  :-D On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:28:43 -0500, Dawson, Michael wrote ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Ick. Ah... I see - you want your girfriend to be less bloated... got it.

Installer? What can simpler than downloading a zip - unzip it, copy it to a folder and click on Eclipse.exe  - no reg keys, not added bloat. The lack of a descent one in all installer is currently holding back Eclipse. People don't have the time to go through the entire process, of downloading Eclipse, downloading the Web toolkit, downloading the prequisites of that toolkit, downloading CFEclipse, etc. If they managed to put this all into one package, so that you get easily started with an Eclipse installation where you can edit xml,xsl,javascript,(x)html,css,cfml,php without going to that proces. And maybe it is there already, and I just did not searched good enough ;) As far as DW 8 concerned. For me personally the real good feature is code collapse, but I hope they didn't took the CFStudio/Homesite codebase for this functionality, because everybody who used it in those old products, knows that when you collapsed a large amount of code, scrolling the document was a pain in the ass.  So at least I hope that they did look at this "feature". I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM site, but for some reason I hope for more. Like that they - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they occured on specific xml files) - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which project. - step into, just like Eclipse has on folders - enabling selection and printing of the reference inside DW - fixing the lookup of selections on search - split code view, like cfstudio had - breakdown of cfc's in a project If they at least payed attention to the treeview they have a buyer, but I hope they improve the support of the product. I don't understand why there haven't been released more updaters for DWMX 2004. I hope they pay more attention to existing customers :) Micha

But does that zip contain a full IDE implementing the list I mentioned? I haven't seen one yet. When someone stands up, and builds an installer encapsulating this all you have a winner, but now it costs too much money. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: dinsdag 9 augustus 2005 9:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Studio 8 announced Installer? What can simpler than downloading a zip - unzip it, copy it to a folder and click on Eclipse.exe  - no reg keys, not added bloat. The lack of a descent one in all installer is currently holding back Eclipse. People don't have the time to go through the entire process, of downloading Eclipse, downloading the Web toolkit, downloading the prequisites of that toolkit, downloading CFEclipse, etc. If they managed to put this all into one package, so that you get easily started with an Eclipse installation where you can edit xml,xsl,javascript,(x)html,css,cfml,php without going to that proces. And maybe it is there already, and I just did not searched good enough ;) As far as DW 8 concerned. For me personally the real good feature is code collapse, but I hope they didn't took the CFStudio/Homesite codebase for this functionality, because everybody who used it in those old products, knows that when you collapsed a large amount of code, scrolling the document was a pain in the ass.  So at least I hope that they did look at this "feature". I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM site, but for some reason I hope for more. Like that they - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they occured on specific xml files) - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which project. - step into, just like Eclipse has on folders - enabling selection and printing of the reference inside DW - fixing the lookup of selections on search - split code view, like cfstudio had - breakdown of cfc's in a project If they at least payed attention to the treeview they have a buyer, but I hope they improve the support of the product. I don't understand why there haven't been released more updaters for DWMX 2004. I hope they pay more attention to existing customers :) Micha

> But does that zip contain a full IDE implementing the list I mentioned? I believe someone made one and posted it over on the CFEclipse mailing list. -- Tom Chiverton Advanced ColdFusion Programmer

Well, why don't you be that someone? But does that zip contain a full IDE implementing the list I mentioned? I haven't seen one yet. When someone stands up, and builds an installer encapsulating this all you have a winner, but now it costs too much money. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: dinsdag 9 augustus 2005 9:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Studio 8 announced Installer? What can simpler than downloading a zip - unzip it, copy it to a folder and click on Eclipse.exe  - no reg keys, not added bloat. The lack of a descent one in all installer is currently holding back Eclipse. People don't have the time to go through the entire process, of downloading Eclipse, downloading the Web toolkit, downloading the prequisites of that toolkit, downloading CFEclipse, etc. If they managed to put this all into one package, so that you get easily started with an Eclipse installation where you can edit xml,xsl,javascript,(x)html,css,cfml,php without going to that proces. And maybe it is there already, and I just did not searched good enough ;) As far as DW 8 concerned. For me personally the real good feature is code collapse, but I hope they didn't took the CFStudio/Homesite codebase for this functionality, because everybody who used it in those old products, knows that when you collapsed a large amount of code, scrolling the document was a pain in the ass.  So at least I hope that they did look at this "feature". I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM site, but for some reason I hope for more. Like that they - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they occured on specific xml files) - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which project. - step into, just like Eclipse has on folders - enabling selection and printing of the reference inside DW - fixing the lookup of selections on search - split code view, like cfstudio had - breakdown of cfc's in a project If they at least payed attention to the treeview they have a buyer, but I hope they improve the support of the product. I don't understand why there haven't been released more updaters for DWMX 2004. I hope they pay more attention to existing customers :) Micha

> Actually I believe the license did allow for two installations of > Studio, as long as both installations were not running > simultaneously, just for your type of situation. Actually there's an added limitation: you can only use the license on Windows machines *or* on a Mac, so if you have a PC at work and a Mac at home you need two licenses! -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include <stdjoke.h>

Well it includes Eclipse - which is the IDE in question.  Sure CFEclipse is an extra download or if you will, the plugin. Still takes a shorter time to get up and running than DW (not that I am belittling DW ;-)) But does that zip contain a full IDE implementing the list I mentioned? I haven't seen one yet. When someone stands up, and builds an installer encapsulating this all you have a winner, but now it costs too much money. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: dinsdag 9 augustus 2005 9:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Studio 8 announced Installer? What can simpler than downloading a zip - unzip it, copy it to a folder and click on Eclipse.exe  - no reg keys, not added bloat. The lack of a descent one in all installer is currently holding back Eclipse. People don't have the time to go through the entire process, of downloading Eclipse, downloading the Web toolkit, downloading the prequisites of that toolkit, downloading CFEclipse, etc. If they managed to put this all into one package, so that you get easily started with an Eclipse installation where you can edit xml,xsl,javascript,(x)html,css,cfml,php without going to that proces. And maybe it is there already, and I just did not searched good enough ;) As far as DW 8 concerned. For me personally the real good feature is code collapse, but I hope they didn't took the CFStudio/Homesite codebase for this functionality, because everybody who used it in those old products, knows that when you collapsed a large amount of code, scrolling the document was a pain in the ass.  So at least I hope that they did look at this "feature". I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM site, but for some reason I hope for more. Like that they - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they occured on specific xml files) - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which project. - step into, just like Eclipse has on folders - enabling selection and printing of the reference inside DW - fixing the lookup of selections on search - split code view, like cfstudio had - breakdown of cfc's in a project If they at least payed attention to the treeview they have a buyer, but I hope they improve the support of the product. I don't understand why there haven't been released more updaters for DWMX 2004. I hope they pay more attention to existing customers :) Micha

> > Actually I believe the license did allow for two installations of ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Exactly the situation I'm in. Seems like $2000 to be crossplatform is nutty. Surely with the proliferation of Macs at MACR this can be remedied? John This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the exclusive use of the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential or privileged information.  If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited.  If you think that you have received this e-mail in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this e-mail immediately. Thank you.  Epilepsy Foundation

would you like it to come with your name etched in gold on the cd and the box customized with your pic and have it hand delivered to your door and only include the features you want in it. And if they did and you had to pay more than a nickle for it you'd still bitch about it. It was funny the other night at our cfug we were talking about how frickin cheap cfm developers are, whining and crying if they gotta spend more than a buck for anything and its so true!!! Most of you are even too cheap to buy one of Wills cfm shirts and show your support, I mean really, It's PATHETIC, people be ashamed of yourselfs because this is what hurts our community. If WIll made PHP or Flash or .crap shirts they'd be all bought up in a heart beat. Lets be real you guys make good money but you act so broke, come on!!!!!!!!! We figured in our our area (denver) that $45 an hour was fairly low for cfm dev'r too make. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I may whine about ms but at least I spent money on it and therefore have a reason but this crap with you guys bitching about stuff and it not being free is really lame...... " but now it costs too much money." So you make multi-million dollar apps but can't spend a couple of bucks on something that helps you make a living??? Or you cant take 5 minutes to download the plugins you want? btw~ doesnt rob have a package download for cfm? Thats pathetic period!!! ~Dave the disruptor~ "A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." But does that zip contain a full IDE implementing the list I mentioned? I haven't seen one yet. When someone stands up, and builds an installer encapsulating this all you have a winner, but now it costs too much money. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: dinsdag 9 augustus 2005 9:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Studio 8 announced Installer? What can simpler than downloading a zip - unzip it, copy it to a folder and click on Eclipse.exe - no reg keys, not added bloat. The lack of a descent one in all installer is currently holding back Eclipse. People don't have the time to go through the entire process, of downloading Eclipse, downloading the Web toolkit, downloading the prequisites of that toolkit, downloading CFEclipse, etc. If they managed to put this all into one package, so that you get easily started with an Eclipse installation where you can edit xml,xsl,javascript,(x)html,css,cfml,php without going to that proces. And maybe it is there already, and I just did not searched good enough ;) As far as DW 8 concerned. For me personally the real good feature is code collapse, but I hope they didn't took the CFStudio/Homesite codebase for this functionality, because everybody who used it in those old products, knows that when you collapsed a large amount of code, scrolling the document was a pain in the ass. So at least I hope that they did look at this "feature". I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM site, but for some reason I hope for more. Like that they - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they occured on specific xml files) - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which project. - step into, just like Eclipse has on folders - enabling selection and printing of the reference inside DW - fixing the lookup of selections on search - split code view, like cfstudio had - breakdown of cfc's in a project If they at least payed attention to the treeview they have a buyer, but I hope they improve the support of the product. I don't understand why there haven't been released more updaters for DWMX 2004. I hope they pay more attention to existing customers :) Micha

Don't pick on cf developers. Eveyone else is the same, why do you think PHP has such a big community. Altho what does suck, is that no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF. Thus why we have millions of free PHP/ASP scripts and like 2 free cf scripts. There is only 1 free cf forum I know of, and ALL cf forums free or not, are crap compared to the PHP/ASP solutions. Russ would you like it to come with your name etched in gold on the cd and the box customized with your pic and have it hand delivered to your door and only include the features you want in it. And if they did and you had to pay more than a nickle for it you'd still bitch about it. It was funny the other night at our cfug we were talking about how frickin cheap cfm developers are, whining and crying if they gotta spend more than a buck for anything and its so true!!! Most of you are even too cheap to buy one of Wills cfm shirts and show your support, I mean really, It's PATHETIC, people be ashamed of yourselfs because this is what hurts our community. If WIll made PHP or Flash or .crap shirts they'd be all bought up in a heart beat. Lets be real you guys make good money but you act so broke, come on!!!!!!!!! We figured in our our area (denver) that $45 an hour was fairly low for cfm dev'r too make. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I may whine about ms but at least I spent money on it and therefore have a reason but this crap with you guys bitching about stuff and it not being free is really lame...... " but now it costs too much money." So you make multi-million dollar apps but can't spend a couple of bucks on something that helps you make a living??? Or you cant take 5 minutes to download the plugins you want? btw~ doesnt rob have a package download for cfm? Thats pathetic period!!! ~Dave the disruptor~ "A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." But does that zip contain a full IDE implementing the list I mentioned? I haven't seen one yet. When someone stands up, and builds an installer encapsulating this all you have a winner, but now it costs too much money. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: dinsdag 9 augustus 2005 9:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Studio 8 announced Installer? What can simpler than downloading a zip - unzip it, copy it to a folder and click on Eclipse.exe - no reg keys, not added bloat. The lack of a descent one in all installer is currently holding back Eclipse. People don't have the time to go through the entire process, of downloading Eclipse, downloading the Web toolkit, downloading the prequisites of that toolkit, downloading CFEclipse, etc. If they managed to put this all into one package, so that you get easily started with an Eclipse installation where you can edit xml,xsl,javascript,(x)html,css,cfml,php without going to that proces. And maybe it is there already, and I just did not searched good enough ;) As far as DW 8 concerned. For me personally the real good feature is code collapse, but I hope they didn't took the CFStudio/Homesite codebase for this functionality, because everybody who used it in those old products, knows that when you collapsed a large amount of code, scrolling the document was a pain in the ass. So at least I hope that they did look at this "feature". I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM site, but for some reason I hope for more. Like that they - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they occured on specific xml files) - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which project. - step into, just like Eclipse has on folders - enabling selection and printing of the reference inside DW - fixing the lookup of selections on search - split code view, like cfstudio had - breakdown of cfc's in a project If they at least payed attention to the treeview they have a buyer, but I hope they improve the support of the product. I don't understand why there haven't been released more updaters for DWMX 2004. I hope they pay more attention to existing customers :) Micha

Russ Michaels wrote: > Eveyone else is the same, why do you think PHP has such a big community. > Altho what does suck, is that no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF. that's nonsense.

I agree. All of the frameworks, everything on cflib.org, much of the MM Exchange, full featured IDEs and a lot of genuinely useful stuff (e.g. ScopeCache, various blog apps, the FarCry CMS) are all free and have all had a lot of work put into them. I've looked at and used some the of the PHP freebies around, and they are of widely varying quality - for example, PHPNuke is a dog's breakfast and I wouldn't use it on one of my sites. > Russ Michaels wrote: > > Eveyone else is the same, why do you think PHP has such a big community. > > Altho what does suck, is that no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF. > > that's nonsense.

www.resourceindex.com And all the other free script sites. If this is nonsense, please show me all the thousands of CF scripts to match the thousands of perl/ASP/PHP scripts. Especially considering most of them don't even list coldfusion. Russ Russ Michaels wrote: > Eveyone else is the same, why do you think PHP has such a big community. > Altho what does suck, is that no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF. that's nonsense.

Russ Michaels wrote: > www.resourceindex.com > > And all the other free script sites. > > If this is nonsense, please show me all the thousands of CF scripts to match yup that's nonsense. to remind, you stated that "no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF". 100% nonsense--i know because i'm giving away dozens of tags & CFCs, and that's just a drop in the bucket compared to what's out there. just look at the flash form goodness that the asfusion folks dish out like ice cream cones on a hot day. yeah, nonsense. now let's see...on that site there were zero i18n related scripts, zero locale related scripts, zero i18n calendars, zero locale based collations, one lame timezone related script, zero resource bundle scripts (or anything like it but i might not be using the proper PHP-speak), and so on. considering that i18n functionality is the weakest/lamest part of php this is kind of shocking. so to my mind, yes, what you're arguing is nonsense.

Paul Hastings wrote: > > zero resource bundle > scripts (or anything like it but i might not be using the proper > PHP-speak) GNU gettext support is build into and distributed with PHP. What more scripts would you need? Jochem

Jochem van Dieten wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- dunno, does it work like resource bundles? i think you told me once gettext came first but does have the same functionality now (not that there's much to rb classes)? and if it does +1 for PHP i18n, the rest of what i said still stands.

Paul Hastings wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Pretty much. But it is still PHP style: if a translation of a resource does not exist it will display the default. You can not configure it to throw an error. (Which is my biggest gripe with PHP: it will never throw an error when variables don't exist, it will just do something unexpected that breaks your app in a non-obvious way.) Jochem

Jochem van Dieten wrote: > Pretty much. But it is still PHP style: if a translation of a > resource does not exist it will display the default. You can not > configure it to throw an error. (Which is my biggest gripe with > PHP: it will never throw an error when variables don't exist, it > will just do something unexpected that breaks your app in a > non-obvious way.) don't think i knew that (though i suspect you've told me this all once before, sorry my memory is getting worse & worse). PHP is missing so much else that i keep expecting the worse, my bad. thanks for the correction. java style rb's do something similar, they'll keep falling back (by chopping the locale string, th_TH_TH-->th_TH-->th) until they find the right locale or return the base one if not. the classpath one will anyway, the list/property ones will throw an error if they don't find that specific rb file.

Ok whatever, I can see your one of those people that just has to be right no matter what. So I shan't waste my breath continuing this discussion any longer. So probably best to leave you alone in your little bubble. For the rest of us, google provides the truth. Russ Russ Michaels wrote: > www.resourceindex.com > > And all the other free script sites. > > If this is nonsense, please show me all the thousands of CF scripts to > match yup that's nonsense. to remind, you stated that "no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF". 100% nonsense--i know because i'm giving away dozens of tags & CFCs, and that's just a drop in the bucket compared to what's out there. just look at the flash form goodness that the asfusion folks dish out like ice cream cones on a hot day. yeah, nonsense. now let's see...on that site there were zero i18n related scripts, zero locale related scripts, zero i18n calendars, zero locale based collations, one lame timezone related script, zero resource bundle scripts (or anything like it but i might not be using the proper PHP-speak), and so on. considering that i18n functionality is the weakest/lamest part of php this is kind of shocking. so to my mind, yes, what you're arguing is nonsense.

Russ Michaels wrote: > Ok whatever, I can see your one of those people that just has to be right no > matter what. So I shan't waste my breath continuing this discussion any no, nothing about me. you said something i thought was nonsensical ("there shall be no nonsense in public places unless it involves lots of beer"), i called you on it. nothing more, nothing less. now watch me eat crow over jochem's superior i18n knowledge.

You are right, there arent as many resources out there for code samples and scripts for ColdFusion. The reason? Because most of those scripts are already a part of ColdFusion. (list functions, array functions, etc.) -Adam ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Between Macromedia live docs, HOF lists and a few other sites I think CF is fairly well covered. While it is sometimes helpful do you really need millions of free and mostly useless scripts, whether it be php,asp,js, or whatever. Michael B. > Don't pick on cf developers. > Eveyone else is the same, why do you think PHP has such a big community. > Altho what does suck, is that no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF. > Thus why we have millions of free PHP/ASP scripts and like 2 free cf > scripts. > There is only 1 free cf forum I know of, and ALL cf forums free or not, are > crap compared to the PHP/ASP solutions. > > Russ > > would you like it to come with your name etched in gold on the cd and the > box customized with your pic and have it hand delivered to your door and > only include the features you want in it. And if they did and you had to pay > more than a nickle for it you'd still bitch about it. > >  It was funny the other night at our cfug we were talking about how frickin > cheap cfm developers are, whining and crying if they gotta spend more than a > buck for anything and its so true!!! Most of you are even too cheap to buy > one of Wills cfm shirts and show your support, I mean really, It's PATHETIC, > people be ashamed of yourselfs because this is what hurts our community. If > WIll made PHP or Flash or .crap shirts they'd be all bought up in a heart > beat. Lets be real you guys make good money but you act so broke, come > on!!!!!!!!! We figured in our our area (denver) that $45 an hour was fairly > low for cfm dev'r too make. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr > >  I may whine about ms but at least I spent money on it and therefore have a > reason but this crap with you guys bitching about stuff and it not being > free is really lame...... > >  " but now it costs too much money." >  So you make multi-million dollar apps but can't spend a couple of bucks on ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- a ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- document > was a pain in the ass. So at least I hope that they did look at this > "feature". > > I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM site, but > for some reason I hope for more. Like that they > - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX > - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they > occured on specific xml files) > - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I > might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Well I can safely say that almost everything I have ever gone looking for doesn't exist in CF, but is a plenty in PHP/ASP. I went looking for Affiliate scripts  for example. There are tons of good ones for everything except CF, for which I found 1, and it was not free. I can say the same for things like forums, portals, community apps. This really isn't anything that needs proving, it is right there for anyone to see. Feel free to go search for any of those things I mentioned and see what you  come up with for CF. CF has some free tags and UDF's sure, but not much in the way of full apps, and  the majority of the semi-decent stuff is not free anwyay. Russ Between Macromedia live docs, HOF lists and a few other sites I think CF is fairly well covered. While it is sometimes helpful do you really need millions of free and mostly useless scripts, whether it be php,asp,js, or whatever. Michael B. > Don't pick on cf developers. > Eveyone else is the same, why do you think PHP has such a big community. > Altho what does suck, is that no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF. > Thus why we have millions of free PHP/ASP scripts and like 2 free cf > scripts. > There is only 1 free cf forum I know of, and ALL cf forums free or not, are > crap compared to the PHP/ASP solutions. > > Russ > > would you like it to come with your name etched in gold on the cd and the > box customized with your pic and have it hand delivered to your door and > only include the features you want in it. And if they did and you had to pay > more than a nickle for it you'd still bitch about it. > >  It was funny the other night at our cfug we were talking about how frickin > cheap cfm developers are, whining and crying if they gotta spend more than a > buck for anything and its so true!!! Most of you are even too cheap to buy > one of Wills cfm shirts and show your support, I mean really, It's PATHETIC, > people be ashamed of yourselfs because this is what hurts our community. If > WIll made PHP or Flash or .crap shirts they'd be all bought up in a heart > beat. Lets be real you guys make good money but you act so broke, come > on!!!!!!!!! We figured in our our area (denver) that $45 an hour was fairly > low for cfm dev'r too make. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr > >  I may whine about ms but at least I spent money on it and therefore have a > reason but this crap with you guys bitching about stuff and it not being > free is really lame...... > >  " but now it costs too much money." >  So you make multi-million dollar apps but can't spend a couple of bucks on ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- a ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- document > was a pain in the ass. So at least I hope that they did look at this > "feature". > > I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM site, but > for some reason I hope for more. Like that they > - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX > - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they > occured on specific xml files) > - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I > might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

All the proliferation of free scripts in PHP does is contribute to it's reputation as being "cheap" and drive down the price that developers can ask.  Don't you konw how many CF developers own their own businesses and no longer live with their mothers :) -mk Well I can safely say that almost everything I have ever gone looking for doesn't exist in CF, but is a plenty in PHP/ASP. I went looking for Affiliate scripts  for example. There are tons of good ones for everything except CF, for which I found 1, and it was not free. I can say the same for things like forums, portals, community apps. This really isn't anything that needs proving, it is right there for anyone to see. Feel free to go search for any of those things I mentioned and see what you  come up with for CF. CF has some free tags and UDF's sure, but not much in the way of full apps, and  the majority of the semi-decent stuff is not free anwyay. Russ Between Macromedia live docs, HOF lists and a few other sites I think CF is fairly well covered. While it is sometimes helpful do you really need millions of free and mostly useless scripts, whether it be php,asp,js, or whatever. Michael B. > Don't pick on cf developers. > Eveyone else is the same, why do you think PHP has such a big community. > Altho what does suck, is that no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF. > Thus why we have millions of free PHP/ASP scripts and like 2 free cf > scripts. > There is only 1 free cf forum I know of, and ALL cf forums free or not, are > crap compared to the PHP/ASP solutions. > > Russ > > would you like it to come with your name etched in gold on the cd and the > box customized with your pic and have it hand delivered to your door and > only include the features you want in it. And if they did and you had to pay > more than a nickle for it you'd still bitch about it. > >  It was funny the other night at our cfug we were talking about how frickin > cheap cfm developers are, whining and crying if they gotta spend more than a > buck for anything and its so true!!! Most of you are even too cheap to buy > one of Wills cfm shirts and show your support, I mean really, It's PATHETIC, > people be ashamed of yourselfs because this is what hurts our community. If > WIll made PHP or Flash or .crap shirts they'd be all bought up in a heart > beat. Lets be real you guys make good money but you act so broke, come > on!!!!!!!!! We figured in our our area (denver) that $45 an hour was fairly > low for cfm dev'r too make. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr > >  I may whine about ms but at least I spent money on it and therefore have a > reason but this crap with you guys bitching about stuff and it not being > free is really lame...... > >  " but now it costs too much money." >  So you make multi-million dollar apps but can't spend a couple of bucks on ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- a ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- document > was a pain in the ass. So at least I hope that they did look at this > "feature". > > I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM site, but > for some reason I hope for more. Like that they > - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX > - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they > occured on specific xml files) > - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so that I > might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

No, it only contributes to the fact that in the paid programmer world PHP is generally thought of as a language of 40-year-olds who live in thier parents basement. -Adam ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Now there's a more reasonable answer. Good one Mark. All the proliferation of free scripts in PHP does is contribute to it's reputation as being "cheap" and drive down the price that developers can ask.  Don't you konw how many CF developers own their own businesses and no longer live with their mothers :) -mk Well I can safely say that almost everything I have ever gone looking for doesn't exist in CF, but is a plenty in PHP/ASP. I went looking for Affiliate scripts  for example. There are tons of good ones for everything except CF, for which I found 1, and it was not free. I can say the same for things like forums, portals, community apps. This really isn't anything that needs proving, it is right there for anyone to see. Feel free to go search for any of those things I mentioned and see what you  come up with for CF. CF has some free tags and UDF's sure, but not much in the way of full apps, and  the majority of the semi-decent stuff is not free anwyay. Russ Between Macromedia live docs, HOF lists and a few other sites I think CF is fairly well covered. While it is sometimes helpful do you really need millions of free and mostly useless scripts, whether it be php,asp,js, or whatever. Michael B. > Don't pick on cf developers. > Eveyone else is the same, why do you think PHP has such a big community. > Altho what does suck, is that no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF. > Thus why we have millions of free PHP/ASP scripts and like 2 free cf > scripts. > There is only 1 free cf forum I know of, and ALL cf forums free or > not, are ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- pay > more than a nickle for it you'd still bitch about it. > >  It was funny the other night at our cfug we were talking about how frickin > cheap cfm developers are, whining and crying if they gotta spend more > than a > buck for anything and its so true!!! Most of you are even too cheap to > buy one of Wills cfm shirts and show your support, I mean really, It's PATHETIC, > people be ashamed of yourselfs because this is what hurts our community. If > WIll made PHP or Flash or .crap shirts they'd be all bought up in a > heart beat. Lets be real you guys make good money but you act so > broke, come on!!!!!!!!! We figured in our our area (denver) that $45 > an hour was fairly > low for cfm dev'r too make. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr > >  I may whine about ms but at least I spent money on it and therefore > have a > reason but this crap with you guys bitching about stuff and it not > being free is really lame...... > >  " but now it costs too much money." >  So you make multi-million dollar apps but can't spend a couple of > bucks on ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- much money. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- a ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- document > was a pain in the ass. So at least I hope that they did look at this > "feature". > > I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM > site, but > for some reason I hope for more. Like that they > - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX > - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they > occured on specific xml files) > - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so > that I > might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I bet most of those free PHP scripts you could have written yourself in the amount of time it takes to search for them. Between Macromedia live docs, HOF lists and a few other sites I think CF is fairly well covered. While it is sometimes helpful do you really need millions of free and mostly useless scripts, whether it be php,asp,js, or whatever. Michael B.

Lol. This is funny because its true. However, I'm not buying any of those CF shirts. And yes, good taste has robbed me of many things. In all honesty though, CF as a server is cheap. MS gives away .NET only because they can afford to bundle it with the OS. A 12k price tag on Flex is still cheap when compared to purchasing websphere or just a single oracle database. -Adam ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Ok, I'll show support, but only if a cute blonde wearing only one of the shirts delivers my gold plated box and engraved CD. And she better bring snacks! would you like it to come with your name etched in gold on the cd and the box customized with your pic and have it hand delivered to your door and only include the features you want in it. And if they did and you had to pay more than a nickle for it you'd still bitch about it.

Welcome to the world where money has to be made and time is short. The funny thing is that we actually just simply mentioned a future point for improvement on Eclipse <blink>acceptance</blink> for web development related tasks in comparison with Dreamweaver and you here you are ranting all again about nothing and completely out of the blue. Do you need vacation? Micha Schopman Project Manager Blablabla M$ blabla T-shirt blabla .. cheap ...

i just wasted an hour typing your responce micha and it timed out so screw it. I was refering to you comments about "why doesnt someone else make it, complile it and distribute it" and it shouldnt cost me anything garbage you wrote. If someone puts their time into making a tool that is of use to u then you shouldnt expect it to be free. After all you arent making your web apps for free are you? And the whole point to this "rant" is that if the cheap asses would actually support our products then we'd have more pull to get the features we want. Why do you stay on here even? As far as I know you dont like nor support coldfusion???? ~Dave the disruptor~ "A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." Welcome to the world where money has to be made and time is short. The funny thing is that we actually just simply mentioned a future point for improvement on Eclipse acceptance for web development related tasks in comparison with Dreamweaver and you here you are ranting all again about nothing and completely out of the blue. Do you need vacation? Micha Schopman Project Manager Blablabla M$ blabla T-shirt blabla .. cheap ...

Nobody said it should be free, nobody said it must be done by someone else, the only thing said was "if there would be such a package available that would be nice and it would push acceptance for Eclipse". When people comment on lack of product features, nice to have features or missing functionality which they would like to see that does not mean they dislike or even hate the product. Read carefully, because you are creating statements and opinions nobody expressed just because you think people are like that. Read, instead of assume. If you disagree with specific points, discuss with arguments, and not with bluntly trolls. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- i just wasted an hour typing your responce micha and it timed out so screw it. I was refering to you comments about "why doesnt someone else make it, complile it and distribute it" and it shouldnt cost me anything garbage you wrote. If someone puts their time into making a tool that is of use to u then you shouldnt expect it to be free. After all you arent making your web apps for free are you? And the whole point to this "rant" is that if the cheap asses would actually support our products then we'd have more pull to get the features we want. Why do you stay on here even? As far as I know you dont like nor support coldfusion???? ~Dave the disruptor~ "A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." Welcome to the world where money has to be made and time is short. The funny thing is that we actually just simply mentioned a future point for improvement on Eclipse acceptance for web development related tasks in comparison with Dreamweaver and you here you are ranting all again about nothing and completely out of the blue. Do you need vacation? Micha Schopman Project Manager Blablabla M$ blabla T-shirt blabla .. cheap ...

Those are also part of PHP, even in the first versions of PHP they were natively supported in a large amount of variations capable of handling almost anything you want. It just is so simple but people don't like to admit it. PHP just has a larger community and that is all. The PHP basics to get you up and running are just like ColdFusion very easy. It is easy to make something, and as with all languages, when the learning curve is low, you will see more amateur code around. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- You are right, there arent as many resources out there for code samples and scripts for ColdFusion. The reason? Because most of those scripts are already a part of ColdFusion. (list functions, array functions, etc.) -Adam > www.resourceindex.com > > And all the other free script sites. > > If this is nonsense, please show me all the thousands of CF scripts to match > the thousands of perl/ASP/PHP scripts. Especially considering most of them ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- community. > > Altho what does suck, is that no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF. > > that's nonsense. > > > >

More people watch network tevelvision than HBO.Not because network TV is better, just because its free. However I guess thats not a good comparison because "Its not tv.... its HBO!" -Adam ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I don't understand why so many people go looking for free scripts and stuff in CF. If CF is touted as a rapid development language, doesn't that mean you should be able to write it yourself? I hear comments all the time that come across as people being lazy or people being cheap, but you never know people's situations. The whole point of the community is to bring people together who are different. Everyone just deal with it and quit complaining. As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting something and giving it a try. That's the beauty of the community is that everyone can do what they want, when they want. Yeah, support eachother when you feel the need, but if you don't want to, that's fine too.  It's just like a living community...not everyone is involved in the same ways and not everyone wants to spend all their time in the community. It's nice to see eachother and help eachother every once in a while, but most of the time, I prefer to venture abroad.  Anyway, this whole argument is kinda silly so I'll let everyone get back to work. John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer Well I can safely say that almost everything I have ever gone looking for doesn't exist in CF, but is a plenty in PHP/ASP. I went looking for Affiliate scripts  for example. There are tons of good ones for everything except CF, for which I found 1, and it was not free. I can say the same for things like forums, portals, community apps. This really isn't anything that needs proving, it is right there for anyone to see. Feel free to go search for any of those things I mentioned and see what you  come up with for CF. CF has some free tags and UDF's sure, but not much in the way of full apps, and  the majority of the semi-decent stuff is not free anwyay. Russ Between Macromedia live docs, HOF lists and a few other sites I think CF is fairly well covered. While it is sometimes helpful do you really need millions of free and mostly useless scripts, whether it be php,asp,js, or whatever. Michael B. > Don't pick on cf developers. > Eveyone else is the same, why do you think PHP has such a big community. > Altho what does suck, is that no-one gives anything away for FREE in CF. > Thus why we have millions of free PHP/ASP scripts and like 2 free cf > scripts. > There is only 1 free cf forum I know of, and ALL cf forums free or > not, are ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- pay > more than a nickle for it you'd still bitch about it. > >  It was funny the other night at our cfug we were talking about how frickin > cheap cfm developers are, whining and crying if they gotta spend more > than a > buck for anything and its so true!!! Most of you are even too cheap to > buy one of Wills cfm shirts and show your support, I mean really, It's PATHETIC, > people be ashamed of yourselfs because this is what hurts our community. If > WIll made PHP or Flash or .crap shirts they'd be all bought up in a > heart beat. Lets be real you guys make good money but you act so > broke, come on!!!!!!!!! We figured in our our area (denver) that $45 > an hour was fairly > low for cfm dev'r too make. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr > >  I may whine about ms but at least I spent money on it and therefore > have a > reason but this crap with you guys bitching about stuff and it not > being free is really lame...... > >  " but now it costs too much money." >  So you make multi-million dollar apps but can't spend a couple of > bucks on ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- mentioned? > I haven't seen one yet. When someone stands up, and builds an > installer encapsulating this all you have a winner, but now it costs too much money. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- a ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- document > was a pain in the ass. So at least I hope that they did look at this > "feature". > > I like the enhanced compliance tests showed in the demo on the MM > site, but > for some reason I hope for more. Like that they > - fixed the numerous issues involved with the treeview in DWMX > - crashes when searching through folders with find & replace (and they > occured on specific xml files) > - showing the directory path of a occurence within search results so > that I > might now which one of the 1001 index.cfm's in the results belongs to which ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Why do people seem to feel the need to tell other people to "quit complaining"? I just don't understand this. If you feel you have something about which to complain, then by all means, please do. Your complaints about subject "x" may be the catalyst someone needs to start a new project or escalate your issues to someone who might be able to address them. If you're one of these knuckleheads who constantly feel the need to tell others to grin and bear it, you might want to consider taking your own advice and passing right by the thread containing the "complaints". --Ferg Burns, John D wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

simple. You have a client, they say they want a forum and point you at PHPBB as an example stating that it is FREE (don't reply saying PHPBB is not FREE, it's just an example, I forget if this is the free one). So what can oyu offer them. Only 1 free cf forum that I know of, and it looks pretty kack.  Offer them the pricy and also kack Fusetalk, or charge them several grand to write one for them. Of cours ethey are gonna say, us ethe PHP forum then. Lots of cleint sonly have a small budget and cannot afford to pay for everything to be custom written, we have to cater for these type sof customers. And usually the only way to do so is to resort to using readily available apps/scripts in other lanaguages. The various comments that have been made here about may be true, but the cleint really isn't going to give a hoot about such things are they. Russ I don't understand why so many people go looking for free scripts and stuff in CF. If CF is touted as a rapid development language, doesn't that mean you should be able to write it yourself? I hear comments all the time that come across as people being lazy or people being cheap, but you never know people's situations. The whole point of the community is to bring people together who are different. Everyone just deal with it and quit complaining. As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting something and giving it a try. That's the beauty of the community is that everyone can do what they want, when they want. Yeah, support eachother when you feel the need, but if you don't want to, that's fine too.  It's just like a living community...not everyone is involved in the same ways and not everyone wants to spend all their time in the community. It's nice to see eachother and help eachother every once in a while, but most of the time, I prefer to venture abroad.  Anyway, this whole argument is kinda silly so I'll let everyone get back to work. John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer

ewww, clients with small budgets.... the php guys are welcome to them! simple. You have a client, they say they want a forum and point you at PHPBB as an example stating that it is FREE (don't reply saying PHPBB is not FREE, it's just an example, I forget if this is the free one). So what can oyu offer them. Only 1 free cf forum that I know of, and it looks pretty kack.  Offer them the pricy and also kack Fusetalk, or charge them several grand to write one for them. Of cours ethey are gonna say, us ethe PHP forum then. Lots of cleint sonly have a small budget and cannot afford to pay for everything to be custom written, we have to cater for these type sof customers. And usually the only way to do so is to resort to using readily available apps/scripts in other lanaguages. The various comments that have been made here about may be true, but the cleint really isn't going to give a hoot about such things are they. Russ I don't understand why so many people go looking for free scripts and stuff in CF. If CF is touted as a rapid development language, doesn't that mean you should be able to write it yourself? I hear comments all the time that come across as people being lazy or people being cheap, but you never know people's situations. The whole point of the community is to bring people together who are different. Everyone just deal with it and quit complaining. As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting something and giving it a try. That's the beauty of the community is that everyone can do what they want, when they want. Yeah, support eachother when you feel the need, but if you don't want to, that's fine too.  It's just like a living community...not everyone is involved in the same ways and not everyone wants to spend all their time in the community. It's nice to see eachother and help eachother every once in a while, but most of the time, I prefer to venture abroad.  Anyway, this whole argument is kinda silly so I'll let everyone get back to work. John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer

I don't understand why so many people go looking for free scripts and stuff in CF. If CF is touted as a rapid development language, doesn't that mean you should be able to write it yourself? I hear comments all the time that come across as people being lazy or people being cheap, but you never know people's situations. The whole point of the community is to bring people together who are different. Everyone just deal with it and quit complaining. As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting something and giving it a try. That's the beauty of the community is that everyone can do what they want, when they want. Yeah, support eachother when you feel the need, but if you don't want to, that's fine too.  It's just like a living community...not everyone is involved in the same ways and not everyone wants to spend all their time in the community. It's nice to see eachother and help eachother every once in a while, but most of the time, I prefer to venture abroad.  Anyway, this whole argument is kinda silly so I'll let everyone get back to work. John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer

>As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that >have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that >were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion >gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting >something and giving it a try. Jeeez! Well thanks ... I guess. *I* think they're pretty killer lookin', and most of the comments I've received have been very positive. Just depends on everyones' tastes I guess. I'm workin' on some new designs too. :) Thanks, Will

Don't be too upset, John wont wear anything unless it has a horse, racing stripes or calvin peeing on a non-ford logo. :) -Adam ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>Don't be too upset, John wont wear anything unless it has a horse, >racing stripes or calvin peeing on a non-ford logo. :) Ok! I'm gettin' some ideas here. A NASCAR with COLDFUSION plastered all over it!   :) Will

> >As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Will: It's nothing to take offense at.  Not everything is going to appeal to everyone.  I say this because...well, I don't particularly care for the shirts either.  I'm glad that most of the comments you've received have been positive, and I'm glad there are people who like 'em and are buying 'em.  I've never voiced an opinion ('til now) because I never saw a reason to say something that might seem considered derogatory (and again, it's not...it's just a matter of preference). So why say something now?  Because Dave, in all of his infinite wisdom and grammatical errors felt it necessary to suggest that we must not be buying Will's shirts because we're "cheap".  Well, sorry Dave, but I don't see where you have the right to suggest that of anybody.  You don't know how much any of us make, nor do you know our financial situations.  Yeah, I do ok...no, I don't make $45/hr.  But even though I do OK, I do have a wife and 2 kids and I've been selfish enough to spend my money on stuff like...oh, sending my daughter to camp, or preschool, or taking them different places on the weekends since we don't get to spend as much time together during the week as we'd like to.  There's mortgage, car payments, and all of those fun things.  But God forbid I don't show my support for the community by not buying a shirt.  For you to even suggest that we're all "cheap" and "pathetic" is appreciated by the community as a whole, I'm sure. -- Charlie Griefer ================================================ "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."

Me, I'm just too damn cheap. I mean I'm too cheap to buy a shirt or an app that I can find for free. I have no problem with that either. I'm a tough consumer. If you want my money, it's going to be for something I really want to pay to have. Even if you doubled my salary today, I'd still be the same way. It doesn't matter how much money I have; it's mine and I'm going to keep as much as I can. What would anyone really say is the problem with that? --Ferg     Charlie Griefer wrote:     Will: It's nothing to take offense at. Not everything is going to     appeal to everyone. I say this because...well, I don't particularly     care for the shirts either. I'm glad that most of the comments     you've received have been positive, and I'm glad there are people     who like 'em and are buying 'em. I've never voiced an opinion ('til     now) because I never saw a reason to say something that might seem     considered derogatory (and again, it's not...it's just a matter of     preference). So why say something now? Because Dave, in all of his     infinite wisdom and grammatical errors felt it necessary to suggest     that we must not be buying Will's shirts because we're "cheap".     Well, sorry Dave, but I don't see where you have the right to     suggest that of anybody. You don't know how much any of us make, nor     do you know our financial situations. Yeah, I do ok...no, I don't     make $45/hr. But even though I do OK, I do have a wife and 2 kids     and I've been selfish enough to spend my money on stuff like...oh,     sending my daughter to camp, or preschool, or taking them different     places on the weekends since we don't get to spend as much time     together during the week as we'd like to. There's mortgage, car     payments, and all of those fun things. But God forbid I don't show     my support for the community by not buying a shirt. For you to even     suggest that we're all "cheap" and "pathetic" is appreciated by the     community as a whole, I'm sure.     -- -- Charlie Griefer

> Jeeez! Well thanks ... I guess. *I* think they're pretty killer > lookin', and most of the comments I've received have been very > positive. Just depends on everyones' tastes I guess. I'm workin' on > some new designs too. :) Will, FWIW I picked up one of your t-shirts at CFUnited. By the last day I saw several people walking around with them. larry

I'd prefer buying an OFFICIAL Macromedia ColdFusion shirt, with the official logo.  Sorry, but they look like cheap knockoffs. >As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that >have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that >were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion >gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting >something and giving it a try. Jeeez! Well thanks ... I guess. *I* think they're pretty killer lookin', and most of the comments I've received have been very positive. Just depends on everyones' tastes I guess. I'm workin' on some new designs too. :) Thanks, Will

I do some nice Captain Coldfusion shirts :-) Russ I'd prefer buying an OFFICIAL Macromedia ColdFusion shirt, with the official logo.  Sorry, but they look like cheap knockoffs. >As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that >have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that >were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion >gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting >something and giving it a try. Jeeez! Well thanks ... I guess. *I* think they're pretty killer lookin', and most of the comments I've received have been very positive. Just depends on everyones' tastes I guess. I'm workin' on some new designs too. :) Thanks, Will

>Sorry, but they look like cheap knockoffs. Well now that's just plain wrong. I've had so many compliments on the quality of these shirts that one or two nasty little comments like that bounce right off them. If anything is cheap it's the fact that someone would call something cheap when they haven't even looked at it in person. The quality of the shirts and the designs stands on its own! Maybe I need to design some pink ones? Or more feminine designs before you'll be happy? Or better yet, I'll come out with CF purses. Will

Excuse me, but why don't you get your facts straight before you open your big fat mouth.  I am a man, not a woman.  And second, others have said they look like a developer, not a designer designed them.  They lack style and look like they were done with basic Windows fonts.  My son could have done better with his crayons. >Sorry, but they look like cheap knockoffs. Well now that's just plain wrong. I've had so many compliments on the quality of these shirts that one or two nasty little comments like that bounce right off them. If anything is cheap it's the fact that someone would call something cheap when they haven't even looked at it in person. The quality of the shirts and the designs stands on its own! Maybe I need to design some pink ones? Or more feminine designs before you'll be happy? Or better yet, I'll come out with CF purses. Will

Good thing the weekend's here.  I think we can all use it :) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Not to mention, just like it is with PHP, in general the quality is very low and too limited for the more demanding tasks. I think, the only time I actually bought something it was a Rijndael encryption algorithm because CF did not supported strong encryption algorithms at that time. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- I don't understand why so many people go looking for free scripts and stuff in CF. If CF is touted as a rapid development language, doesn't that mean you should be able to write it yourself? I hear comments all the time that come across as people being lazy or people being cheap, but you never know people's situations. The whole point of the community is to bring people together who are different. Everyone just deal with it and quit complaining.

Yep, not slammin' you Will. Many people may like them, I just don't think they're all that great. I definitely think they're better than what they could be, but they seem to me like a developer made them as opposed to a designer. I guess most people in the community are developers and will like them, but I have a side business with a graphic designer who does some cool shirt designs so it may be an unfair comparison.  Just my personal opinion. Keep up the effort though. It's definitely a good market. John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer >As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that >have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that >were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion >gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting >something and giving it a try. Jeeez! Well thanks ... I guess. *I* think they're pretty killer lookin', and most of the comments I've received have been very positive. Just depends on everyones' tastes I guess. I'm workin' on some new designs too. :) Thanks, Will

Sell baseball caps with a B. Forta fake beard attached to it. That is definitely a best seller. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- >As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that >have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that >were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion >gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting >something and giving it a try. Jeeez! Well thanks ... I guess. *I* think they're pretty killer lookin', and most of the comments I've received have been very positive. Just depends on everyones' tastes I guess. I'm workin' on some new designs too. :) Thanks, Will

Haha :-) I hardly wore any Mustang stuff to work at Hopkins.  Now, the decorations on my desk and wall are a different story, but what can I say?  That brings up a good point. Will- if you make a CF shirt that incorporates a 1967 Convertible Mustang or the Mustang logo I'll buy one :-) John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer Don't be too upset, John wont wear anything unless it has a horse, racing stripes or calvin peeing on a non-ford logo. :) -Adam ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>Haha :-) I hardly wore any Mustang stuff to work at Hopkins.  Now, the >decorations on my desk and wall are a different story, but what can I >say?  That brings up a good point. Will- if you make a CF shirt that >incorporates a 1967 Convertible Mustang or the Mustang logo I'll buy one >:-) Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...

Ferg- Good point. I guess my telling people to quit complaining was my version of complaining :-)  I just get tired of hearing people spend all their time worrying about the CF community or what we don't have rather than just doing their job and working on making things the way they want. John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer Why do people seem to feel the need to tell other people to "quit complaining"? I just don't understand this. If you feel you have something about which to complain, then by all means, please do. Your complaints about subject "x" may be the catalyst someone needs to start a new project or escalate your issues to someone who might be able to address them. If you're one of these knuckleheads who constantly feel the need to tell others to grin and bear it, you might want to consider taking your own advice and passing right by the thread containing the "complaints". --Ferg

That would be great! :-) John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer Sell baseball caps with a B. Forta fake beard attached to it. That is definitely a best seller. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- >As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that >have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that >were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion >gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting >something and giving it a try. Jeeez! Well thanks ... I guess. *I* think they're pretty killer lookin', and most of the comments I've received have been very positive. Just depends on everyones' tastes I guess. I'm workin' on some new designs too. :) Thanks, Will

I'll be the ass today and say that this is definitely cf-community now.

Charlie, Amen! While I don't spend most of my money on noble things like children since I don't have them yet, I do have a wife (and yes she takes a lot of my money) and I have hobbies, interests and give money to charity. I don't make $45/hour either, though I wish I did. If I made that much, perhaps I would throw $20 towards Will whether I liked the shirts or not.  Maybe I should start taking donations and then people like Dave will feel inclined to throw some of that $45/hour my way. John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Will: It's nothing to take offense at.  Not everything is going to appeal to everyone.  I say this because...well, I don't particularly care for the shirts either.  I'm glad that most of the comments you've received have been positive, and I'm glad there are people who like 'em and are buying 'em.  I've never voiced an opinion ('til now) because I never saw a reason to say something that might seem considered derogatory (and again, it's not...it's just a matter of preference). So why say something now?  Because Dave, in all of his infinite wisdom and grammatical errors felt it necessary to suggest that we must not be buying Will's shirts because we're "cheap".  Well, sorry Dave, but I don't see where you have the right to suggest that of anybody.  You don't know how much any of us make, nor do you know our financial situations.  Yeah, I do ok...no, I don't make $45/hr.  But even though I do OK, I do have a wife and 2 kids and I've been selfish enough to spend my money on stuff like...oh, sending my daughter to camp, or preschool, or taking them different places on the weekends since we don't get to spend as much time together during the week as we'd like to.  There's mortgage, car payments, and all of those fun things.  But God forbid I don't show my support for the community by not buying a shirt.  For you to even suggest that we're all "cheap" and "pathetic" is appreciated by the community as a whole, I'm sure. -- Charlie Griefer ================================================ "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."

Michael- Yeah, I'd have to agree. I was just thinking that as I posted my last reply. I have CF-Community though (please no one blast me for this)  I just wish there was a forum for general Cf-talk questions as well as a little bit of off topic every once in a while. I don't particularly care to discuss politics or anything like that which is most of what I've seen on CF-Community. I just with the CF-Community talk stayed on the topic of the Cold Fusion community and wasn't just a random chat session. I'm not blasting those who talk on there, I just wish there was something in between Cf-talk and cf-community. John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer I'll be the ass today and say that this is definitely cf-community now.

Hey Mike think you can add a few lists? Cf-techTalk (All CF questions, no bs, if its not about coding or server admin it doesn't belong) CF-Talk (CF questions with CF related discussions) CF-Community (General discussions, non-political, non-Religious) CF-Politics (Poiltical discussions only, no cf discussions or questions) CF-Religion (Religious discussions only, no cf discussions or questions) Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

No no no...  please don't do that! The lists are perfect the way that they are.  People can get away with asking the occasional OT on CF-TALK as long as it's not WWOT.  CF-COMMUNITY is a melting pot of anything goes.  Between those two, everything is covered.  When you add all of the other lists, the community gets really fragmented.  This list is self-moderating and it works well. People occasionally get rude, but it goes right back to normal. I subscribe to only these two lists.  Every other tech list I've belonged to is a strict On-Topic where moderators check every post and then send you to the appropriate list, where hopefully somebody might be subscribed who knows the answer.  You end up subscribed to 15 lists, and 90% of the time, you only needed that one answer, and the rest of the topics on that list are entirely uninteresting. Matthew Small Hey Mike think you can add a few lists? Cf-techTalk (All CF questions, no bs, if its not about coding or server admin it doesn't belong) CF-Talk (CF questions with CF related discussions) CF-Community (General discussions, non-political, non-Religious) CF-Politics (Poiltical discussions only, no cf discussions or questions) CF-Religion (Religious discussions only, no cf discussions or questions) Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

I think at that point, it gets to be too many lists is the problem.  I think the current lists could just be re-structured to house the right stuff. The problem is that no one will want to rejoin and go through all that stuff to get on the appropriate lists. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and it'd be worth a revamp, but I think we'll probably just have to deal. I would just like it if Cf-talk could house some of the OT conversations that do vaguely relate to CF because of the community. It's just tough to draw lines because what I want in a list differs from what others want in the list. And, who knows, if I had what I wanted, I'd probably find cause for complaining at some point. :-) John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer Hey Mike think you can add a few lists? Cf-techTalk (All CF questions, no bs, if its not about coding or server admin it doesn't belong) CF-Talk (CF questions with CF related discussions) CF-Community (General discussions, non-political, non-Religious) CF-Politics (Poiltical discussions only, no cf discussions or questions) CF-Religion (Religious discussions only, no cf discussions or questions) Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

Agreed.  We can cover everything we need with the occasional OT thread (which I can say that over the years has never been really WOT). The politics and religion suggestions are just asking for trouble and for friends to become enemies. No no no...  please don't do that! The lists are perfect the way that they are.  People can get away with asking the occasional OT on CF-TALK as long as it's not WWOT.  CF-COMMUNITY is a melting pot of anything goes.  Between those two, everything is covered.  When you add all of the other lists, the community gets really fragmented.  This list is self-moderating and it works well. People occasionally get rude, but it goes right back to normal. I subscribe to only these two lists.  Every other tech list I've belonged to is a strict On-Topic where moderators check every post and then send you to the appropriate list, where hopefully somebody might be subscribed who knows the answer.  You end up subscribed to 15 lists, and 90% of the time, you only needed that one answer, and the rest of the topics on that list are entirely uninteresting. Matthew Small Hey Mike think you can add a few lists? Cf-techTalk (All CF questions, no bs, if its not about coding or server admin it doesn't belong) CF-Talk (CF questions with CF related discussions) CF-Community (General discussions, non-political, non-Religious) CF-Politics (Poiltical discussions only, no cf discussions or questions) CF-Religion (Religious discussions only, no cf discussions or questions) Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

It was tongue in cheek guys, didn't mean it as a real suggestion. I was mocking the over separation of lists.  Personally I don't care if a thread is a little OT once in a while.  Sometimes they just morph into being OT. >>>> From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:Neil.Robertson- Agreed.  We can cover everything we need with the occasional OT thread (which I can say that over the years has never been really WOT). The politics and religion suggestions are just asking for trouble and for friends to become enemies. No no no...  please don't do that! The lists are perfect the way that they are.  People can get away with asking the occasional OT on CF-TALK as long as it's not WWOT. CF-COMMUNITY is a melting pot of anything goes.  Between those two, everything is covered.  When you add all of the other lists, the community gets really fragmented.  This list is self-moderating and it works well. People occasionally get rude, but it goes right back to normal. I subscribe to only these two lists.  Every other tech list I've belonged to is a strict On-Topic where moderators check every post and then send you to the appropriate list, where hopefully somebody might be subscribed who knows the answer.  You end up subscribed to 15 lists, and 90% of the time, you only needed that one answer, and the rest of the topics on that list are entirely uninteresting. Matthew Small Hey Mike think you can add a few lists? Cf-techTalk (All CF questions, no bs, if its not about coding or server admin it doesn't belong) CF-Talk (CF questions with CF related discussions) CF-Community (General discussions, non-political, non-Religious) CF-Politics (Poiltical discussions only, no cf discussions or questions) CF-Religion (Religious discussions only, no cf discussions or questions) Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

I just wish there was something in between Cf-talk and cf-community. I would suspect that is the CF-OT list, but it is very lightly used.  So the list exists, one just needs to get more people to use. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

The various comments that have been made here about may be true, but the client really isn't going to give a hoot about such things are they. Russ Now that depends on your client now doesn't it.  If the majority of your clients are small mom and pop operations then what you claim is probably true. On the other hand, most of my development life has been behind corporate firewalls.  There are other factors for these kinds of clients; such as security. We have to deal with HIPPA regulations.  And I can say that we are much more likely to pay for a solution, if that solution can be said to be more secure, better documented and have an accountable support system that we can rely on if there is a problem. So as with most things in life, it depends on your perspective. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

Thus why I said <quote> Lots of clients sonly have a small budget and cannot afford to pay for everything to be custom written </quote> And of course it depends on your clients, that is the whole point. You cannot expect them all to have £200k to spend. russ The various comments that have been made here about may be true, but the client really isn't going to give a hoot about such things are they. Russ Now that depends on your client now doesn't it.  If the majority of your clients are small mom and pop operations then what you claim is probably true. On the other hand, most of my development life has been behind corporate firewalls.  There are other factors for these kinds of clients; such as security.  We have to deal with HIPPA regulations.  And I can say that we are much more likely to pay for a solution, if that solution can be said to be more secure, better documented and have an accountable support system that we can rely on if there is a problem. So as with most things in life, it depends on your perspective. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

"Now that depends on your client now doesn't it.  If the majority of your clients are small mom and pop operations then what you claim is probably true."    I think it's also good to keep in mind that the majority of clients in the world are either smaller companies or  want to spend as little as possible on anything related to the web, especially in this post-bubble era. Even a lot of larger companies spend considerable energy trying to avoid projects with hefty budgets. --Ferg

My argument is that I wouldn't call PHPBB (or any forum for that matter) a "script".  I'd call that an application in and of itself.  I agree that there aren't many free, community developed, apps out there in CF. But the original poster said something about scripts and I think there are plenty out there, and the ones that aren't can be written by the developer themselves. John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer simple. You have a client, they say they want a forum and point you at PHPBB as an example stating that it is FREE (don't reply saying PHPBB is not FREE, it's just an example, I forget if this is the free one). So what can oyu offer them. Only 1 free cf forum that I know of, and it looks pretty kack.  Offer them the pricy and also kack Fusetalk, or charge them several grand to write one for them. Of cours ethey are gonna say, us ethe PHP forum then. Lots of cleint sonly have a small budget and cannot afford to pay for everything to be custom written, we have to cater for these type sof customers. And usually the only way to do so is to resort to using readily available apps/scripts in other lanaguages. The various comments that have been made here about may be true, but the cleint really isn't going to give a hoot about such things are they. Russ I don't understand why so many people go looking for free scripts and stuff in CF. If CF is touted as a rapid development language, doesn't that mean you should be able to write it yourself? I hear comments all the time that come across as people being lazy or people being cheap, but you never know people's situations. The whole point of the community is to bring people together who are different. Everyone just deal with it and quit complaining. As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting something and giving it a try. That's the beauty of the community is that everyone can do what they want, when they want. Yeah, support eachother when you feel the need, but if you don't want to, that's fine too.  It's just like a living community...not everyone is involved in the same ways and not everyone wants to spend all their time in the community. It's nice to see eachother and help eachother every once in a while, but most of the time, I prefer to venture abroad.  Anyway, this whole argument is kinda silly so I'll let everyone get back to work. John Burns Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer Wyle Laboratories, Inc. | Web Developer

lol soooooooooooo it's called promoting coldfusion and come on, I have seen most of you and I can surely say that there are no fashion mongers between us!! so thats not an excuse. (btw~ sorry connie but sam only delivers to my house!)(but she is available for modeling jobs, I'll put up new bikini pix from weds and more coming on sunday for y'all if its requested, email me off list. see im giving back with some midday motivation :)  ) I'll wear the shirt out and almost every time someone will ask me about it and a lot of the ppl are using php cause like always they think cfm is expensive, so by wearing the shirt and talking to these ppl I am able to bring more ppl to the cfm front. Sitting in your closet (at your parents house) writing cfm code isn't "promoting it" I hate to tell ya. and for Charlie: Ya know charlie I love kids more than anything and I can understand that but its still no excuse, while I don't have a "family" I do have a daughter and my child support alone is $1000 a month and I can afford to support our cfm. And since you love attacking my "grammer" and "infinate knowledge" or whatever thats fine go for it. You attack my grammer malfuctions and I'll laugh at your measily paycheck how about that? The funny thing about my whole beef on here this time is this: Everytime something new is released the same ppl bitch about it and how it doesnt server them up their exact order, an order which they refuse to pay for btw~ And if it did give them what they want then they wouldn't want to pay for it and thats bullshit, those same ppl bitch about every single thing that comes along but they aren't smart enough to figure out that why products don't include cfm support. Ya know all these editors that basically support every other language but not cfm, do you guys not wonder why that is? It's not brain surgery. I hope your car mechanic uses free tools or that your surgeon got his medical license from Crazy Larry's FREE  instant online degree site. Free tools are nice but like when Rob releases a new version of cfeclipse and all you guys do is piss and moan about it, how do you think it makes him feel, do you think he wants to invest all his extra time in something that you guys just try and degrade cause you have to spend another 30 seconds to find a plugin that you want. If I was Rob or anyone that goes through that after putting so much effort into it I would charge for it and let all the cheap asses fend for themselfs (they always have notepad! since they are on windows, how come you dont hardly see ppl with macs complaining about buying stuff?) Point is that if we all want better cfm support in products then chip in and help out cause thats the biggest disadvantage of cfm. Don't get me wrong, I love most of you guys and our coding support on here is amazing, a truely valuable resource in which I am truelly greatfull:) But we need to do more as a community to get those things we want in products because we are seen as the "group who only bitches" and the ppl making these products don't want to deal with us and that's reality:( ~Dave the disruptor~ "A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." I'd prefer buying an OFFICIAL Macromedia ColdFusion shirt, with the official logo. Sorry, but they look like cheap knockoffs. >As for the comments about not buying t-shirts, what the heck did that >have to do with anything? I personally am not a fan of the shirts that >were made and wouldn't put them in the category of "Cool coldfusion >gear" in my opinion, but it's a start. I applaud Will for starting >something and giving it a try. Jeeez! Well thanks ... I guess. *I* think they're pretty killer lookin', and most of the comments I've received have been very positive. Just depends on everyones' tastes I guess. I'm workin' on some new designs too. :) Thanks, Will

(snippage) >  and for Charlie: >  Ya know charlie I love kids more than anything and I can understand that but its still no excuse, while I don't have a "family" I do have a daughter and my child support alone is $1000 a month and I can afford to support our cfm. > >  And since you love attacking my "grammer" and "infinate knowledge" or whatever thats fine go for it. > >  You attack my grammer malfuctions and I'll laugh at your measily paycheck how about that? -sigh-.  I know this is going to be an exercise in futility...kind of like trying to get just a little bit of light from a burnt out bulb...but here goes nothing. I have close to 3,000 posts on Easycfm.com.  I've written a number of tutorials there.  For the past 4 years, I've run an IRC channel dedicated to ColdFusion.  I answer questions on here (when I can). I'm active in my local CFUG.  I think all of that does a hell of a lot more to support the CF Community than you are doing walking around in a t-shirt.  I just don't particularly see you as being in a position to tell anybody that they're not doing enough for the CF community or that they're "cheap" or that they're "pathetic".  I wouldn't expect that from anybody, frankly. You want to laugh at my "measily" paycheck go right ahead.  I'm a pretty happy person and think I do OK.  My wife and kids are happy with what we've got, which is a lot more important to me than whether or not you find it amusing. And since the thread is (and has been) thoroughly off topic, and is travelling at light speed towards the point of diminishing returns (if not already way past it), I'll bow out now in spite of whatever witty retort you may have (feel free to post it to cf-community or send it to my email) -- Charlie Griefer ================================================ "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."

Wow! This thread has turned into a flame war. Calm down, guys! Just wanted to let you know that we've put up two articles on Studio 8 on Fusion Authority, and another article discussing whether you can sell an old copy of Contribute 3 or Flashpaper 2 (many people did buy those products separately) once you upgrade to Studio 8. Here are the URLS: Studio 8: The Next Generation Part I http://www.fusionauthority.com/Reviews/Article.cfm/ArticleID:4485 Studio 8: The Next Generation Part II http://www.fusionauthority.com/Reviews/Article.cfm/ArticleID:4487 Transferring Ownership of Your Macromedia Software http://www.fusionauthority.com/Knowledge_Base/Article.cfm/ArticleID=4486 Judith Dinowitz Editor Fusion Authority http://www.fusionauthority.com The House of Fusion Technical Magazine

> For the past 4 years, I've run an IRC channel > dedicated to ColdFusion. where's that? -- mac jordan home: www.kestrel.org <http://www.kestrel.org> work: www.webhorus.net <http://www.webhorus.net> them: www.jordan-cats.org <http://www.jordan-cats.org>

mac - on DALnet. You familiar with IRC or do you want/need more info on getting there? Charlie ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Charlie, I off list mailed you and the rest, ya know i am not trying to piss you guys off just make you think about what you are doing and maybe just maybe you'll see what it is and maybe help contribute to instead of degrading what it is that makes you a decent living. TG, I am done with this thead, if you want to go, mail me off list ~Dave the disruptor~ "Some people just don't appreciate how difficult it is to dispense wisdom and abuse at the same time."

When a thread starts to talk about things that have nothing to do with the subject, then PLEASE change the subject. The subject above says Studio 8. This has nothing to do with CF vs. PHP.

I know Studio now includes Contribute and Flashpaper, which Contribute included anyway, but does anyone else feel there's something missing?  It's no great loss that they dropped Freehand from the suite, but still...  For most people it feels like Studio is now nothing more than Dreamweaver and Fireworks.  What is the cost to upgrade just those two apps? Constanty "Connie" DeCinko III Web Architect, Webmaster, Web Developer Lone Jet Enterprises Glendale, Arizona www.LoneJet.com

well the biggest program in there is flash make no mistake about that. So basically the new studio is the new flash and some other programs.......... is it worth the upgrade?? hell f**k yes!!! the new stuff is badddddddddddddd azzzzzzzzzzzzz www.communitymx.com has a bunch of free articles this week on some of the new stuff ~Dave the disruptor~ "Some people just don't appreciate how difficult it is to dispense wisdom and abuse at the same time." I know Studio now includes Contribute and Flashpaper, which Contribute included anyway, but does anyone else feel there's something missing? It's no great loss that they dropped Freehand from the suite, but still... For most people it feels like Studio is now nothing more than Dreamweaver and Fireworks. What is the cost to upgrade just those two apps? Constanty "Connie" DeCinko III Web Architect, Webmaster, Web Developer Lone Jet Enterprises Glendale, Arizona www.LoneJet.com

LMFAO!!!! but connie that was totally tasteless, rude and very "bitchy", hell this whole time I thought you were a girl too, too funny!!! " My son could have done better with his crayons." you mean with your crayons? does he know you aren't his mom? Im sure Will & I werent the only ones who didnt know you are a guy. I wouldnt be getting pissed cause he wrote back with a simple mistake after your lame attack on his shirts which are probably outta your league anyway, maybe if he put beavis and butthead on then they'd be the style you would go for.......... See this is what my whole thread was about, someone does something good for the community and some  asswipe like you comes along and spews your crap all over it with no appreciation what so ever are you really Micha in disguise? you just got tagged with the POS label in my book! ~Dave the disruptor~ "Some people just don't appreciate how difficult it is to dispense wisdom and abuse at the same time." Excuse me, but why don't you get your facts straight before you open your big fat mouth. I am a man, not a woman. And second, others have said they look like a developer, not a designer designed them. They lack style and look like they were done with basic Windows fonts. My son could have done better with his crayons. >Sorry, but they look like cheap knockoffs. Well now that's just plain wrong. I've had so many compliments on the quality of these shirts that one or two nasty little comments like that bounce right off them. If anything is cheap it's the fact that someone would call something cheap when they haven't even looked at it in person. The quality of the shirts and the designs stands on its own! Maybe I need to design some pink ones? Or more feminine designs before you'll be happy? Or better yet, I'll come out with CF purses. Will

Since a few people have seen fit to label my shirts cheap, I thought I'd post a few comments I've received from customers. I won't name anyone here, but I WILL tell you that you'd recognize the names. I have more ... Will, - No need to reply back.  I just wanted to comment that the shirt arrived and is looks great. -Very cool shirt, thanks! -These shirts came really quickly, and they are great! Thanks for offering them. Good luck, -Hey Will, Just to let you know that this lot came through safely. These, and the others should go down a treat at next months UG meeting. Cheers,

I just thought you all would like to read what Dave Lyons (dave@jamwerx.com) has on his mind.  I feel so sorry for him.   _____ Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:22 PM To: cdecinko@lonejet.com Cc: Will Tomlinson Subject: Re: Studio 8 announced hey listen Connie, ya know what? just like your name implies you are a cock sucking little piece of shit! now there i said it! fucking asshole!! They dont like u in arizona and you arent liked here, so its not like your opinion counts for shit anyways. Nothing that you would be proud to wear eh? trust me we dont want your sorry ass wearing or even being associated with cfm. It's kinda funny all the mail I have gotten tonight saying what an ass you are, lol You are the exact piece of shit loser cheap ass shit that i was referring to in my posts, and if you could so much as read properly you'd seen that the shirts and Will had nothing to do with this, it was more of your lame ass crying over your poor featureless tools and your stupid ignorance over security at shared hosts and all your other "my screws are completely loose" bullshit! you are an asshole, period did you get that or should I say it again? dickhead On Aug 13, 2005, at 12:08 AM, Connie DeCinko wrote: The shirts are boring and look cheap. There. I said it again. You are offering nothing attractive, nothing that I would be proud to wear. They look like something I might find at the parking lot flea market. The font is not even close to being right. And "Property of..."? How original! Did you think that up or was that your mommy's idea? And don't tell me a damn t-shirt is going to raise interest in CF or cause a developer to change from PHP or ASP just because you are wearing a CF shirt! Now get off it already!   _____ Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:46 PM To: Charlie Griefer Cc: Dave Lyons; cdecinko@lonejet.com Subject: Re: Studio 8 announced Charlie and Connie, I think you're both a little jealous. I can't think of any other reason you'd pick on the tshirts. Look, in the first place, I think you're both missing the idea behind the shirts. The idea is simple, the shirts are simple, the designs are simple. They convey an easily understood message, "COLDFUSION". What is "ColdFusion"? They weren't designed to knock peoples' eyes out with flashy wacky ass graphics all over them. That would defeat the purpose. Let me put it another way. The purpose of the shirts is to promote CF and get more people to recognize the name and ask questions. And don't give me the stupid garbage about how the shirts are cheap looking. Every time you say that it makes you look even more ignorant than you already look. Kinda like opening a door into your own noses. Know whadda mean? For the record, the shirts themselves are Fruit of the Loom 100% heavyweight cotton. They're printed by a large outfit here in NC - the same one that does all the screenprinting for NC Universities. So there's no basement printing goin' on. You're the first two people that've commented on the shirts looking cheap. Well, I consider that just like an eBay auction where the seller has 1000 positive feedbacks and 2 negatives. You figure the two negatives were likely just a couple of jackasses, and move on. So to sum it all up, you guys are two jealous jackasses with nothing better to do than run off at the mouth. If I were you, I'd make no more comments because you've already embarassed yourselves enough. Will Charlie Griefer wrote: Hey guys.   Sorry for the off-list, but things are getting out of hand.  Michael and Judith have both already asked us (yes, 'us'...i'm as guilty as anybody) to cool it once. Right now it's their holiday, so they won't be back on until sundown tomorrow.  They're not going to be happy if they come back and see this going on.  We can all talk about how much we all do for CF, but none of us has done crap compared to them. Right now, we're shitting in their house.  Let's try and show them a little respect, huh? Got issues with each other?  Email directly.  Got issues with me? Screw yourself then (kidding...got issues with me, email me) :) On 8/12/05, Will Tomlinson  <mailto:mhwd@bellsouth.net> <mhwd@bellsouth.net> wrote:    Since a few people have seen fit to label my shirts cheap, I thought I'd post a few comments I've received from customers. I won't name anyone here, but I WILL tell you that you'd recognize the names. I have more ... Will, - No need to reply back.  I just wanted to comment that the shirt arrived and is looks great. -Very cool shirt, thanks! -These shirts came really quickly, and they are great! Thanks for offering them. Good luck, -Hey Will, Just to let you know that this lot came through safely. These, and the others should go down a treat at next months UG meeting. Cheers,

I think it's a bit much posting that language to this list connie. You should have kept that private. Russ I just thought you all would like to read what Dave Lyons (dave@jamwerx.com) has on his mind.  I feel so sorry for him.   _____ Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:22 PM To: cdecinko@lonejet.com Cc: Will Tomlinson Subject: Re: Studio 8 announced hey listen Connie, ya know what? just like your name implies you are a cock sucking little piece of shit! now there i said it! fucking asshole!! They dont like u in arizona and you arent liked here, so its not like your opinion counts for shit anyways. Nothing that you would be proud to wear eh? trust me we dont want your sorry ass wearing or even being associated with cfm. It's kinda funny all the mail I have gotten tonight saying what an ass you are, lol You are the exact piece of shit loser cheap ass shit that i was referring to in my posts, and if you could so much as read properly you'd seen that the shirts and Will had nothing to do with this, it was more of your lame ass crying over your poor featureless tools and your stupid ignorance over security at shared hosts and all your other "my screws are completely loose" bullshit! you are an asshole, period did you get that or should I say it again? dickhead On Aug 13, 2005, at 12:08 AM, Connie DeCinko wrote: The shirts are boring and look cheap. There. I said it again. You are offering nothing attractive, nothing that I would be proud to wear. They look like something I might find at the parking lot flea market. The font is not even close to being right. And "Property of..."? How original! Did you think that up or was that your mommy's idea? And don't tell me a damn t-shirt is going to raise interest in CF or cause a developer to change from PHP or ASP just because you are wearing a CF shirt! Now get off it already!   _____ Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:46 PM To: Charlie Griefer Cc: Dave Lyons; cdecinko@lonejet.com Subject: Re: Studio 8 announced Charlie and Connie, I think you're both a little jealous. I can't think of any other reason you'd pick on the tshirts. Look, in the first place, I think you're both missing the idea behind the shirts. The idea is simple, the shirts are simple, the designs are simple. They convey an easily understood message, "COLDFUSION". What is "ColdFusion"? They weren't designed to knock peoples' eyes out with flashy wacky ass graphics all over them. That would defeat the purpose. Let me put it another way. The purpose of the shirts is to promote CF and get more people to recognize the name and ask questions. And don't give me the stupid garbage about how the shirts are cheap looking. Every time you say that it makes you look even more ignorant than you already look. Kinda like opening a door into your own noses. Know whadda mean? For the record, the shirts themselves are Fruit of the Loom 100% heavyweight cotton. They're printed by a large outfit here in NC - the same one that does all the screenprinting for NC Universities. So there's no basement printing goin' on. You're the first two people that've commented on the shirts looking cheap. Well, I consider that just like an eBay auction where the seller has 1000 positive feedbacks and 2 negatives. You figure the two negatives were likely just a couple of jackasses, and move on. So to sum it all up, you guys are two jealous jackasses with nothing better to do than run off at the mouth. If I were you, I'd make no more comments because you've already embarassed yourselves enough. Will Charlie Griefer wrote: Hey guys.   Sorry for the off-list, but things are getting out of hand.  Michael and Judith have both already asked us (yes, 'us'...i'm as guilty as anybody) to cool it once. Right now it's their holiday, so they won't be back on until sundown tomorrow.  They're not going to be happy if they come back and see this going on.  We can all talk about how much we all do for CF, but none of us has done crap compared to them. Right now, we're shitting in their house.  Let's try and show them a little respect, huh? Got issues with each other?  Email directly.  Got issues with me? Screw yourself then (kidding...got issues with me, email me) :) On 8/12/05, Will Tomlinson  <mailto:mhwd@bellsouth.net> <mhwd@bellsouth.net> wrote:    Since a few people have seen fit to label my shirts cheap, I thought I'd post a few comments I've received from customers. I won't name anyone here, but I WILL tell you that you'd recognize the names. I have more ... Will, - No need to reply back.  I just wanted to comment that the shirt arrived and is looks great. -Very cool shirt, thanks! -These shirts came really quickly, and they are great! Thanks for offering them. Good luck, -Hey Will, Just to let you know that this lot came through safely. These, and the others should go down a treat at next months UG meeting. Cheers,

Sorry, but Dave already made this very public.  I am extremely offended. I think it's a bit much posting that language to this list connie. You should have kept that private.

Connie, What whacked out alternate reality do you live in that makes you think posting a private message from Dave to the entire list was appropriate? In summary, Dave spanked your ass offline and you are looking for support and rallying to start up the 'Dave Sucks Club' because you can't handle his brutal honesty? Come on, get a clue. What is the relevance of whether you like Will's shirts or not? Like I really give a shit what you think anyway. Will's intentions were noble and yours weren't. Will is trying to help others and you are trying to be hurtful. You may very well find that your attitude and childish BS makes it difficult for you to find much support or help around here when you might actually have a real question or need help. You need to deal with your self identity issues and learn when to walk away from a fight after your ass is beat. Most of us subscribe to this list to discuss REAL CF issues and questions and frankly I don't appreciate you hijacking the entire list for your personal crusade to rid the world of ugly CF shirts. Your silly attacks on people and continued whining is far uglier than any CF shirt could ever be. If you don't like the shirts then don't buy them plain and simple. Your opinion is clearly stated when you elect not to purchase the shirts. Nothing more needs to be said. I'm going to go buy one of the 'ugly' shirts for no other purpose than to piss you off when you see me wearing it.   ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

At 06:32 PM 8/13/2005, you wrote: >I'm going to go buy one of the 'ugly' shirts for no other purpose than to >piss you off when you see me wearing it. I got a bit distracted, but I want one, too.  Uglier the better, please. -- Phillip Beazley Onvix -- Website Hosting, Development & E-commerce Visit http://www.onvix.com/ or call 727-578-9600.

yup i did write that too you and i did it in responce to your off line Broadcast mail to will that said "The shirts are boring and look cheap.  There.  I said it again.  You are offering nothing attractive, nothing that I would be proud to wear.  They look like something I might find at the parking lot flea market.  The font is not even close to being right.  And "Property of..."?  How original!  Did you think that up or was that your mommy's idea?  And don't tell me a damn t-shirt is going to raise interest in CF or cause a developer to change from PHP or ASP just because you are wearing a CF shirt!  Now get off it already!" You write something like that to someone not even involved and you are going to get something back. ~Dave the disruptor~ "Some people just don't appreciate how difficult it is to dispense wisdom and abuse at the same time." I just thought you all would like to read what Dave Lyons (dave@jamwerx.com) has on his mind. I feel so sorry for him. _____ Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:22 PM To: cdecinko@lonejet.com Cc: Will Tomlinson Subject: Re: Studio 8 announced hey listen Connie, ya know what? just like your name implies you are a cock sucking little piece of shit! now there i said it! fucking asshole!! They dont like u in arizona and you arent liked here, so its not like your opinion counts for shit anyways. Nothing that you would be proud to wear eh? trust me we dont want your sorry ass wearing or even being associated with cfm. It's kinda funny all the mail I have gotten tonight saying what an ass you are, lol You are the exact piece of shit loser cheap ass shit that i was referring to in my posts, and if you could so much as read properly you'd seen that the shirts and Will had nothing to do with this, it was more of your lame ass crying over your poor featureless tools and your stupid ignorance over security at shared hosts and all your other "my screws are completely loose" bullshit! you are an asshole, period did you get that or should I say it again? dickhead On Aug 13, 2005, at 12:08 AM, Connie DeCinko wrote: The shirts are boring and look cheap. There. I said it again. You are offering nothing attractive, nothing that I would be proud to wear. They look like something I might find at the parking lot flea market. The font is not even close to being right. And "Property of..."? How original! Did you think that up or was that your mommy's idea? And don't tell me a damn t-shirt is going to raise interest in CF or cause a developer to change from PHP or ASP just because you are wearing a CF shirt! Now get off it already! _____ Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:46 PM To: Charlie Griefer Cc: Dave Lyons; cdecinko@lonejet.com Subject: Re: Studio 8 announced Charlie and Connie, I think you're both a little jealous. I can't think of any other reason you'd pick on the tshirts. Look, in the first place, I think you're both missing the idea behind the shirts. The idea is simple, the shirts are simple, the designs are simple. They convey an easily understood message, "COLDFUSION". What is "ColdFusion"? They weren't designed to knock peoples' eyes out with flashy wacky ass graphics all over them. That would defeat the purpose. Let me put it another way. The purpose of the shirts is to promote CF and get more people to recognize the name and ask questions. And don't give me the stupid garbage about how the shirts are cheap looking. Every time you say that it makes you look even more ignorant than you already look. Kinda like opening a door into your own noses. Know whadda mean? For the record, the shirts themselves are Fruit of the Loom 100% heavyweight cotton. They're printed by a large outfit here in NC - the same one that does all the screenprinting for NC Universities. So there's no basement printing goin' on. You're the first two people that've commented on the shirts looking cheap. Well, I consider that just like an eBay auction where the seller has 1000 positive feedbacks and 2 negatives. You figure the two negatives were likely just a couple of jackasses, and move on. So to sum it all up, you guys are two jealous jackasses with nothing better to do than run off at the mouth. If I were you, I'd make no more comments because you've already embarassed yourselves enough. Will Charlie Griefer wrote: Hey guys. Sorry for the off-list, but things are getting out of hand. Michael and Judith have both already asked us (yes, 'us'...i'm as guilty as anybody) to cool it once. Right now it's their holiday, so they won't be back on until sundown tomorrow. They're not going to be happy if they come back and see this going on. We can all talk about how much we all do for CF, but none of us has done crap compared to them. Right now, we're shitting in their house. Let's try and show them a little respect, huh? Got issues with each other? Email directly. Got issues with me? Screw yourself then (kidding...got issues with me, email me) :) Since a few people have seen fit to label my shirts cheap, I thought I'd post a few comments I've received from customers. I won't name anyone here, but I WILL tell you that you'd recognize the names. I have more ... Will, - No need to reply back. I just wanted to comment that the shirt arrived and is looks great. -Very cool shirt, thanks! -These shirts came really quickly, and they are great! Thanks for offering them. Good luck, -Hey Will, Just to let you know that this lot came through safely. These, and the others should go down a treat at next months UG meeting. Cheers,

That's correct.  And you just proved my point that I never attacked Will.  I am attacking his product as being inaccurate and damaging to the brand of Coldfusion. Thank you Dave. yup i did write that too you and i did it in responce to your off line Broadcast mail to will that said "The shirts are boring and look cheap.  There.  I said it again.  You are offering nothing attractive, nothing that I would be proud to wear.  They look like something I might find at the parking lot flea market.  The font is not even close to being right.  And "Property of..."?  How original!  Did you think that up or was that your mommy's idea?  And don't tell me a damn t-shirt is going to raise interest in CF or cause a developer to change from PHP or ASP just because you are wearing a CF shirt!  Now get off it already!"

umm yeah you attacked Will, you can't see that? you have issues BIG ones! and i am glad you have takin it upon yourself to determine what is or what isnt damaging to cfm, if it was don't ya maybe just maybe think MM wouldnt have approved them? or why all the BIG cfm ppl have them, wear them, promote them..... Including the more "famous" ppl at MM. Connie its great you have an opinion but it doesnt mean its right and you were very untacful and quite rude in the way you attatcked them and Will and everyone here knows it except you. ~Dave the disruptor~ "Some people just don't appreciate how difficult it is to dispense wisdom and abuse at the same time." That's correct. And you just proved my point that I never attacked Will. I am attacking his product as being inaccurate and damaging to the brand of Coldfusion. Thank you Dave. yup i did write that too you and i did it in responce to your off line Broadcast mail to will that said "The shirts are boring and look cheap.  There.  I said it again.  You are offering nothing attractive, nothing that I would be proud to wear.  They look like something I might find at the parking lot flea market.  The font is not even close to being right.  And "Property of..."?  How original!  Did you think that up or was that your mommy's idea?  And don't tell me a damn t-shirt is going to raise interest in CF or cause a developer to change from PHP or ASP just because you are wearing a CF shirt!  Now get off it already!"

LMFAO!! well said todd!! So now the lil bitch is showing her true professionalism and is going to my clients sites and emailing them and obviously trying to drum up some business by trying to degrade me to them. What connies lil bitch ass doesnt get is that the ones he emailed are my friends and I also get a copy of the letters. And they I will make sure they file the appropriate complaints with authorities. Now if anyone needs banned its you connie, there is never a time when you go to someone clients site and do that, even though in my case they'd only laugh at your ass cause I burned it so bad! That is the true sign of a true POS (piece of shit) so now you have crossed the line. you are truely lame connie, first you rip those who contribute then u cry cause u got roasted and now you are mailing my clients which is lower than low and you have still yet to take this to me off line. Pathetic, Pathetic, Pathetic and yeah im sure you are getting job offeres off of this, lol whatever , you are so far into denial land that you don't know where you are. And why dont I post the peoples comments? because I am not as lame as you are, they made those to me off list and they stay that way unless they say its ok 4 me to do. There really are no words for what a tasteless low life you really are. ~Dave the disruptor~ "Some people just don't appreciate how difficult it is to dispense wisdom and abuse at the same time." Connie, What whacked out alternate reality do you live in that makes you think posting a private message from Dave to the entire list was appropriate? In summary, Dave spanked your ass offline and you are looking for support and rallying to start up the 'Dave Sucks Club' because you can't handle his brutal honesty? Come on, get a clue. What is the relevance of whether you like Will's shirts or not? Like I really give a shit what you think anyway. Will's intentions were noble and yours weren't. Will is trying to help others and you are trying to be hurtful. You may very well find that your attitude and childish BS makes it difficult for you to find much support or help around here when you might actually have a real question or need help. You need to deal with your self identity issues and learn when to walk away from a fight after your ass is beat. Most of us subscribe to this list to discuss REAL CF issues and questions and frankly I don't appreciate you hijacking the entire list for your personal crusade to rid the world of ugly CF shirts. Your silly attacks on people and continued whining is far uglier than any CF shirt could ever be. If you don't like the shirts then don't buy them plain and simple. Your opinion is clearly stated when you elect not to purchase the shirts. Nothing more needs to be said. I'm going to go buy one of the 'ugly' shirts for no other purpose than to piss you off when you see me wearing it. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Dave, you are just so damn lame, especially for someone dealing in teen porn.  I know your client Charlie is none too happy about your stunts.  All you keep doing is showing how immature you really are. Constanty "Connie" DeCinko III Web Architect, Webmaster, Web Developer Lone Jet Enterprises Glendale, Arizona www.LoneJet.com

ENOUGH ALREADY! Let it go. No one cares. The list is for ColdFusion. Not this crap. > Dave, you are just so damn lame, especially for someone dealing in teen > porn.  I know your client Charlie is none too happy about your stunts.  All > you keep doing is showing how immature you really are.

Connie, for the thousandth time, take it offlist, and don't post your offlist replies here. Dave just stop replying please so that the thread stops. Russ Dave, you are just so damn lame, especially for someone dealing in teen porn.  I know your client Charlie is none too happy about your stunts.  All you keep doing is showing how immature you really are. Constanty "Connie" DeCinko III Web Architect, Webmaster, Web Developer Lone Jet Enterprises Glendale, Arizona www.LoneJet.com

Try as I might, I can't find anything relevant for a CF technical list in this whole thread. I would really appreciate it if the thread ended now. Thanks in advance! Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

I'll echo that. Try as I might, I can't find anything relevant for a CF technical list in this whole thread. I would really appreciate it if the thread ended now. Thanks in advance! Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

Are you trying to get it going again or what ? I'll echo that. Try as I might, I can't find anything relevant for a CF technical list in this whole thread. I would really appreciate it if the thread ended now. Thanks in advance! Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

hey ya know what lady, keep it up its really boosted Wills sales :) And lets see, I just talked to i cand and she said she sent you a email back saying that if you ever contact them again they will file harassment charges against you and I just got off the phone with Charlie and he will be telling you the same thing. So why do you think you have the right to even try that? It's called slander and is against the law and I will be chatting with my attorney about it. And teen porn? where am i doing teen porn? a girl modeling an i can.d swim suit or a way to big shirt is now teen porn? Did you get hit with an "i'm a dumbass" stick twice or something? I mean I guess every beach, river, swimming pool, etc is now a "teen porn" zone? gimme a break lol I have told you like 10 times to bring this to me off list and you dont and then u say its me keeping it going and are immature? it's immature when u get yer ass roasted and have to go to the extremes that you are to try and get even. I mean you are emailing these other people off list telling them what assholes they are, im right here and you know my addy. You are and am wrong, so just admit it and appologize and let it go, my gawd girlfriend get over it!! ~Dave the disruptor~ "Some people just don't appreciate how difficult it is to dispense wisdom and abuse at the same time." Dave, you are just so damn lame, especially for someone dealing in teen porn. I know your client Charlie is none too happy about your stunts. All you keep doing is showing how immature you really are. Constanty "Connie" DeCinko III Web Architect, Webmaster, Web Developer Lone Jet Enterprises Glendale, Arizona www.LoneJet.com