Certification

Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com

Go to http://www.centrasoft.com/cfmxexambusterorderinfo.cfm. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I'll second that. Excellent bit of software. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX > certification exams? forta's cfmx exam guide book centrasoft's cf exam buster software only 2 tools you'll need. -- Charlie Griefer ================================================ "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."

I'll second the CFMX Exam Buster software. It's actually much harder than the actual test. <!----------------//------ andy matthews web developer certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. andy@icglink.com 615.370.1530 x737 --------------//---------> Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com

Make sure you know how to write CFML. You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide. I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed on. I know several people who got "Advanced ColdFusion developers" certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort. Russ Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com

Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com Make sure you know how to write CFML. You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide. I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed on. I know several people who got "Advanced ColdFusion developers" certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort. Russ Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com

What are you talking about?!?!??!?! The ladies love the certification :) Every time I walk into a bar it's always like "Ooooh, tell me again how CFHttp works? It's so exciting when you talk about parsing CSV files at a given URL". On really long, I opt not to even wear my "Ask Me About My CF Cert" T-shirt cause I just don't want to have to deal with the groupies. Joking aside though, the Book and the software are most excellent. Even if you are not caring so much about the cert, the book and practice tests really go a LONG way in pointing out how much you don't realize that you don't know about CF. ..................... Ben Nadel Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer www.bennadel.com Need ColdFusion Help? www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/ [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com Make sure you know how to write CFML. You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide. I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed on. I know several people who got "Advanced ColdFusion developers" certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort. Russ Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com

I actually had the lack of a CF certification held strongly against me about 2-3 years ago in a job interview.  Whether the piece of paper means something or not, I doubt it hurts to have when someone also has many years of experience with CF.  With that said though, I still have yet to get around to getting one. > > Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. > > > -- Aaron Rouse http://www.happyhacker.com/

>Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. > > > This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought.

I've been too busy with CF work to notice (or to get a Certification). ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Lol, I would seriously have to question the kinda of bars you frequent... :) "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com What are you talking about?!?!??!?! The ladies love the certification :) Every time I walk into a bar it's always like "Ooooh, tell me again how CFHttp works? It's so exciting when you talk about parsing CSV files at a given URL". On really long, I opt not to even wear my "Ask Me About My CF Cert" T-shirt cause I just don't want to have to deal with the groupies. Joking aside though, the Book and the software are most excellent. Even if you are not caring so much about the cert, the book and practice tests really go a LONG way in pointing out how much you don't realize that you don't know about CF. ...................... Ben Nadel Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer www.bennadel.com Need ColdFusion Help? www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/ [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com Make sure you know how to write CFML. You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide. I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed on. I know several people who got "Advanced ColdFusion developers" certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort. Russ Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com

> Lol, I would seriously have to question the kinda of bars you frequent... > :) I think I've been to that bar *shudder*

And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not know and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com What are you talking about?!?!??!?! The ladies love the certification :) Every time I walk into a bar it's always like "Ooooh, tell me again how CFHttp works? It's so exciting when you talk about parsing CSV files at a given URL". On really long, I opt not to even wear my "Ask Me About My CF Cert" T-shirt cause I just don't want to have to deal with the groupies. Joking aside though, the Book and the software are most excellent. Even if you are not caring so much about the cert, the book and practice tests really go a LONG way in pointing out how much you don't realize that you don't know about CF. ...................... Ben Nadel Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer www.bennadel.com Need ColdFusion Help? www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/ [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com Make sure you know how to write CFML. You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide. I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed on. I know several people who got "Advanced ColdFusion developers" certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort. Russ Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX certification exams? -- Neil Middleton Visit feed-squirrel.com

> And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not know > and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless. "meaningless" is subjective. You and me and everyone else on this list know that the cert is meaningless when it comes to determining who is a "better" programmer. But let's ask someone who's job hunting...and a particular company has narrowed their search down to two candidates... our friend and one other person.  EVERYTHING between the two is equal (years of experience, skill level, education)...except the other person has their cert, and in this instance, that is enough to tip the scales in favor of the other person, who gets the job.  Ask them if it's meaningless. I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7.  It's never helped me.  But I don't regret having it for one simple fact.  It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer ================================================ "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."

> I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7.  It's never helped me.  But I don't > regret having it for one simple fact.  It will NEVER hurt me. > -- > Charlie Griefer You could get a paper cut...

Certification is a foundation to the overall process of being a developer. I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn what is new about each revision of ColdFusion. I assisted in a study group to help people certify and everyone who regularly attended benefited from the material.  We use Ben's certification as guidance, but advocated the CF Exam buster. Years of ColdFusion usage with multiple projects will determine a well rounded developer or problem solver. I would recommend that if you become F certified, that you follow up with another certification that will assist your CF knowledge.  Examples would be database centric certifications or perhaps the entry level Java certification. Teddy ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Certification is a foundation to the overall process of being a developer. > I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn what is new about each > revision of ColdFusion. I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features then perhaps they aren't a very good developer. A developer should be learning constantly everyday. Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com

Bryan, What if it isn't you primary job role? What about new people? What about right after a major update release and you want to learn and certify on the new version ASAP? People study in many different ways.  Some people do well by doing examples and others are good book learners. I have been using CF for 8 years and I got a 84% because I keep mixing up features from 6, 7 and 8. A lot of developers get comfortable with what works and do not use the entire language.  I know that I use certain techniques over others because of peformance reasons or code complexity.  The certification forces you to think of all of the functions you are not used to working with everyday. I will probably retake the test and get above 84%, but just blanketly saying what people "should" be doing is entirely subjective. Cheers, Teddy ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Bryan, > What if it isn't you primary job role? we are talking about developers...and knowing what they are doing is their job > What about new people? What about them....I'd have them read WACK before putting them through an exam > What about right after a major update release and you want to learn and > certify on the new version ASAP? Only matters if you want to certify (which I see no need for other than to line coporate pockets).  I simply read the docs for the new version and learn myself. I sure don't need an exam for that See Doug's post....it sums up my thoughts on the subject failry well. I'm done with this subject...everyone can believe what they want...I'm going to keep my opinion and get actual work done ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com

> I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features > then > perhaps they aren't a very good developer. Or perhaps the work they are doing simply doesn't expose them to some of the more esoteric functions of the language that the exam likely covers. Being a good developer has less to do with having memorized every last tag, function and feature, and much more with how that knowledge is applied to solve a problem. I can always look in the docs to get an answer to a syntax question, but the docs don't tell me how to use it to solve the particular problem in front of me - that's where experience and skill comes in. Exams, however, by their nature, tend to be more about reciting syntax and knowing the language in a broad fashion, rather than a deep one. So I can see how brushing up for an exam might give me more than a few "a ha!" moments as I cover aspects of the language I simply haven't had a real world use for, and it's useful information, but whether I knew it or not before hand has little bearing on how well I write software.

But that's really what the exam is, it tests how many tags and functions you know. There is very little else to it. > I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features > then > perhaps they aren't a very good developer. Or perhaps the work they are doing simply doesn't expose them to some of the more esoteric functions of the language that the exam likely covers. Being a good developer has less to do with having memorized every last tag, function and feature, and much more with how that knowledge is applied to solve a problem. I can always look in the docs to get an answer to a syntax question, but the docs don't tell me how to use it to solve the particular problem in front of me - that's where experience and skill comes in. Exams, however, by their nature, tend to be more about reciting syntax and knowing the language in a broad fashion, rather than a deep one. So I can see how brushing up for an exam might give me more than a few "a ha!" moments as I cover aspects of the language I simply haven't had a real world use for, and it's useful information, but whether I knew it or not before hand has little bearing on how well I write software.

Do you use every feature of ColdFusion every single day?  A lot of times it can point out things that you don't normally use or didn't realize existed and may help you come up with new ways of doing things. That would make it part of constantly learning... Eric > Certification is a foundation to the overall process of being a developer. > I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn what is new about > each revision of ColdFusion. I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features then perhaps they aren't a very good developer. A developer should be learning constantly everyday. Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com

Nah... The paper's too thick. <!----------------//------ andy matthews web developer certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. andy@icglink.com 615.370.1530 x737 --------------//---------> > I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7.  It's never helped me.  But I don't > regret having it for one simple fact.  It will NEVER hurt me. > -- > Charlie Griefer You could get a paper cut...

I strongly agree. The one other thing to point out is that it's just like college degrees and even high school diplomas. In reality, they're really not that hard to get. They don't mean you're really all that smart because I've seen plenty of morons with Masters degrees and even PhDs but it's the fact that they did it. I work in the gov't world and they base a lot on the degrees you have. I wouldn't ever claim that a CF certification will get you paid more, but in the mind of a manager (who may not know much) it probably looks pretty impressive. John Burns > And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not know > and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless. "meaningless" is subjective. You and me and everyone else on this list know that the cert is meaningless when it comes to determining who is a "better" programmer. But let's ask someone who's job hunting...and a particular company has narrowed their search down to two candidates... our friend and one other person.  EVERYTHING between the two is equal (years of experience, skill level, education)...except the other person has their cert, and in this instance, that is enough to tip the scales in favor of the other person, who gets the job.  Ask them if it's meaningless. I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7.  It's never helped me.  But I don't regret having it for one simple fact.  It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer ================================================ "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."

<chuckle> > I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7.  It's never helped me.  But I don't > regret having it for one simple fact.  It will NEVER hurt me. > -- > Charlie Griefer You could get a paper cut...

> > I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7.  It's never helped me.  But I don't ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Nuh-uh.  It's in a frame :P  (and quite nicely covers a piece of the wall that could use some sanding and painting.  hey...i guess it -has- helped me) :) -- Charlie Griefer ================================================ "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."

Hmm, I can't remember ever having to ago my certs for my degrees in fact, I am not even sure where they are! "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com I strongly agree. The one other thing to point out is that it's just like college degrees and even high school diplomas. In reality, they're really not that hard to get. They don't mean you're really all that smart because I've seen plenty of morons with Masters degrees and even PhDs but it's the fact that they did it. I work in the gov't world and they base a lot on the degrees you have. I wouldn't ever claim that a CF certification will get you paid more, but in the mind of a manager (who may not know much) it probably looks pretty impressive. John Burns > And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not know > and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless. "meaningless" is subjective. You and me and everyone else on this list know that the cert is meaningless when it comes to determining who is a "better" programmer. But let's ask someone who's job hunting...and a particular company has narrowed their search down to two candidates... our friend and one other person.  EVERYTHING between the two is equal (years of experience, skill level, education)...except the other person has their cert, and in this instance, that is enough to tip the scales in favor of the other person, who gets the job.  Ask them if it's meaningless. I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7.  It's never helped me.  But I don't regret having it for one simple fact.  It will NEVER hurt me. -- Charlie Griefer ================================================ "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."

I would like to make the point that the certs are not worthless - they answer the question as to your knowledge for 90% of the interviews you will take...you will rarely get anyone outright questioning your knowledge of CF if you have the advanced certification. I haven't gotten the 7 cert myself yet, but I have other things on my resume that fill that gap on my resume in terms of providing proof of my CF knowledge. I am also going to take serious issue with the concept that preparing for an exam is cheating. That is a seriously bone-headed comment. This exam is like any other exam and warrants preparation if you actually take it seriously...if you don't take it seriously, then don't prepare take your chances, but one would ask, why even bother taking it if you don't take the exam seriously enough to prepare. P.S. Back when I took the exam for 5 and 6, I used the cfexambuster and it was excellent. - Brian Rinaldi blog - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/blog CF Open Source List - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/cfopensourcelist

The study guide is basically a "how to pass the certification" book. You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they would certainly call that cheating. I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass. If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? Russ I would like to make the point that the certs are not worthless - they answer the question as to your knowledge for 90% of the interviews you will take...you will rarely get anyone outright questioning your knowledge of CF if you have the advanced certification. I haven't gotten the 7 cert myself yet, but I have other things on my resume that fill that gap on my resume in terms of providing proof of my CF knowledge. I am also going to take serious issue with the concept that preparing for an exam is cheating. That is a seriously bone-headed comment. This exam is like any other exam and warrants preparation if you actually take it seriously...if you don't take it seriously, then don't prepare take your chances, but one would ask, why even bother taking it if you don't take the exam seriously enough to prepare. P.S. Back when I took the exam for 5 and 6, I used the cfexambuster and it was excellent. - Brian Rinaldi blog - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/blog CF Open Source List - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/cfopensourcelist

By your definition, any textbook would be considered a "how to pass a test" manual right? <!----------------//------ andy matthews web developer certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. andy@icglink.com 615.370.1530 x737 --------------//---------> The study guide is basically a "how to pass the certification" book. You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they would certainly call that cheating. I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass. If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? Russ

Erm no, haven't you ready any books before ? By your definition, any textbook would be considered a "how to pass a test" manual right? <!----------------//------ andy matthews web developer certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. andy@icglink.com 615.370.1530 x737 --------------//---------> The study guide is basically a "how to pass the certification" book. You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they would certainly call that cheating. I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass. If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? Russ

to improve your skills and knowledge perhaps? The process of preparing for the test forces you to look into all the nooks and crannies of CF. I actually think its a good thing to do when you are first learning CF or maybe have 1 or 2 years under your belt. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Maybe for some people. to improve your skills and knowledge perhaps? The process of preparing for the test forces you to look into all the nooks and crannies of CF. I actually think its a good thing to do when you are first learning CF or maybe have 1 or 2 years under your belt. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

To be honest, I am looking at certification mainly because it's a nice easy way of showing you aren't just mentioning it on your CV, but you do have at least a decent understanding of the topic.  Something that people (esp contractors) my find quite useful to have. Neil ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Hmmm.... how 'bout to learn something new? Anyone who refuses to open a book to see if there's anything new they can learn or refuses to participate in a mailing list would have to feel like they know everything there is to know about a topic and can't possibly learn anything new... Rick The study guide is basically a "how to pass the certification" book. You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they would certainly call that cheating. I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass. If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then what is the point in doing it? Russ

I doubt you would be chosen just because you have a cert, we always test developers who come for interview and we have turned away many certified ones who knew jack when it can to real written and oral test. The non certs were the ones who shone. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com I would like to make the point that the certs are not worthless - they answer the question as to your knowledge for 90% of the interviews you will take...you will rarely get anyone outright questioning your knowledge of CF if you have the advanced certification. I haven't gotten the 7 cert myself yet, but I have other things on my resume that fill that gap on my resume in terms of providing proof of my CF knowledge. I am also going to take serious issue with the concept that preparing for an exam is cheating. That is a seriously bone-headed comment. This exam is like any other exam and warrants preparation if you actually take it seriously...if you don't take it seriously, then don't prepare take your chances, but one would ask, why even bother taking it if you don't take the exam seriously enough to prepare. P.S. Back when I took the exam for 5 and 6, I used the cfexambuster and it was excellent. - Brian Rinaldi blog - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/blog CF Open Source List - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/cfopensourcelist

> I doubt you would be chosen just because you have a cert, we always test > developers who come for interview and we have turned away many certified > ones who knew jack when it can to real written and oral test. > > The non certs were the ones who shone. In a case where everything else is equal, it could be a deciding factor. Also realize that not all places test their interviewees.  Not all places have what I would consider to be "qualified" folks doing the interviewing (it's frequently managers...the same managers who love to chant the mantra of "we don't have time to do it right, we need to get it done quickly" and then wonder why 2 weeks after its release it breaks horribly) :) As I've already said...it may -never- help you.  But can you argue that it could ever hurt to have? -- Charlie Griefer ================================================ "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."

I have seen where certifications hurt people, not in the CF world but in the IT world.  Back when I was working for a computer parts wholesaler anytime they were hiring for techs if someone came in saying they had A+ certification that immediately meant they were not going to get hired. Seeing some of the comments on here about how worthless a CF Certification is makes me wonder if something similar might happen in the CF world. Probably not an instant no-hire case but perhaps makes it harder for someone to get hired because the hiring party might be reluctant in accepting the person interviewing really does know their stuff. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

The CF certification has been around for years and hasn't had THAT bad of a stigma attached to it. When I interview I like to see it because it's a general indicator of the willingness of the candidate to pursue ongoing professional development. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>But that's really what the exam is, it tests >how many tags and functions you >know. There is very little else to it. Exactly, which is why it's not an ideal measure of a developer's ability. The process of studying for one can be of some benefit though, if only to get a little exposure to features you might otherwise not have encountered.

I think that is the point. It really doesn't mean a whole lot, and it should not be an indicator of how much you know (or do not), as Snake noted, it is not exactly a test, not like we took at Uni! I think if you took it now you would pass no worries. If I were were you, I would save your money. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com To be honest, I am looking at certification mainly because it's a nice easy way of showing you aren't just mentioning it on your CV, but you do have at least a decent understanding of the topic.  Something that people (esp contractors) my find quite useful to have. Neil ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

If you just want a cert to put on your CV to show off to employers and bolster your ego try www.brainbench.com Their CF certification is about the same, and your score will be listed/ranked as well, so you can even boast about your ranking if you like. -- Russ Michaels In the top 3 coldfusion developers in the UK according to brainbench.com :-) [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: 16 December 2006 08:08 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification I think that is the point. It really doesn't mean a whole lot, and it should not be an indicator of how much you know (or do not), as Snake noted, it is not exactly a test, not like we took at Uni! I think if you took it now you would pass no worries. If I were were you, I would save your money. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com To be honest, I am looking at certification mainly because it's a nice easy way of showing you aren't just mentioning it on your CV, but you do have at least a decent understanding of the topic.  Something that people (esp contractors) my find quite useful to have. Neil ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them.  In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com >Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. > > > This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought.

I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding questions, like 1. write a simple web service 2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables 3. what is the error in the following code And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a good score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not certified, and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of prior experience. Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do see jobs asking for it now and then. Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you may as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of getting a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the cert or you may be disapointed. Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if someone has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I would imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and don't know better. Russ [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them.  In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com >Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. > > > This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought.

Russ, You want to share that test?  We've had many times where we needed to hire a contractor and when they got here even though they interviewed well and had good cf resumes, the didn't know the even the simple things. It seems a lot of "temp agencies" (for lack of a better term) coach their contractors on how to bs their way in. Steve I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding questions, like 1. write a simple web service 2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables 3. what is the error in the following code And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a good score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not certified, and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of prior experience. Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do see jobs asking for it now and then. Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you may as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of getting a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the cert or you may be disapointed. Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if someone has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I would imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and don't know better. Russ [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them.  In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com >Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. > > > This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought.

If you email me offline I'll send you a copy. Russ Russ, You want to share that test?  We've had many times where we needed to hire a contractor and when they got here even though they interviewed well and had good cf resumes, the didn't know the even the simple things. It seems a lot of "temp agencies" (for lack of a better term) coach their contractors on how to bs their way in. Steve I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding questions, like 1. write a simple web service 2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables 3. what is the error in the following code And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a good score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not certified, and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of prior experience. Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do see jobs asking for it now and then. Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you may as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of getting a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the cert or you may be disapointed. Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if someone has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I would imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and don't know better. Russ [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them.  In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com >Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. > > > This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought.

Yeah, the agencies do fluff CV up a little.. We had a few "advanced" contractors who didn't even know whan an array or structure was. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com If you email me offline I'll send you a copy. Russ Russ, You want to share that test?  We've had many times where we needed to hire a contractor and when they got here even though they interviewed well and had good cf resumes, the didn't know the even the simple things. It seems a lot of "temp agencies" (for lack of a better term) coach their contractors on how to bs their way in. Steve I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding questions, like 1. write a simple web service 2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables 3. what is the error in the following code And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a good score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not certified, and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of prior experience. Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do see jobs asking for it now and then. Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you may as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of getting a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the cert or you may be disapointed. Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if someone has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I would imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and don't know better. Russ [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Certification Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the reason they do not take them.  In the professional world whether you are ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in the UK. I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?! The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com >Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world. > > > This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months. Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are those who boast that they don't have it? just a thought.

In the staffing portion of my company, we do not pay any attention to Brainbench certs.  You can look every answer up as you take the test.   Many of our clients require the developers we send out to be CF certified by Adobe.  Just my 2c. Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can look up answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench tests are intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to be closed-book. So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much harder than the questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions cannot be answered without looking up the answer. That is what you are being tested on. Can you look up the correct answer or solve the problem within two minutes. It is not testing how well you can memorize a study guide. I would place a higher value on a vendor cert, but I would look favorably on a Brainbench cert as well. The fact that someone took the time to get certified is an indication that they are serious about their career and are interested in professional growth. -Mike Chabot ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Also in a real world environment you don't try and code from memory do you. You refer to your books and documentation and lists like this one to get a job done if you don't know how to do it. You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can look up answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench tests are intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to be closed-book. So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much harder than the questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions cannot be answered without looking up the answer. That is what you are being tested on. Can you look up the correct answer or solve the problem within two minutes. It is not testing how well you can memorize a study guide. I would place a higher value on a vendor cert, but I would look favorably on a Brainbench cert as well. The fact that someone took the time to get certified is an indication that they are serious about their career and are interested in professional growth. -Mike Chabot ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I don't know.  I took a brainbench CF test back in the day and I remember a lot of questions that you can just paste into an cfm page, run it and get the answer... Russ ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Not really a marker.. As going by that surely you should also require them to be Microsoft certified etc.. As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one multiple choice still? where the answer is right in front of you on every Q! As my old Physics teacher used to say, multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a stick could get a pass by stroking the page randomly... :-) "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com In the staffing portion of my company, we do not pay any attention to Brainbench certs.  You can look every answer up as you take the test.   Many of our clients require the developers we send out to be CF certified by Adobe.  Just my 2c. Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: > Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the > reason they do not take them.  In the professional world whether you are > ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- the > intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note > that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the > information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have > received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call > our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within this ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

These are client requests, not our own, and many clients do request certifications.  I do feel that the CF certification should be building pieces of architecture, but I'm sure it isn't up to me ;).  Regardless, all internal hires are put through a coding test. Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Not really a marker.. As going by that surely you should also > require them to be Microsoft certified etc.. Why should CF developers be Microsoft certified? > As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one > multiple choice still? where the answer is right in front of > you on every Q! As my old Physics teacher used to say, > multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a stick could > get a pass by stroking the page randomly... Your old physics teacher could stand to brush up on instructional design. Well-written multiple choice exams will not typically be passed by a monkey with a stick. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Given that most universities do not require their instructors or professors to have any skills at teaching, I'm not surprised that he would have such an opinion. A well designed multiple choice test cannot be passed by random selection. Depending on the structure, even getting 25% using random responses would be surprising. regards, larry

Well I have to say that I know someone who passed the Macromedia certification using random selection. He had never done a single line of CFML in his life. Russ ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Given that most universities do not require their instructors or professors to have any skills at teaching, I'm not surprised that he would have such an opinion. A well designed multiple choice test cannot be passed by random selection. Depending on the structure, even getting 25% using random responses would be surprising. regards, larry

This is why I don't buy into certifications. Anyone can study for a test, and get the answers right. Thankfully my boss sees it the same way. My company has each applicant take a logic test (11 questions), and if you don't pass with a 9 or better you don't get hired. Period. It doesn't matter how much schooling you've had or which alphabet soup certifications you've got. My company is interested in smart people that get results. Not folks who can take a test. "I SUMMON THE *VAST* POWERS OF CERTIFICATION! Oh. Well this is embarassing... that's all I remember from those classes..." Cheers, Chris Snake wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Well statistically speaking, you should be able to get 25% (if the answers have 4 choices) just by guessing.  If you can eliminate some of the wrong answers from the questions using educated guessing.  Unless the test is very well designed in such a way that it is not immediately apparent which questions are wrong, a person should easily be able to get a higher then 25% score.   Russ ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Original Message > > I doubt you would be chosen just because you have a cert, we always test > > developers who come for interview and we have turned away many certified ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- factor. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- In many cases, you wouldn't get past the HR department without a certification. Many corporations have standard ways of weeding out applicants. One way is to put a certification in the specifications for the position. The HR staff review all the applications and many are tossed just as a first run through the paperwork. Hiring managers may never even see your resume if you don't have a certification. I agree completely with the idea is about breaking ties. Anything that gives you the edge with other equal applicants is positive whether it is the way you handle the interview or your professional certifications. I have always said that I thought that certifications in IT were BS. At one time as a manager, I assumed someone who got a certification had to since they didn't have any skills or experience. I have to admit now (after 20 years of experience) that a youngster with little experience and a certification may make the cut out of HR when I wouldn't no matter my skill level or experience. All being equal, I now encourage workers to get more training and get their certifications. Building a resume is important and continuous.

> Well I have to say that I know someone who passed the > Macromedia certification using random selection. He had never > done a single line of CFML in his life. I know someone who won the lottery. That doesn't mean I think it's a fair bet that I will also win the lottery. That said, I don't think the CF certification is especially hard, and it does include quite a bit of non-CF stuff (HTML, basic CSS, JS, SQL). There are plenty of multiple-choice IT certs that are quite difficult, even if you're familiar with the subject matter. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the applicant actually took it, can you? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

Some companies actually have the applicant take the brainbench exam as part of the interviewing process.  In that case it is proctored, and if controlled properly, might give a decent indication of the candidate's skill set.   Russ ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Yes you can, you can view their results online. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the applicant actually took it, can you? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

I think what he means is that there is no confirmation that the person whose certificate it is, is actually the person that took the test. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I don't know.  I took a brainbench CF test back in the day and I remember a lot of questions that you can just paste into an cfm page, run it and get the answer... Russ IIRC the Brainbench test I took for CFMX that a recruiter requested I take a few months ago, one could no longer "copy and paste" the code.  It was an image or something so that you would have to type it to do that trick.  But I'm not sure. I do know, back in the day, I took the HTML test and got a something like a 4.19, something that was just a few hundredths below a master.  I said to myself, "Hey that can't be more then one question."  So I took at again.  And I got the same score.  Took it again a couple of hours later and got the same score.  I had to spend an evening studying and then I got a better score. I was impressed with the consistency of the testing. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA --------- | 1 |   | ---------  Binary Soduko |   |   | --------- "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the applicant actually took it, can you? Other then there is nothing preventing someone from proctoring the test if they so desire.  Just don't let the applicant take the test on their own. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA --------- | 1 |   | ---------  Binary Soduko |   |   | --------- "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

Hey all you highly certified (and thus extremely bright right)....have a look at my thread on "CFDOCUMENT hell" and put some of that awesome power to work ;-) I'm about to start forcing page breaks after counting lines which is why I wanted to use CFDOCUMENT in the first friggin place (to handle pagination and section specific headers with ease).  It forces a flippin page break after each section and if you have more than one header, the last one overwrites all others (regardless of being in a section or not)!! So put on those thinking caps on and refer to your exam study materials and be helpful and let this poor certification thread die already....have mercy on the poor thing ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com

We've used Brainbench with some success.  We have applicants take the tests on premise, so we proctor them ourselves. Rich Kroll > > Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the > applicant actually took it, can you? > > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software > http://www.figleaf.com/

> Some companies actually have the applicant take the brainbench exam as > part > of the interviewing process.  In that case it is proctored, and if > controlled properly, might give a decent indication of the candidate's > skill > set. That's exactly how we perform and use the tests. Rich Kroll

Yes you can, you can view their results online. I believe Dave's point was that if you don't proctor the exam, you can tell if the person who took the test is the one applying for the position.  Maybe he got his really good friend "Ben Forta" or somebody to take the examine for him. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA --------- | 1 |   | ---------  Binary Soduko |   |   | --------- "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

The public transcript shows the persons name, all the tests they have done, their scores, when they took the test etc. Russ Yes you can, you can view their results online. I believe Dave's point was that if you don't proctor the exam, you can tell if the person who took the test is the one applying for the position.  Maybe he got his really good friend "Ben Forta" or somebody to take the examine for him. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA --------- | 1 |   | ---------  Binary Soduko |   |   | --------- "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

Yes, but what's stopping me from having my friend take the test for me? Russ ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

The public transcript shows the persons name, all the tests they have done, their scores, when they took the test etc. Russ But there is NOT a webcam recording of the individual who was actually sitting at the keyboard taking the exam under that person's login.  That is the point of proctoring.  To make sure the person taking the test is who they say they are, and are following in rules in place. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA --------- | 1 |   | ---------  Binary Soduko |   |   | --------- "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

Well that much may be true, but if someone is idiotic enough to get someone else to take the test for them, I don't think they are going to keep the job very long. Russ The public transcript shows the persons name, all the tests they have done, their scores, when they took the test etc. Russ But there is NOT a webcam recording of the individual who was actually sitting at the keyboard taking the exam under that person's login.  That is the point of proctoring.  To make sure the person taking the test is who they say they are, and are following in rules in place. -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA --------- | 1 |   | ---------  Binary Soduko |   |   | --------- "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

> Yes you can, you can view their results online. http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html I strongly advise you to avoid online dating. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

No problem Dave, I'm a married man :-) > Yes you can, you can view their results online. http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html I strongly advise you to avoid online dating. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!