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Trying to understand the ColdFusion 8 - Net integration
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#290080
> Yes, agreed. I guess I was responding to your comment that,
> "I would be happy to tell your boss that he should put down
> the crack pipe if he thinks it's a good idea to switch from
> CF to .NET."
You should reread the entire paragraph from my original email containing the
sentence above. Taking statements out of context doesn't facilitate a useful
discussion. Here's what the original poster wrote to which I was responding:
"My boss, who is a director of Marketing has talked about switching to .Net
because it what some Web agencies are saying we should be using."
Does that sound like a good business justification to you? For migrating
from anything to anything else? Because "some Web agencies" like it better?
> While that may play well for laughs in this forum, it's not very
> sound technical or business advice. I was trying to make the point
> that sometimes it *is* a good idea to switch from CF to .NET
> (regardless of whether or not you choose to use BlueDragon to help
> make the switch). Dismissing anyone who considers making such a
> switch as being "on crack" is silly.
Again, context matters. If the original poster had written something like
this:
"My boss has talked about switching to .NET because (we'd save significant
amounts of money|we have more .NET programmers available|we use Microsoft
infrastructure for everything else|etc)."
then, yes, my dismissal would have been silly, and I wouldn't have made it
in the first place. Of course, as you well know, that's not what happened,
and I stand by my assertion that the original poster's boss is about to make
a bad business decision based on his ignorance and gullibility.
I like .NET, actually. Not as much as CF, but I wouldn't recommend that
anyone migrate from one to the other just because I prefer one to the other.
You have a fine product. You don't need to be so defensive.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: Vince Bonfanti
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#290077
Dave Watts wrote:
>
>There is,
>however, a problem with people making uninformed decisions based on what
>these "web agencies" recommend without any sort of ROI evaluation.
>
Yes, agreed. I guess I was responding to your comment that, "I would be happy to
tell your boss that he should put down the crack pipe if he thinks it's a good
idea to switch from CF to .NET."
While that may play well for laughs in this forum, it's not very sound technical
or business advice. I was trying to make the point that sometimes it *is* a good
idea to switch from CF to .NET (regardless of whether or not you choose to use
BlueDragon to help make the switch). Dismissing anyone who considers making such
a switch as being "on crack" is silly.
To Matt Williams: I used the phrase "some people" to indicate that I realize the
statements I made in favor of switching from CF to .NET aren't true for "all
people." Sometime it's a valid decision to stay with CF, and sometimes it's a
valid decision to switch to .NET (or to Java/JSP/J2EE, or to PHP). I would never
argue that it's the right decision for everyone in all situations to switch from
CF to .NET, but for some people it is. That was my point.
Author: Matt Williams
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#290071
Come on Vince. "Some people" is a terrible way to make an argument.
Some people survive suicide attempts.
Some people smoke a pack of cigarettes a day and live to be 100.
For the cost issue, if that is all it boils down to, why not go with
all open-source/free? Plenty of job seekers there too.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
--
Matt Williams
"It's the question that drives us."
Author: Tom Chiverton
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#290045
On Tuesday 02 Oct 2007, vince@newatlanta.com wrote:
> 1. Licensing costs. Some people balk at paying $7500 per CPU pair for CF
> Enterprise when ASP.NET is included in Windows at no cost.
ASP has less features than CF8. It depends what you use. And of course, if you
use CF you can avoid the Microsoft O/S tax.
> 2. Performance and realiability. Some people find they get better
> performance and realiability of their web applications running .NET rather
> than CF.
I've never been convinced by this. I think this happens when people switch
because they're rewriting the app from scratch, removing all the cruft and
sticky plaster.
> 3. Developer tools. Some people find that the tools available for ASP.NET
> development--especially Visual Studio--are superior to tools available for
> CF development.
This is probably true. CFEclipse is good, but it's not Flex Builder.
> 4. Developer availability. Some people find it's easier to hire trained,
> experienced ASP.NET developers than it is to find and hire trained,
> experienced CF developers.
I agree.
We can't seem to get hold of a decent extra one for love or money !
> I realize I have to tread carefully here, so again, I'm not advocating that
> anyone should switch from CF to .NET, but am disputing Dave's statement
> that, "it's almost never a good idea to switch from CF to .NET"
I'd dispute the unqualified version too.
--
Tom Chiverton
Helping to completely brand viral solutions
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com
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Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#289962
> I realize I have to tread carefully here ...
Not on my account!
> Since I'm sure to be accused of "just angling for your money"
> anyway, let me point out that BlueDragon.NET can be very
> effective in helping you migrate from CF to .NET while
> preserving your investment in CFML code ...
Well, first, you ARE angling for our money! That's your job! And there's
nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with "web agencies"
telling their clients, or potential clients, that they should use the
platform preferred by said web agencies. Everyone's gotta eat. There is,
however, a problem with people making uninformed decisions based on what
these "web agencies" recommend without any sort of ROI evaluation.
That said, your product is not really what I was talking about. I'm
constantly hearing people talk about moving from platform X to platform Y,
and having to rebuild their applications from scratch accordingly. And, in
the vast majority of cases, that's just stupid. It's a bad business
decision.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
For example, there was an article in one of the trade mags a while ago about
a company that ported their app from CF to .NET, and then to Java. Now
that's just all kinds of dumb.
To the extent that your product allows people to preserve their investment
in their application code, that's a good thing. To the extent that people
have to modify their code when migrating from CF7 to BD.NET (or to CF8),
that's a significant cost that people often overlook.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: Charlie Griefer
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#289957
> I realize I have to tread carefully here, so again, I'm not advocating that
anyone should switch from CF to .NET, but am disputing Dave's statement that,
"it's almost never a good idea to switch from CF to .NET" by pointing out that
there are many organizations for whom it has in fact been a very good idea, and
listing some of the reasons why.
Dave's statement was actually "it's almost never a good idea to switch
from CF to .NET, OR VICE-VERSA" (emphasis mine).
He further qualifies the statement with:
"if you have any significant investment in application code."
Just pointing out that in reality what he said was very, very
different than just saying, "it's almost never a good idea to switch
from CF to .NET", which you pulled out of context.
--
Charlie Griefer
================================================
"...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies,
and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch
you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be
destroyed."
Author: Vince Bonfanti
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#289953
Dave Watts wrote:
>
>For what it's worth, it's almost never a good idea to switch from CF to
>.NET, or vice-versa, if you have any significant investment in application
>code. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just angling for your money.
>
Hmmm...there are many good reasons to stay with CF rather than switching to .NET,
but there are also many good reasons to switch from CF to .NET, as we've seen
many companies do over the past few years (starting with MySpace.com). I'm not
advocating that anyone *should* make that switch, but here are some of the
reasons we've heard from people who have made the switch (not necessarily in any
particular order):
1. Licensing costs. Some people balk at paying $7500 per CPU pair for CF
Enterprise when ASP.NET is included in Windows at no cost. I understand that CF
Standard is $1300 per server, and that for a small number of servers even the
$7500 per 2-CPU cost can be small compared to overall project costs. But, for
someone with dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of servers, the CF license costs
can become a real obstacle.
2. Performance and realiability. Some people find they get better performance
and realiability of their web applications running .NET rather than CF.
3. Developer tools. Some people find that the tools available for ASP.NET
development--especially Visual Studio--are superior to tools available for CF
development.
4. Developer availability. Some people find it's easier to hire trained,
experienced ASP.NET developers than it is to find and hire trained, experienced
CF developers.
I realize I have to tread carefully here, so again, I'm not advocating that
anyone should switch from CF to .NET, but am disputing Dave's statement that,
"it's almost never a good idea to switch from CF to .NET" by pointing out that
there are many organizations for whom it has in fact been a very good idea, and
listing some of the reasons why.
Since I'm sure to be accused of "just angling for your money" anyway, let me
point out that BlueDragon.NET can be very effective in helping you migrate from
CF to .NET while preserving your investment in CFML code:
http://blog.newatlanta.com/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=9DFBA97F-124C-10CB-361E10851B5FAB32
Cheers,
Vince Bonfanti
New Atlanta Communications, LLC
http://www.newatlanta.com
Author: Tom Chiverton
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#289928
On Tuesday 02 Oct 2007, dwatts@figleaf.com wrote:
> It sounds like you live in a
> Dilbert strip, or, alternatively, hell.
Damn, I wish I'd said that :-)
--
Tom Chiverton
Helping to vitalistically initiate turn-key e-services
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com
****************************************************
This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.
Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales
under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's
Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for
inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to
Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors
Regulation Authority.
CONFIDENTIALITY
This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be
confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not
read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any
person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.
If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells
LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008.
For more information about Halliwells LLP visit
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Author: Bruce Sorge
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#289926
I have to agree with you on this Dave. When I was working for in Dallas,
we had been using CF for many years. Suddenly, out of the blue they
(upper management prodded by a lower manager who had all Microsoft
programmers and NO CF programmers on his team, and they were in charge
of the new physicians portal) decided that we need to switch to .NET. So
not only did we have thousands of man hours invested in the CF stuff,
but us CF'ers were forced to learn .NET. Now I have nothing against
learning another language, and in fact since they were willing to let me
and the others continue working there and learn .NET while getting paid,
I did not mind too much. But I look back on this and I wonder why they
did that. Everything that the portal does now could have been done in .CF.
Many of the CF apps I wrote I personally converted to .NET. I got a
first hand look at how much overhead is involved in creating .NET apps
as opposed to CF. Once my .NET skills were up to speed, it still took me
almost twice as long to re-write the apps in .NET than when I originally
did in CF.
Bruce
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: coldfusion.developer
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#289923
Dave, I loved your reply. Made me crack up and almost fall off
my chair. The comment about the crack pipe and being in a Dilbert
comic strip was hilarious.
Thanks everyone for your input and feedback.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#289910
> All, I'm just starting to learn .Net. I'm trying to grasp
> the concept of what .Net assemblies are. Would it be fair to
> say that they are like CFCs? I'm trying to get a comparible
> CF analogy. I'm assuming you can't access to lines of logic
> within an .Net Web page, but that these .Net assemblies are
> compiled dlls or something. I'm trying to understand exactly
> what I can grab from a .Net application.
There's a great, simple example right here that should make things clear:
http://tutorial11.learncf.com/
> A layman's explanation would be so appreciated. My boss, who
> is a director of Marketing has talked about switching to .Net
> because it what some Web agencies are saying we should be using.
Are these web agencies going to do your development for you? I suppose they
would probably like to.
Your director of marketing makes technical decisions about infrastructure?
Based on what "some web agencies" tell him? It sounds like you live in a
Dilbert strip, or, alternatively, hell. As a partner at a "web agency"
myself (whatever that is exactly) I would be happy to tell your boss that he
should put down the crack pipe if he thinks it's a good idea to switch from
CF to .NET.
For what it's worth, it's almost never a good idea to switch from CF to
.NET, or vice-versa, if you have any significant investment in application
code. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just angling for your money.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: Dawson, Michael
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#289909
Plus, as I recently learned, you don't have to register the DLL with the
operating system. You can point CF8 to the DLL, itself, and CF will
find it. This eliminates the step of having to register DLLs when
setting up new servers or when updating the DLLs, themselves.
M!ke
On Tuesday 02 Oct 2007, coldfusion.developer@att.net wrote:
> All, I'm just starting to learn .Net. I'm trying to grasp the concept
> of what .Net assemblies are. Would it be fair to say that they are
like CFCs?
AFAICT it's a new name for 'DLL'.
> A layman's explanation would be so appreciated. My boss, who is a
> director of Marketing has talked about switching to .Net because it
> what some Web agencies are saying we should be using.
Well, firstly, marketing thought it up, so it should carry no technical
weight.
Secondly, obviously you have no .Net knowledge, so it'll take much
longer to get anything done even after you've spent all the time and
money getting trained up.
Thirdly, .Net is never always the right answer, just as CFML is never
always the right answer. What do these 'Web agencies' do (or thing you
do) that makes them think .Net must be the One True Way ?
--
Tom Chiverton
Helping to globally deliver transparent communities
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com
Author: Tom Chiverton
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#289908
On Tuesday 02 Oct 2007, coldfusion.developer@att.net wrote:
> All, I'm just starting to learn .Net. I'm trying to grasp the concept of
> what .Net assemblies are. Would it be fair to say that they are like CFCs?
AFAICT it's a new name for 'DLL'.
> A layman's explanation would be so appreciated. My boss, who is a director
> of Marketing has talked about switching to .Net because it what some Web
> agencies are saying we should be using.
Well, firstly, marketing thought it up, so it should carry no technical
weight.
Secondly, obviously you have no .Net knowledge, so it'll take much longer to
get anything done even after you've spent all the time and money getting
trained up.
Thirdly, .Net is never always the right answer, just as CFML is never always
the right answer. What do these 'Web agencies' do (or thing you do) that
makes them think .Net must be the One True Way ?
--
Tom Chiverton
Helping to globally deliver transparent communities
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com
****************************************************
This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.
Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales
under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's
Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for
inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to
Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors
Regulation Authority.
CONFIDENTIALITY
This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be
confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not
read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any
person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.
If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells
LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008.
For more information about Halliwells LLP visit
www.halliwells.com.
Author: coldfusion.developer
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:53671#289903
All, I'm just starting to learn .Net. I'm trying to grasp the concept of what
.Net assemblies
are. Would it be fair to say that they are like CFCs? I'm trying to get a
comparible CF
analogy. I'm assuming you can't access to lines of logic within an .Net Web page,
but that
these .Net assemblies are compiled dlls or something. I'm trying to understand
exactly what
I can grab from a .Net application.
A layman's explanation would be so appreciated. My boss, who is a director of
Marketing
has talked about switching to .Net because it what some Web agencies are saying
we should
be using.
http://www.brooks-bilson.com/blogs/rob/index.cfm/2006/10/24/Adobe-MAX-2006-Session--ColdFusion-Net-Integration
Thanks
D
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June 18, 2013
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