Adobe ColdFusion IDE survey

In case no one is reading RSS these days, http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=321RrO9_2fWaP_2bdYMnmF9CuQ_3d_3d -- Tom Chiverton Helping to vitalistically leverage sexy products on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Hopefully this won't be yet another ColdFusion Studio "now you see it, now you don't."  I don't understand why they don't just throw some money at CFEclipse or fix issues inside of DW.  All I see this doing is messing up the Adobe Future-CS3 bundles they have. On Jan 7, 2008 11:36 AM, Tom Chiverton <tom.chiverton@halliwells.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Todd, You are jumping to conclusions. No one has said that we'll not do what you are suggestions. Actually, at this point no one has said anything at all, other than A) a CF IDE ranks as one of the top feature requests, B) we'd like more input from the community to help drove decision making.  That's it - for now. --- Ben Hopefully this won't be yet another ColdFusion Studio "now you see it, now you don't."  I don't understand why they don't just throw some money at CFEclipse or fix issues inside of DW.  All I see this doing is messing up the Adobe Future-CS3 bundles they have. On Jan 7, 2008 11:36 AM, Tom Chiverton <tom.chiverton@halliwells.com> wrote: > In case no one is reading RSS these days, > > http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna/controller.cfm?handler=PostHandler&action =click&postId=239231&nextPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edcooper%2Eorg%2Fblog%2Fclie nt%2Findex%2Ecfm%3Fmode%3Dentry%26entry%3D54F8B07D%2D4E22%2D1671%2D5D4901CA2 8DF6919 > -- > Tom Chiverton > Helping to vitalistically leverage sexy products > on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com >

I am jumping to conclusions because it's part of feedback, even if it is negative.  Customer Perception, isn't it?  I doubt I'm going to be the only one to jump to the conclusions today or take a look at that survey and say, "Duh, we asked for all this years ago." I think a more useful survey would have been?  Have you used HomeSite+/CFStudio? Yes/no.  Have you used DW?  Yes/no If yes, what features did you like from it? etc.  For example, I miss having 2 file explorers like I did in HS+/CF Studio, but it's not a "Must have."  I'll be sure to note that in my survey when I think it through a little more. On Jan 7, 2008 11:50 AM, Ben Forta <ben@forta.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

@Todd, I think having 2 file explorers IS a must have. Once you have been doing that for years, you immediately feel the negative impact that a single file tree has on the development process. Its like walking on one of those flat conveyer belt at the airport and then you step onto the regular floor and everything feels like it slows down. -Ben ..................... Ben Nadel Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer www.bennadel.com Need ColdFusion Help? www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/ I am jumping to conclusions because it's part of feedback, even if it is negative.  Customer Perception, isn't it?  I doubt I'm going to be the only one to jump to the conclusions today or take a look at that survey and say, "Duh, we asked for all this years ago." I think a more useful survey would have been?  Have you used HomeSite+/CFStudio? Yes/no.  Have you used DW?  Yes/no If yes, what HomeSite+features did you like from it? etc.  For example, I miss having 2 file explorers like I did in HS+/CF Studio, but it's not a "Must have."  I'll be sure to note that in my survey when I think it through a little more. On Jan 7, 2008 11:50 AM, Ben Forta <ben@forta.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Cool, I'm glad I brought it up to remind folks then.  Be sure to note that in the survey if it's that important to you. ~Todd On Jan 7, 2008 12:06 PM, Ben Nadel <Ben@nylontechnology.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I think having 2 file explorers IS a must have. You mean a local file view, and a remote file view ? -- Tom Chiverton Helping to elementarily maximize intuitive designs on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

> I think a more useful survey would have been?  Have you used > HomeSite+/CFStudio? Yes/no.  Have you used DW?  Yes/no If yes, what "If yes, how long ago" For me, we're talking 5 years or more. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to synergistically cluster synergistic e-tailers on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Ben, When looking at the survey, one of the important things was how much would you pay. The one thing that I would like to add to that is I selected free, only because I couldn't add any reason behind that. My reasoning is this, Coldfusion is loosing ground in areas that I will not debate here. However my logic is this, I would love to see Coldfusion itself 100% free and the IDE I would pay for as long as it supported what I needed to do my job. So if Adobe was to take on CFEclipse, and throw support at it, I am prepared to pay for that. I guess to take on .Net and others I would like to see something that is as comparable to those models. Anyway I know I can dream :-) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Hey, free is a valid option, which is why it is listed there! :-) --- Ben Ben, When looking at the survey, one of the important things was how much would you pay. The one thing that I would like to add to that is I selected free, only because I couldn't add any reason behind that. My reasoning is this, Coldfusion is loosing ground in areas that I will not debate here. However my logic is this, I would love to see Coldfusion itself 100% free and the IDE I would pay for as long as it supported what I needed to do my job. So if Adobe was to take on CFEclipse, and throw support at it, I am prepared to pay for that. I guess to take on .Net and others I would like to see something that is as comparable to those models. Anyway I know I can dream :-) > Todd, > > You are jumping to conclusions. No one has said that we'll not do what you > are suggestions. Actually, at this point no one has said anything at all, > other than A) a CF IDE ranks as one of the top feature requests, B) we'd > like more input from the community to help drove decision making.  That's it ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna/controller.cfm?handler=PostHandler&action > =click&postId=239231&nextPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edcooper%2Eorg%2Fblog%2Fclie > nt%2Findex%2Ecfm%3Fmode%3Dentry%26entry%3D54F8B07D%2D4E22%2D1671%2D5D4901CA2 ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

lol, Ben I think you should read that better, I was asking for Coldfusion itself to be free. And I would pay for the IDE :-) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Ah, ok. Well, that is actually a frequently discussed option too! :-) --- Ben lol, Ben I think you should read that better, I was asking for Coldfusion itself to be free. And I would pay for the IDE :-) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- you > > are suggestions. Actually, at this point no one has said anything at all, > > other than A) a CF IDE ranks as one of the top feature requests, B) we'd > > like more input from the community to help drove decision making. That's ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- now > > you don't."  I don't understand why they don't just throw some money at > > CFEclipse or fix issues inside of DW.  All I see this doing is messing up ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna/controller.cfm?handler=PostHandler&action > > > =click&postId=239231&nextPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edcooper%2Eorg%2Fblog%2Fclie > > > nt%2Findex%2Ecfm%3Fmode%3Dentry%26entry%3D54F8B07D%2D4E22%2D1671%2D5D4901CA2 ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Yeah, well like I said I know I can dream... > Ah, ok. Well, that is actually a frequently discussed option too! :-) > > --- Ben

>the consensus seemed to be that a CF IDE needs to either be Eclipse based >(aligned well with Flex Builder and more) or Dreamweaver based (or possibly both) My vote is Eclipse. I never liked DW and used CFS from it's start but quickly switched to CFEclipse when it came about. CFEclipse needs a design view to help those people that like the WYSIWYG look and feel, but other than that it's a great IDE. Upgrading DW or CFS is simply crazy in light of Delphi. That has been a long standing problem and Macromedia never wanted to address it. It's simply time for these IDEs to die off. We are, as programmers, 'creatures of habit' but change is a good thing. It's time to move on. There will also be diehards in this, but I think Adobe needs to make a decision and clear this up once and for all. Eclipse has a broader range support base. With Flex/AIR using Eclipse it makes for a nice standard IDE for all these Adobe technologies. I'm also assuming Adobe has some very experience Eclipse guys now. Given the cool features in FB3, I could only assume Adobe could make CFEclipse even better. It would be great if it were free, but frankly I make money with CF development so I would have no problem paying a fair price for an IDE specially if it helps keep the server pricing down. John Mason mason@fusionlink.com 770.337.8363 www.FusionLink.com - ColdFusion and Flex hosting Now offering ColdFusion 8 Enterprise hosting FREE Subversion hosting

> fix issues inside of DW. Like you, I'd rather they had offical support (like, payed developers) for CFE. DW isn't a ColdFusion IDE, it's an HTML editor with some CFML widgits tacked on. When there was Studio, this was fine, because 'serious' CFML coders could just use that. Now though, it's CFE or a generic code editor with a community syntax template. It also doesn't run (natively) on Linux - this is a show stopper for us, as our desktops are 'nix. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to advantageously transform dynamic ROI on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Tom, I'm sorry, are you implying that CFStudio was more than HomeSite "dressed up"? CFS wasn't an IDE either, it was an HTML Editor (called HomeSite) with some CFML widgits tacked on. Don't get me wrong.  I'm _GLAD_ Adobe is taking customer requests seriously (no, really!)... I guess I'm surprised that a IDE is at the top of the list of "serious issues."  That being said, maybe clarification should have been "IDE for *nix" or something.  Just seems weird that anyone would think about reinventing the wheel when the wheel has already been made and rolling for some time with and without Adobe official stamp on it (I'm speaking of DW/CFEclipse). On Jan 7, 2008 11:52 AM, Tom Chiverton <tom.chiverton@halliwells.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I got the sense talking to some Adobe people at Max that a large chuck of customers were clamoring for an IDE.  I would seem that the group of customers that don't participate in the community, (that vast majority) but that Adobe reaches out to through sales and support, want this.   I was originally very opposed to the idea, mostly because I felt it was a waste of resources that they could be putting to CFVideo, or CFAir. But since part of ColdFusion continued health depends on keeping large numbers of paying customers happy, the IDE does sound like a smart move for them.   Terrence Ryan I.T. Director Wharton Computing and Information Technology       E-mail:         tpryan@wharton.upenn.edu Tom, I'm sorry, are you implying that CFStudio was more than HomeSite "dressed up"? CFS wasn't an IDE either, it was an HTML Editor (called HomeSite) with some CFML widgits tacked on. Don't get me wrong.  I'm _GLAD_ Adobe is taking customer requests seriously (no, really!)... I guess I'm surprised that a IDE is at the top of the list of "serious issues."  That being said, maybe clarification should have been "IDE for *nix" or something.  Just seems weird that anyone would think about reinventing the wheel when the wheel has already been made and rolling for some time with and without Adobe official stamp on it (I'm speaking of DW/CFEclipse). On Jan 7, 2008 11:52 AM, Tom Chiverton <tom.chiverton@halliwells.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Tom, I'm sorry, are you implying that CFStudio was more than HomeSite > "dressed up"? No, sorry - I meant DW is useless as a CF IDE. > Don't get me wrong.  I'm _GLAD_ Adobe is taking customer requests seriously > (no, really!)... I guess I'm surprised that a IDE is at the top of the list > of "serious issues."   Well, as there isn't an 'offical' IDE for CF (DW doesn't count for so many reasons) and every other major server language has one, I can see why... -- Tom Chiverton Helping to preemptively orchestrate one-to-one meta-services on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Let me fix your typo. "No, sorry - I meant DW is usefulness as a CF IDE." There, all fixed! :) Will

Why don't they simply continue to support and develop CF Studio ? -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

Claude, I'm with you there.... I use homesite about 50% of the time... Can't seem to get away from it. Especially since I have all my custom help files and edits and vtms brought forward for the last 7 or 8 years :) -mark Why don't they simply continue to support and develop CF Studio ? -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

They would need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease the majority of the developers. But, I would be all for it.  :D M!ke Claude, I'm with you there.... I use homesite about 50% of the time... Can't seem to get away from it. Especially since I have all my custom help files and edits and vtms brought forward for the last 7 or 8 years :) -mark Why don't they simply continue to support and develop CF Studio ?

>>They would need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease the majority of the developers. Then let'm do it! -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

The "majority" of developers are non-windows? In the corporate CF world my guess would be 95% windows. That's just been my experience. Greg On Jan 7, 2008 12:39 PM, Dawson, Michael <md40@evansville.edu> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I didn't word that very well... Put it this way, if Adobe created a new IDE that was only Windows-based, they would really be shooting themselves in the foot. Maybe I should have said they need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease enough developers to justify the entire project. M!ke The "majority" of developers are non-windows? In the corporate CF world my guess would be 95% windows. That's just been my experience. Greg On Jan 7, 2008 12:39 PM, Dawson, Michael <md40@evansville.edu> wrote: > They would need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease the > majority of the developers. > > But, I would be all for it.  :D > > M!ke

Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was Windows only. I didn't word that very well... Put it this way, if Adobe created a new IDE that was only Windows-based, they would really be shooting themselves in the foot. Maybe I should have said they need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease enough developers to justify the entire project. M!ke The "majority" of developers are non-windows? In the corporate CF world my guess would be 95% windows. That's just been my experience. Greg On Jan 7, 2008 12:39 PM, Dawson, Michael <md40@evansville.edu> wrote: > They would need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease the > majority of the developers. > > But, I would be all for it.  :D > > M!ke

On Jan 7, 2008 11:42 AM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com> wrote: > Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was Windows > only. I don't pretend to have any figured in front of me, but I'd speculate that while I -think- a majority of CF folks are on Windows, I don't know that I'd suggest it's a *significant* majority. My guess is that the investment in building a cross-platform solution would be a worthwhile investment.  And yes, it's just a guess :) -- "Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter." - Dave Barry

One of the features I absolutely love about Aptana and other Eclipse distros is having the methods and arguments of included libraries and classes available with Intellisense/code completion. If the methods and arguments of CFC's and objects were made available it would be a God send. If the classes of included CSS files were available as well that would be great as well. I am a huge fan of Aptana for working with CSS and JS. Take a look at what they are doing with third party JavaScript libraries. http://www.aptana.tv/movies/aptana_yui_demo/YUIDemo.html If this sort of functionality became available with CF script and CFML I would fall all over myself to get a copy. I would gladly pay for an IDE like that (as long as you kept it in the $100 range ;)). Actually if you married CFEclipse with Aptana it would be the CF IDE of my dreams. Thanx, Jerry Guido Programmer MGT of America, Inc. jguido@mgtamer.com The information contained in this electronic communication is intended only for the use of the addressee, and may be a confidential communication.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this transmittal in error; any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this transmittal is strictly prohibited.

On Jan 7, 2008 1:56 PM, Jerry Guido <jguido@mgtamer.com> wrote: > I am a huge fan of Aptana for working with CSS and JS. Take a look at > what they are doing with third party JavaScript libraries. > Aptana love seems to be a theme in this thread. Maybe we should all hope for this headline ... Adobe buys Aptana, plans killer CF IDE -- Matt Williams "It's the question that drives us."

On Jan 7, 2008 11:56 AM, Jerry Guido <jguido@mgtamer.com> wrote: > One of the features I absolutely love about Aptana and other Eclipse > distros is having the methods and arguments of included libraries and > classes available with Intellisense/code completion. If the methods and > arguments of CFC's and objects were made available it would be a God > send. That would be impossible in general since CF is a dynamic language and several important frameworks build objects on the fly. And then there's duck typing and onMissingMethod() which both undermine the ability to deduce available methods. That said, I agree that where it is feasible to do so, it would be great if CFEclipse (or whatever) could figure it out. If I had bandwidth - or it was my full-time, well-paid job - I would enjoy building that sort of semantic assistance into an Eclipse-based editor for CF since I used to build compilers and interpreters for a number of languages. It's a suitably hard problem to solve that it would be a lot of fun :) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood

Sean, If you ever decide to get into it, there is a Dynamic Language Toolkit (DLTK) which I've been looking into for a while now for help in building IDEs for dynamic languages on Eclipse. http://www.eclipse.org/dltk/ The language is about as sparse as they come, but they are very helpful on the mailing list. Mark On Jan 8, 2008 7:17 AM, Sean Corfield <seancorfield@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I'm afraid I'd have to say that is not the case.... I would say that it is a significant majority.   On Jan 7, 2008 11:42 AM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com> wrote: > Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was > Windows only. I don't pretend to have any figured in front of me, but I'd speculate that while I -think- a majority of CF folks are on Windows, I don't know that I'd suggest it's a *significant* majority. My guess is that the investment in building a cross-platform solution would be a worthwhile investment.  And yes, it's just a guess :) -- "Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter." - Dave Barry

I am not sure that we have really definitive numbers. But, the last time we did some analysis, about 75% of CF servers were running on Windows, and the number of ColdFusion developers who developed on Windows was even higher than that, a lot higher. Having said that, multi-platform is indeed important, which is why we ask about platform in the survey. The best thing you guys can do to help us now is to get as many people as possible to fill the survey in. Getting responses from the cf-talk readers and frequent goog or MXNA readers is easy, but we also have