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Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264391
No problem Dave, I'm a married man :-)
> Yes you can, you can view their results online.
http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html
I strongly advise you to avoid online dating.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction
at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore,
Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264390
Well that much may be true, but if someone is idiotic enough to get someone
else to take the test for them, I don't think they are going to keep the job
very long.
Russ
The public transcript shows the persons name, all the tests they have done,
their scores, when they took the test etc.
Russ
But there is NOT a webcam recording of the individual who was actually
sitting at the keyboard taking the exam under that person's login. That is
the point of proctoring. To make sure the person taking the test is who
they say they are, and are following in rules in place.
--------------
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA
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Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264371
> Yes you can, you can view their results online.
http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html
I strongly advise you to avoid online dating.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more
information!
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264362
Yes, but what's stopping me from having my friend take the test for me?
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Ian Skinner
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264350
The public transcript shows the persons name, all the tests they have done, their
scores, when they took the test etc.
Russ
But there is NOT a webcam recording of the individual who was actually sitting at
the keyboard taking the exam under that person's login. That is the point of
proctoring. To make sure the person taking the test is who they say they are,
and are following in rules in place.
--------------
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA
---------
| 1 | |
--------- Binary Soduko
| | |
---------
"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning
Confidentiality Notice: This message including any
attachments is for the sole use of the intended
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information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
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Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264347
The public transcript shows the persons name, all the tests they have done,
their scores, when they took the test etc.
Russ
Yes you can, you can view their results online.
I believe Dave's point was that if you don't proctor the exam, you can tell
if the person who took the test is the one applying for the position. Maybe
he got his really good friend "Ben Forta" or somebody to take the examine
for him.
--------------
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA
---------
| 1 | |
--------- Binary Soduko
| | |
---------
"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning
Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the
sole use of the intended
recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any
unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any
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Author: loathe
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264345
I think what he means is that there is no confirmation that the person whose
certificate it is, is actually the person that took the test.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Ian Skinner
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264343
Yes you can, you can view their results online.
I believe Dave's point was that if you don't proctor the exam, you can tell if
the person who took the test is the one applying for the position. Maybe he got
his really good friend "Ben Forta" or somebody to take the examine for him.
--------------
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA
---------
| 1 | |
--------- Binary Soduko
| | |
---------
"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning
Confidentiality Notice: This message including any
attachments is for the sole use of the intended
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information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
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Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264340
Yes you can, you can view their results online.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the
applicant actually took it, can you?
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction
at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore,
Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: Bryan Stevenson
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264338
Hey all you highly certified (and thus extremely bright right)....have a look at
my thread on "CFDOCUMENT hell" and put some of that awesome power to work ;-)
I'm about to start forcing page breaks after counting lines which is why I
wanted to use CFDOCUMENT in the first friggin place (to handle pagination and
section specific headers with ease). It forces a flippin page break after each
section and if you have more than one header, the last one overwrites all others
(regardless of being in a section or not)!!
So put on those thinking caps on and refer to your exam study materials and be
helpful and let this poor certification thread die already....have mercy on the
poor thing ;-)
Cheers
Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com
web: www.electricedgesystems.com
Author: Richard Kroll
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264337
> Some companies actually have the applicant take the brainbench exam as
> part
> of the interviewing process. In that case it is proctored, and if
> controlled properly, might give a decent indication of the candidate's
> skill
> set.
That's exactly how we perform and use the tests.
Rich Kroll
Author: Richard Kroll
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264336
We've used Brainbench with some success. We have applicants take the
tests on premise, so we proctor them ourselves.
Rich Kroll
>
> Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if
the
> applicant actually took it, can you?
>
> Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> http://www.figleaf.com/
Author: Ian Skinner
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264335
Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the
applicant actually took it, can you?
Other then there is nothing preventing someone from proctoring the test if they
so desire. Just don't let the applicant take the test on their own.
--------------
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA
---------
| 1 | |
--------- Binary Soduko
| | |
---------
"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning
Confidentiality Notice: This message including any
attachments is for the sole use of the intended
recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender and
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Author: Ian Skinner
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264333
I don't know. I took a brainbench CF test back in the day and I remember a lot
of questions that you can just paste into an cfm page, run it and get the
answer...
Russ
IIRC the Brainbench test I took for CFMX that a recruiter requested I take a few
months ago, one could no longer "copy and paste" the code. It was an image or
something so that you would have to type it to do that trick. But I'm not sure.
I do know, back in the day, I took the HTML test and got a something like a 4.19,
something that was just a few hundredths below a master. I said to myself, "Hey
that can't be more then one question." So I took at again. And I got the same
score. Took it again a couple of hours later and got the same score. I had to
spend an evening studying and then I got a better score.
I was impressed with the consistency of the testing.
--------------
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA
---------
| 1 | |
--------- Binary Soduko
| | |
---------
"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning
Confidentiality Notice: This message including any
attachments is for the sole use of the intended
recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender and
delete any copies of this message.
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264332
Some companies actually have the applicant take the brainbench exam as part
of the interviewing process. In that case it is proctored, and if
controlled properly, might give a decent indication of the candidate's skill
set.
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264331
Well statistically speaking, you should be able to get 25% (if the answers
have 4 choices) just by guessing. If you can eliminate some of the wrong
answers from the questions using educated guessing. Unless the test is very
well designed in such a way that it is not immediately apparent which
questions are wrong, a person should easily be able to get a higher then 25%
score.
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264330
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Brainbench certifications are unproctored, so you can't even tell if the
applicant actually took it, can you?
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264329
> Well I have to say that I know someone who passed the
> Macromedia certification using random selection. He had never
> done a single line of CFML in his life.
I know someone who won the lottery. That doesn't mean I think it's a fair
bet that I will also win the lottery.
That said, I don't think the CF certification is especially hard, and it
does include quite a bit of non-CF stuff (HTML, basic CSS, JS, SQL). There
are plenty of multiple-choice IT certs that are quite difficult, even if
you're familiar with the subject matter.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264328
I don't know. I took a brainbench CF test back in the day and I remember a
lot of questions that you can just paste into an cfm page, run it and get
the answer...
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Christopher Jordan
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264325
This is why I don't buy into certifications. Anyone can study for a
test, and get the answers right. Thankfully my boss sees it the same
way. My company has each applicant take a logic test (11 questions), and
if you don't pass with a 9 or better you don't get hired. Period. It
doesn't matter how much schooling you've had or which alphabet soup
certifications you've got. My company is interested in smart people that
get results. Not folks who can take a test.
"I SUMMON THE *VAST* POWERS OF CERTIFICATION! Oh.
Well this is embarassing... that's all I remember from those classes..."
Cheers,
Chris
Snake wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264322
Well I have to say that I know someone who passed the Macromedia
certification using random selection. He had never done a single line of
CFML in his life.
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Given that most universities do not require their instructors or professors
to have any skills at teaching, I'm not surprised that he would have such an
opinion. A well designed multiple choice test cannot be passed by random
selection. Depending on the structure, even getting 25% using random
responses would be surprising.
regards,
larry
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264321
Also in a real world environment you don't try and code from memory do you.
You refer to your books and documentation and lists like this one to get a
job done if you don't know how to do it.
You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can look up
answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench tests are
intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to be closed-book.
So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much harder than the
questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions cannot be answered
without looking up the answer. That is what you are being tested on. Can you
look up the correct answer or solve the problem within two minutes. It is
not testing how well you can memorize a study guide.
I would place a higher value on a vendor cert, but I would look favorably on
a Brainbench cert as well. The fact that someone took the time to get
certified is an indication that they are serious about their career and are
interested in professional growth.
-Mike Chabot
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
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Author: Larry Lyons
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264317
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Given that most universities do not require their instructors or professors to
have any skills at teaching, I'm not surprised that he would have such an
opinion. A well designed multiple choice test cannot be passed by random
selection. Depending on the structure, even getting 25% using random responses
would be surprising.
regards,
larry
Author: Mike Chabot
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264303
You seem to be viewing Brainbench certs unfavorably because you can
look up answers in the manual as you take the test. The Brainbench
tests are intended to be open-book and the Adobe test is intended to
be closed-book. So the questions you see on a Brainbench test are much
harder than the questions on the Adobe test. Many of the questions
cannot be answered without looking up the answer. That is what you are
being tested on. Can you look up the correct answer or solve the
problem within two minutes. It is not testing how well you can
memorize a study guide.
I would place a higher value on a vendor cert, but I would look
favorably on a Brainbench cert as well. The fact that someone took the
time to get certified is an indication that they are serious about
their career and are interested in professional growth.
-Mike Chabot
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Austin, Roger D.
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264297
> Original Message
> > I doubt you would be chosen just because you have a cert, we always
test
> > developers who come for interview and we have turned away many
certified
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
factor.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
In many cases, you wouldn't get past the HR department without a
certification. Many corporations have standard ways of weeding out
applicants. One way is to put a certification in the specifications
for the position.
The HR staff review all the applications and many are tossed just
as a first run through the paperwork. Hiring managers may never even
see your resume if you don't have a certification.
I agree completely with the idea is about breaking ties. Anything
that gives you the edge with other equal applicants is positive
whether it is the way you handle the interview or your professional
certifications.
I have always said that I thought that certifications in IT were
BS. At one time as a manager, I assumed someone who got a certification
had to since they didn't have any skills or experience. I have to admit
now (after 20 years of experience) that a youngster with little
experience and a certification may make the cut out of HR when I
wouldn't no matter my skill level or experience.
All being equal, I now encourage workers to get more training and
get their certifications. Building a resume is important and continuous.
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264282
> Not really a marker.. As going by that surely you should also
> require them to be Microsoft certified etc..
Why should CF developers be Microsoft certified?
> As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one
> multiple choice still? where the answer is right in front of
> you on every Q! As my old Physics teacher used to say,
> multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a stick could
> get a pass by stroking the page randomly...
Your old physics teacher could stand to brush up on instructional design.
Well-written multiple choice exams will not typically be passed by a monkey
with a stick.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: Nicholas M Tunney
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264274
These are client requests, not our own, and many clients do request
certifications. I do feel that the CF certification should be building
pieces of architecture, but I'm sure it isn't up to me ;). Regardless,
all internal hires are put through a coding test.
Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264270
Not really a marker.. As going by that surely you should also require them
to be Microsoft certified etc..
As for looking up the answer... As noted isn't the Adobe one multiple choice
still? where the answer is right in front of you on every Q! As my old
Physics teacher used to say, multiple choice is not a test.. a monkey with a
stick could get a pass by stroking the page randomly...
:-)
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In the staffing portion of my company, we do not pay any attention to
Brainbench certs. You can look every answer up as you take the test.
Many of our clients require the developers we send out to be CF
certified by Adobe. Just my 2c.
Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote:
> Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the
> reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are
> ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen
in
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
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Author: Nicholas M Tunney
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264269
In the staffing portion of my company, we do not pay any attention to
Brainbench certs. You can look every answer up as you take the test.
Many of our clients require the developers we send out to be CF
certified by Adobe. Just my 2c.
Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264259
Yeah, the agencies do fluff CV up a little.. We had a few "advanced"
contractors who didn't even know whan an array or structure was.
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If you email me offline I'll send you a copy.
Russ
Russ,
You want to share that test? We've had many times where we needed to hire a
contractor and when they got here even though they interviewed well and had
good cf resumes, the didn't know the even the simple things.
It seems a lot of "temp agencies" (for lack of a better term) coach their
contractors on how to bs their way in.
Steve
I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding
questions, like
1. write a simple web service
2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables
3. what is the error in the following code
And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a
good
score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not
certified,
and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of
prior
experience.
Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do
see
jobs asking for it now and then.
Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you
may
as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of
getting
a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the
cert or
you may be disapointed.
Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if
someone
has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who
doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I
would
imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and
don't know better.
Russ
[mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com]
Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Certification
Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the
reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are
ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen
in
the UK.
I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?!
The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of
the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please
note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or
the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you
have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or
call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within
this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
>Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
>
>
>
This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months.
Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is
useless
are those who boast that they don't have it?
just a thought.
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264258
If you email me offline I'll send you a copy.
Russ
Russ,
You want to share that test? We've had many times where we needed to hire a
contractor and when they got here even though they interviewed well and had
good cf resumes, the didn't know the even the simple things.
It seems a lot of "temp agencies" (for lack of a better term) coach their
contractors on how to bs their way in.
Steve
I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding
questions, like
1. write a simple web service
2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables
3. what is the error in the following code
And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a
good
score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not
certified,
and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of
prior
experience.
Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do
see
jobs asking for it now and then.
Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you
may
as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of
getting
a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the
cert or
you may be disapointed.
Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if
someone
has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who
doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I
would
imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and
don't know better.
Russ
[mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com]
Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Certification
Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the
reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are
ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen
in
the UK.
I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?!
The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of
the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please
note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or
the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you
have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or
call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within
this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
>Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
>
>
>
This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months.
Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is
useless
are those who boast that they don't have it?
just a thought.
Author: DURETTE, STEVEN J \(ASI-AIT\)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264257
Russ,
You want to share that test? We've had many times where we needed to
hire a contractor and when they got here even though they interviewed
well and had good cf resumes, the didn't know the even the simple
things.
It seems a lot of "temp agencies" (for lack of a better term) coach
their contractors on how to bs their way in.
Steve
I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding
questions, like
1. write a simple web service
2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables
3. what is the error in the following code
And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a
good
score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not
certified,
and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of
prior
experience.
Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do
see
jobs asking for it now and then.
Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you
may
as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of
getting
a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the
cert or
you may be disapointed.
Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if
someone
has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who
doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I
would
imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and
don't know better.
Russ
[mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com]
Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Certification
Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the
reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are
ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen
in
the UK.
I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?!
The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of
the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please
note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or
the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you
have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or
call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within
this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
>Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
>
>
>
This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months.
Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is
useless
are those who boast that they don't have it?
just a thought.
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264256
I have an online test I give candidates that has real world coding
questions, like
1. write a simple web service
2. write some SQL that does an inner join between the following tables
3. what is the error in the following code
And I can say that I have never once had someone who is certified get a good
score. The best scores I have had were from people who were not certified,
and were generally self taught and often didn't have a great deal of prior
experience.
Although to be fair, some employers do still put some merit on it, I do see
jobs asking for it now and then.
Its cheap enough to get certified, and it wont do you any harm, so you may
as well do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking your chances of getting
a great job with a higher salary will drastically improve having the cert or
you may be disapointed.
Eventually companies do figure out that it makes no difference if someone
has a cert, it generally doesn't make them any better then someone who
doesn't have it and doesn't help their interview process either, so I would
imagine they only ask for certs the first time they are interviewing and
don't know better.
Russ
[mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com]
Sent: 17 December 2006 07:38
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Certification
Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the
reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are
ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in
the UK.
I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?!
The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
>Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
>
>
>
This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months.
Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless
are those who boast that they don't have it?
just a thought.
Author: James Holmes
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264255
I've been too busy with CF work to notice (or to get a Certification).
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264254
Not really, as the fact they are worthless (not useless) is no doubt the
reason they do not take them. In the professional world whether you are
ColdFusion certified or not means nada - certainly from what I have seen in
the UK.
I mean, isn't it mostly multiple choice still?!
The Brainbench is good as well a Snake noted. Perhaps better.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
>Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
>
>
>
This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months.
Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless
are those who boast that they don't have it?
just a thought.
Author: Larry Lyons
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264251
>Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
>
>
>
This topic come up on a regular basis, almost once every 2 or 3 months.
Ever notice that generally those who say the CFMX certification is useless are
those who boast that they don't have it?
just a
thought.
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264243
If you just want a cert to put on your CV to show off to employers and
bolster your ego try www.brainbench.com
Their CF certification is about the same, and your score will be
listed/ranked as well, so you can even boast about your ranking if you like.
--
Russ Michaels
In the top 3 coldfusion developers in the UK according to brainbench.com :-)
[mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com]
Sent: 16 December 2006 08:08
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Certification
I think that is the point. It really doesn't mean a whole lot, and it should
not be an indicator of how much you know (or do not), as Snake noted, it is
not exactly a test, not like we took at Uni! I think if you took it now you
would pass no worries.
If I were were you, I would save your money.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
To be honest, I am looking at certification mainly because it's a nice easy
way of showing you aren't just mentioning it on your CV, but you do have at
least a decent understanding of the topic. Something that people (esp
contractors) my find quite useful to have.
Neil
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264241
I think that is the point. It really doesn't mean a whole lot, and it should
not be an indicator of how much you know (or do not), as Snake noted, it is
not exactly a test, not like we took at Uni! I think if you took it now you
would pass no worries.
If I were were you, I would save your money.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
To be honest, I am looking at certification mainly because it's a nice easy
way of showing you aren't just mentioning it on your CV, but you do have at
least a decent understanding of the topic. Something that people (esp
contractors) my find quite useful to have.
Neil
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Doug Bezona
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264232
>But that's really what the exam is, it tests >how many tags and functions
you
>know. There is very little else to it.
Exactly, which is why it's not an ideal measure of a developer's ability.
The process of studying for one can be of some benefit though, if only to get a
little exposure to features you might otherwise not have encountered.
Author: Eric Roberts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264231
Do you use every feature of ColdFusion every single day? A lot of times it
can point out things that you don't normally use or didn't realize existed
and may help you come up with new ways of doing things. That would make it
part of constantly learning...
Eric
> Certification is a foundation to the overall process of being a developer.
> I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn what is new about
> each revision of ColdFusion.
I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features
then perhaps they aren't a very good developer.
A developer should be learning constantly everyday.
Cheers
Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com
web: www.electricedgesystems.com
Author: Rick Faircloth
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264230
Hmmm.... how 'bout to learn something new?
Anyone who refuses to open a book to see if there's anything new
they can learn or refuses to participate in a mailing list would have to
feel
like they know everything there is to know about a topic and can't
possibly learn anything new...
Rick
The study guide is basically a "how to pass the certification" book.
You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they
would certainly call that cheating.
I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I
took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass.
If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then
what is the point in doing it?
Russ
Author: Neil Middleton
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264229
To be honest, I am looking at certification mainly because it's a nice easy
way of showing you aren't just mentioning it on your CV, but you do have at
least a decent understanding of the topic. Something that people (esp
contractors) my find quite useful to have.
Neil
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264222
Maybe for some people.
to improve your skills and knowledge perhaps?
The process of preparing for the test forces you to look into all the nooks
and crannies of CF.
I actually think its a good thing to do when you are first learning CF or
maybe have 1 or 2 years under your belt.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Michael Traher
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264220
to improve your skills and knowledge perhaps?
The process of preparing for the test forces you to look into all the nooks
and crannies of CF.
I actually think its a good thing to do when you are first learning CF or
maybe have 1 or 2 years under your belt.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264219
Erm no, haven't you ready any books before ?
By your definition, any textbook would be considered a "how to pass a test"
manual right?
<!----------------//------
andy matthews
web developer
certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc.
andy@icglink.com
615.370.1530 x737
--------------//--------->
The study guide is basically a "how to pass the certification" book.
You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they
would certainly call that cheating.
I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I
took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass.
If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then
what is the point in doing it?
Russ
Author: Andy Matthews
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264217
By your definition, any textbook would be considered a "how to pass a test"
manual right?
<!----------------//------
andy matthews
web developer
certified advanced coldfusion programmer
ICGLink, Inc.
andy@icglink.com
615.370.1530 x737
--------------//--------->
The study guide is basically a "how to pass the certification" book.
You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they
would certainly call that cheating.
I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I
took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass.
If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then
what is the point in doing it?
Russ
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264216
The study guide is basically a "how to pass the certification" book.
You wouldn't be allowed to use such a book to pass your school exams, they
would certainly call that cheating.
I did not do any preperation for my test or use a study guide, in fact I
took it with a hangover, and I still managed to pass.
If you can't pass the test with your existing skills and knowledge, then
what is the point in doing it?
Russ
I would like to make the point that the certs are not worthless - they
answer the question as to your knowledge for 90% of the interviews you will
take...you will rarely get anyone outright questioning your knowledge of CF
if you have the advanced certification. I haven't gotten the 7 cert myself
yet, but I have other things on my resume that fill that gap on my resume in
terms of providing proof of my CF knowledge.
I am also going to take serious issue with the concept that preparing for an
exam is cheating. That is a seriously bone-headed comment. This exam is like
any other exam and warrants preparation if you actually take it
seriously...if you don't take it seriously, then don't prepare take your
chances, but one would ask, why even bother taking it if you don't take the
exam seriously enough to prepare.
P.S. Back when I took the exam for 5 and 6, I used the cfexambuster and it
was excellent.
- Brian Rinaldi
blog - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/blog
CF Open Source List - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/cfopensourcelist
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264214
But that's really what the exam is, it tests how many tags and functions you
know. There is very little else to it.
> I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new
features
> then
> perhaps they aren't a very good developer.
Or perhaps the work they are doing simply doesn't expose them to some of the
more esoteric functions of the language that the exam likely covers.
Being a good developer has less to do with having memorized every last tag,
function and feature, and much more with how that knowledge is applied to
solve a problem. I can always look in the docs to get an answer to a syntax
question, but the docs don't tell me how to use it to solve the particular
problem in front of me - that's where experience and skill comes in.
Exams, however, by their nature, tend to be more about reciting syntax and
knowing the language in a broad fashion, rather than a deep one.
So I can see how brushing up for an exam might give me more than a few "a
ha!" moments as I cover aspects of the language I simply haven't had a real
world use for, and it's useful information, but whether I knew it or not
before hand has little bearing on how well I write software.
Author: loathe
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264208
The CF certification has been around for years and hasn't had THAT bad of a
stigma attached to it.
When I interview I like to see it because it's a general indicator of the
willingness of the candidate to pursue ongoing professional development.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Aaron Rouse
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264191
I have seen where certifications hurt people, not in the CF world but in the
IT world. Back when I was working for a computer parts wholesaler anytime
they were hiring for techs if someone came in saying they had A+
certification that immediately meant they were not going to get hired.
Seeing some of the comments on here about how worthless a CF Certification
is makes me wonder if something similar might happen in the CF world.
Probably not an instant no-hire case but perhaps makes it harder for someone
to get hired because the hiring party might be reluctant in accepting the
person interviewing really does know their stuff.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Charlie Griefer
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264183
> I doubt you would be chosen just because you have a cert, we always test
> developers who come for interview and we have turned away many certified
> ones who knew jack when it can to real written and oral test.
>
> The non certs were the ones who shone.
In a case where everything else is equal, it could be a deciding factor.
Also realize that not all places test their interviewees. Not all
places have what I would consider to be "qualified" folks doing the
interviewing (it's frequently managers...the same managers who love to
chant the mantra of "we don't have time to do it right, we need to get
it done quickly" and then wonder why 2 weeks after its release it
breaks horribly) :)
As I've already said...it may -never- help you. But can you argue
that it could ever hurt to have?
--
Charlie Griefer
================================================
"...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies,
and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch
you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."
Author: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264180
I doubt you would be chosen just because you have a cert, we always test
developers who come for interview and we have turned away many certified
ones who knew jack when it can to real written and oral test.
The non certs were the ones who shone.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
I would like to make the point that the certs are not worthless - they
answer the question as to your knowledge for 90% of the interviews you will
take...you will rarely get anyone outright questioning your knowledge of CF
if you have the advanced certification. I haven't gotten the 7 cert myself
yet, but I have other things on my resume that fill that gap on my resume in
terms of providing proof of my CF knowledge.
I am also going to take serious issue with the concept that preparing for an
exam is cheating. That is a seriously bone-headed comment. This exam is like
any other exam and warrants preparation if you actually take it
seriously...if you don't take it seriously, then don't prepare take your
chances, but one would ask, why even bother taking it if you don't take the
exam seriously enough to prepare.
P.S. Back when I took the exam for 5 and 6, I used the cfexambuster and it
was excellent.
- Brian Rinaldi
blog - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/blog
CF Open Source List - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/cfopensourcelist
Author: Bryan Stevenson
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264178
> Bryan,
> What if it isn't you primary job role?
we are talking about developers...and knowing what they are doing is their job
> What about new people?
What about them....I'd have them read WACK before putting them through an exam
> What about right after a major update release and you want to learn and
> certify on the new version ASAP?
Only matters if you want to certify (which I see no need for other than to line
coporate pockets). I simply read the docs for the new version and learn myself.
I sure don't need an exam for that
See Doug's post....it sums up my thoughts on the subject failry well.
I'm done with this subject...everyone can believe what they want...I'm going to
keep my opinion and get actual work done ;-)
Cheers
Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com
web: www.electricedgesystems.com
Author: Brian Rinaldi
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264175
I would like to make the point that the certs are not worthless - they answer the
question as to your knowledge for 90% of the interviews you will take...you will
rarely get anyone outright questioning your knowledge of CF if you have the
advanced certification. I haven't gotten the 7 cert myself yet, but I have other
things on my resume that fill that gap on my resume in terms of providing proof
of my CF knowledge.
I am also going to take serious issue with the concept that preparing for an exam
is cheating. That is a seriously bone-headed comment. This exam is like any other
exam and warrants preparation if you actually take it seriously...if you don't
take it seriously, then don't prepare take your chances, but one would ask, why
even bother taking it if you don't take the exam seriously enough to prepare.
P.S. Back when I took the exam for 5 and 6, I used the cfexambuster and it was
excellent.
- Brian Rinaldi
blog - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/blog
CF Open Source List - http://www.remotesynthesis.com/cfopensourcelist
Author: Doug Bezona
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264173
> I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new
features
> then
> perhaps they aren't a very good developer.
Or perhaps the work they are doing simply doesn't expose them to some of
the more esoteric functions of the language that the exam likely covers.
Being a good developer has less to do with having memorized every last
tag, function and feature, and much more with how that knowledge is
applied to solve a problem. I can always look in the docs to get an
answer to a syntax question, but the docs don't tell me how to use it to
solve the particular problem in front of me - that's where experience
and skill comes in.
Exams, however, by their nature, tend to be more about reciting syntax
and knowing the language in a broad fashion, rather than a deep one.
So I can see how brushing up for an exam might give me more than a few
"a ha!" moments as I cover aspects of the language I simply haven't had
a real world use for, and it's useful information, but whether I knew it
or not before hand has little bearing on how well I write software.
Author: Teddy Payne
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264171
Bryan,
What if it isn't you primary job role?
What about new people?
What about right after a major update release and you want to learn and
certify on the new version ASAP?
People study in many different ways. Some people do well by doing examples
and others are good book learners.
I have been using CF for 8 years and I got a 84% because I keep mixing up
features from 6, 7 and 8.
A lot of developers get comfortable with what works and do not use the
entire language. I know that I use certain techniques over others because
of peformance reasons or code complexity. The certification forces you to
think of all of the functions you are not used to working with everyday.
I will probably retake the test and get above 84%, but just blanketly saying
what people "should" be doing is entirely subjective.
Cheers,
Teddy
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Bryan Stevenson
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264167
> Certification is a foundation to the overall process of being a developer.
> I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn what is new about each
> revision of ColdFusion.
I'd have to say if a developer needs to take an exam to learn new features then
perhaps they aren't a very good developer.
A developer should be learning constantly everyday.
Cheers
Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com
web: www.electricedgesystems.com
Author: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264163
Hmm, I can't remember ever having to ago my certs for my degrees in fact, I
am not even sure where they are!
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
I strongly agree. The one other thing to point out is that it's just
like college degrees and even high school diplomas. In reality, they're
really not that hard to get. They don't mean you're really all that
smart because I've seen plenty of morons with Masters degrees and even
PhDs but it's the fact that they did it. I work in the gov't world and
they base a lot on the degrees you have. I wouldn't ever claim that a CF
certification will get you paid more, but in the mind of a manager (who
may not know much) it probably looks pretty impressive.
John Burns
> And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not
know
> and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless.
"meaningless" is subjective.
You and me and everyone else on this list know that the cert is
meaningless when it comes to determining who is a "better" programmer.
But let's ask someone who's job hunting...and a particular company has
narrowed their search down to two candidates... our friend and one
other person. EVERYTHING between the two is equal (years of
experience, skill level, education)...except the other person has
their cert, and in this instance, that is enough to tip the scales in
favor of the other person, who gets the job. Ask them if it's
meaningless.
I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't
regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me.
--
Charlie Griefer
================================================
"...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies,
and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must
catch
you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."
Author: Burns, John D
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264162
I strongly agree. The one other thing to point out is that it's just
like college degrees and even high school diplomas. In reality, they're
really not that hard to get. They don't mean you're really all that
smart because I've seen plenty of morons with Masters degrees and even
PhDs but it's the fact that they did it. I work in the gov't world and
they base a lot on the degrees you have. I wouldn't ever claim that a CF
certification will get you paid more, but in the mind of a manager (who
may not know much) it probably looks pretty impressive.
John Burns
> And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not
know
> and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless.
"meaningless" is subjective.
You and me and everyone else on this list know that the cert is
meaningless when it comes to determining who is a "better" programmer.
But let's ask someone who's job hunting...and a particular company has
narrowed their search down to two candidates... our friend and one
other person. EVERYTHING between the two is equal (years of
experience, skill level, education)...except the other person has
their cert, and in this instance, that is enough to tip the scales in
favor of the other person, who gets the job. Ask them if it's
meaningless.
I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't
regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me.
--
Charlie Griefer
================================================
"...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies,
and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must
catch
you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."
Author: Charlie Griefer
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264161
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Nuh-uh. It's in a frame :P (and quite nicely covers a piece of the
wall that could use some sanding and painting. hey...i guess it -has-
helped me) :)
--
Charlie Griefer
================================================
"...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies,
and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch
you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."
Author: Andy Matthews
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264160
Nah...
The paper's too thick.
<!----------------//------
andy matthews
web developer
certified advanced coldfusion programmer
ICGLink, Inc.
andy@icglink.com
615.370.1530 x737
--------------//--------->
> I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't
> regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me.
> --
> Charlie Griefer
You could get a paper cut...
Author: Steve Brownlee
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264158
<chuckle>
> I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't
> regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me.
> --
> Charlie Griefer
You could get a paper cut...
Author: Teddy Payne
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264159
Certification is a foundation to the overall process of being a developer.
I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn what is new about each
revision of ColdFusion.
I assisted in a study group to help people certify and everyone who
regularly attended benefited from the material. We use Ben's certification
as guidance, but advocated the CF Exam buster.
Years of ColdFusion usage with multiple projects will determine a well
rounded developer or problem solver.
I would recommend that if you become F certified, that you follow up with
another certification that will assist your CF knowledge. Examples would be
database centric certifications or perhaps the entry level Java
certification.
Teddy
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Ray Champagne
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264157
> I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't
> regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me.
> --
> Charlie Griefer
You could get a paper cut...
Author: Charlie Griefer
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264156
> And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not know
> and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless.
"meaningless" is subjective.
You and me and everyone else on this list know that the cert is
meaningless when it comes to determining who is a "better" programmer.
But let's ask someone who's job hunting...and a particular company has
narrowed their search down to two candidates... our friend and one
other person. EVERYTHING between the two is equal (years of
experience, skill level, education)...except the other person has
their cert, and in this instance, that is enough to tip the scales in
favor of the other person, who gets the job. Ask them if it's
meaningless.
I've got my cert in MX 6 and MX 7. It's never helped me. But I don't
regret having it for one simple fact. It will NEVER hurt me.
--
Charlie Griefer
================================================
"...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies,
and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch
you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."
Author: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264155
And indeed, as you said they do/can show you what you did and do not know
and are a great teaching tool but the actual cert is meaningless.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
What are you talking about?!?!??!?! The ladies love the certification :)
Every time I walk into a bar it's always like "Ooooh, tell me again how
CFHttp works? It's so exciting when you talk about parsing CSV files at
a given URL". On really long, I opt not to even wear my "Ask Me About My
CF Cert" T-shirt cause I just don't want to have to deal with the
groupies.
Joking aside though, the Book and the software are most excellent. Even
if you are not caring so much about the cert, the book and practice
tests really go a LONG way in pointing out how much you don't realize
that you don't know about CF.
......................
Ben Nadel
Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer
www.bennadel.com
Need ColdFusion Help?
www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/
[mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:54 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Certification
Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of
the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s)
please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this
communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please
return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.
The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily
those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
Make sure you know how to write CFML.
You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study
guide.
I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is
printed on. I know several people who got "Advanced ColdFusion
developers"
certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.
Russ
Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX
certification exams?
--
Neil Middleton
Visit feed-squirrel.com
Author: Doug Bezona
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264153
> Lol, I would seriously have to question the kinda of bars you
frequent...
> :)
I think I've been to that bar *shudder*
Author: Aaron Rouse
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264152
I actually had the lack of a CF certification held strongly against me about
2-3 years ago in a job interview. Whether the piece of paper means
something or not, I doubt it hurts to have when someone also has many years
of experience with CF. With that said though, I still have yet to get
around to getting one.
>
> Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
>
>
> --
Aaron Rouse
http://www.happyhacker.com/
Author: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264151
Lol, I would seriously have to question the kinda of bars you frequent... :)
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
What are you talking about?!?!??!?! The ladies love the certification :)
Every time I walk into a bar it's always like "Ooooh, tell me again how
CFHttp works? It's so exciting when you talk about parsing CSV files at
a given URL". On really long, I opt not to even wear my "Ask Me About My
CF Cert" T-shirt cause I just don't want to have to deal with the
groupies.
Joking aside though, the Book and the software are most excellent. Even
if you are not caring so much about the cert, the book and practice
tests really go a LONG way in pointing out how much you don't realize
that you don't know about CF.
......................
Ben Nadel
Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer
www.bennadel.com
Need ColdFusion Help?
www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/
[mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:54 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Certification
Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of
the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s)
please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this
communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please
return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.
The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily
those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
Make sure you know how to write CFML.
You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study
guide.
I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is
printed on. I know several people who got "Advanced ColdFusion
developers"
certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.
Russ
Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX
certification exams?
--
Neil Middleton
Visit feed-squirrel.com
Author: Ben Nadel
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264148
What are you talking about?!?!??!?! The ladies love the certification :)
Every time I walk into a bar it's always like "Ooooh, tell me again how
CFHttp works? It's so exciting when you talk about parsing CSV files at
a given URL". On really long, I opt not to even wear my "Ask Me About My
CF Cert" T-shirt cause I just don't want to have to deal with the
groupies.
Joking aside though, the Book and the software are most excellent. Even
if you are not caring so much about the cert, the book and practice
tests really go a LONG way in pointing out how much you don't realize
that you don't know about CF.
.....................
Ben Nadel
Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer
www.bennadel.com
Need ColdFusion Help?
www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/
[mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo@csd.reedexpo.com]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:54 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Certification
Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of
the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s)
please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this
communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please
return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.
The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily
those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
Make sure you know how to write CFML.
You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study
guide.
I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is
printed on. I know several people who got "Advanced ColdFusion
developers"
certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.
Russ
Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX
certification exams?
--
Neil Middleton
Visit feed-squirrel.com
Author: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264144
Agreed, the certs are pretty much worthless in the real world.
"This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the
intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this
communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions."
Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com
Make sure you know how to write CFML.
You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide.
I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed
on. I know several people who got "Advanced ColdFusion developers"
certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.
Russ
Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX
certification exams?
--
Neil Middleton
Visit feed-squirrel.com
Author: Snake
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264141
Make sure you know how to write CFML.
You could cheat like most people do and use the certification study guide.
I personally don't think the certification is worth the paper it is printed
on. I know several people who got "Advanced ColdFusion developers"
certifications, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.
Russ
Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX
certification exams?
--
Neil Middleton
Visit feed-squirrel.com
Author: Andy Matthews
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264129
I'll second the CFMX Exam Buster software. It's actually much harder than
the actual test.
<!----------------//------
andy matthews
web developer
certified advanced coldfusion programmer
ICGLink, Inc.
andy@icglink.com
615.370.1530 x737
--------------//--------->
Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX
certification exams?
--
Neil Middleton
Visit feed-squirrel.com
Author: Andy Allan
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264125
I'll second that. Excellent bit of software.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Charlie Griefer
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264124
> Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX
> certification exams?
forta's cfmx exam guide book
centrasoft's cf exam buster software
only 2 tools you'll need.
--
Charlie Griefer
================================================
"...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies,
and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch
you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."
Author: Ray Champagne
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264123
Go to http://www.centrasoft.com/cfmxexambusterorderinfo.cfm.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Neil Middleton
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:49434#264121
Does anyone have any opinions on the best ways to prepare for the CFMX
certification exams?
--
Neil Middleton
Visit feed-squirrel.com
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May 24, 2012
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