Adobe ColdFusion IDE survey

In case no one is reading RSS these days, http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=321RrO9_2fWaP_2bdYMnmF9CuQ_3d_3d -- Tom Chiverton Helping to vitalistically leverage sexy products on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Hopefully this won't be yet another ColdFusion Studio "now you see it, now you don't."  I don't understand why they don't just throw some money at CFEclipse or fix issues inside of DW.  All I see this doing is messing up the Adobe Future-CS3 bundles they have. On Jan 7, 2008 11:36 AM, Tom Chiverton <tom.chiverton@halliwells.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Todd, You are jumping to conclusions. No one has said that we'll not do what you are suggestions. Actually, at this point no one has said anything at all, other than A) a CF IDE ranks as one of the top feature requests, B) we'd like more input from the community to help drove decision making.  That's it - for now. --- Ben Hopefully this won't be yet another ColdFusion Studio "now you see it, now you don't."  I don't understand why they don't just throw some money at CFEclipse or fix issues inside of DW.  All I see this doing is messing up the Adobe Future-CS3 bundles they have. On Jan 7, 2008 11:36 AM, Tom Chiverton <tom.chiverton@halliwells.com> wrote: > In case no one is reading RSS these days, > > http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna/controller.cfm?handler=PostHandler&action =click&postId=239231&nextPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edcooper%2Eorg%2Fblog%2Fclie nt%2Findex%2Ecfm%3Fmode%3Dentry%26entry%3D54F8B07D%2D4E22%2D1671%2D5D4901CA2 8DF6919 > -- > Tom Chiverton > Helping to vitalistically leverage sexy products > on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com >

I am jumping to conclusions because it's part of feedback, even if it is negative.  Customer Perception, isn't it?  I doubt I'm going to be the only one to jump to the conclusions today or take a look at that survey and say, "Duh, we asked for all this years ago." I think a more useful survey would have been?  Have you used HomeSite+/CFStudio? Yes/no.  Have you used DW?  Yes/no If yes, what features did you like from it? etc.  For example, I miss having 2 file explorers like I did in HS+/CF Studio, but it's not a "Must have."  I'll be sure to note that in my survey when I think it through a little more. On Jan 7, 2008 11:50 AM, Ben Forta <ben@forta.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

@Todd, I think having 2 file explorers IS a must have. Once you have been doing that for years, you immediately feel the negative impact that a single file tree has on the development process. Its like walking on one of those flat conveyer belt at the airport and then you step onto the regular floor and everything feels like it slows down. -Ben ..................... Ben Nadel Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX7 Developer www.bennadel.com Need ColdFusion Help? www.bennadel.com/ask-ben/ I am jumping to conclusions because it's part of feedback, even if it is negative.  Customer Perception, isn't it?  I doubt I'm going to be the only one to jump to the conclusions today or take a look at that survey and say, "Duh, we asked for all this years ago." I think a more useful survey would have been?  Have you used HomeSite+/CFStudio? Yes/no.  Have you used DW?  Yes/no If yes, what HomeSite+features did you like from it? etc.  For example, I miss having 2 file explorers like I did in HS+/CF Studio, but it's not a "Must have."  I'll be sure to note that in my survey when I think it through a little more. On Jan 7, 2008 11:50 AM, Ben Forta <ben@forta.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Cool, I'm glad I brought it up to remind folks then.  Be sure to note that in the survey if it's that important to you. ~Todd On Jan 7, 2008 12:06 PM, Ben Nadel <Ben@nylontechnology.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I think having 2 file explorers IS a must have. You mean a local file view, and a remote file view ? -- Tom Chiverton Helping to elementarily maximize intuitive designs on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

> I think a more useful survey would have been?  Have you used > HomeSite+/CFStudio? Yes/no.  Have you used DW?  Yes/no If yes, what "If yes, how long ago" For me, we're talking 5 years or more. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to synergistically cluster synergistic e-tailers on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Ben, When looking at the survey, one of the important things was how much would you pay. The one thing that I would like to add to that is I selected free, only because I couldn't add any reason behind that. My reasoning is this, Coldfusion is loosing ground in areas that I will not debate here. However my logic is this, I would love to see Coldfusion itself 100% free and the IDE I would pay for as long as it supported what I needed to do my job. So if Adobe was to take on CFEclipse, and throw support at it, I am prepared to pay for that. I guess to take on .Net and others I would like to see something that is as comparable to those models. Anyway I know I can dream :-) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Hey, free is a valid option, which is why it is listed there! :-) --- Ben Ben, When looking at the survey, one of the important things was how much would you pay. The one thing that I would like to add to that is I selected free, only because I couldn't add any reason behind that. My reasoning is this, Coldfusion is loosing ground in areas that I will not debate here. However my logic is this, I would love to see Coldfusion itself 100% free and the IDE I would pay for as long as it supported what I needed to do my job. So if Adobe was to take on CFEclipse, and throw support at it, I am prepared to pay for that. I guess to take on .Net and others I would like to see something that is as comparable to those models. Anyway I know I can dream :-) > Todd, > > You are jumping to conclusions. No one has said that we'll not do what you > are suggestions. Actually, at this point no one has said anything at all, > other than A) a CF IDE ranks as one of the top feature requests, B) we'd > like more input from the community to help drove decision making.  That's it ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna/controller.cfm?handler=PostHandler&action > =click&postId=239231&nextPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edcooper%2Eorg%2Fblog%2Fclie > nt%2Findex%2Ecfm%3Fmode%3Dentry%26entry%3D54F8B07D%2D4E22%2D1671%2D5D4901CA2 ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

lol, Ben I think you should read that better, I was asking for Coldfusion itself to be free. And I would pay for the IDE :-) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Ah, ok. Well, that is actually a frequently discussed option too! :-) --- Ben lol, Ben I think you should read that better, I was asking for Coldfusion itself to be free. And I would pay for the IDE :-) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- you > > are suggestions. Actually, at this point no one has said anything at all, > > other than A) a CF IDE ranks as one of the top feature requests, B) we'd > > like more input from the community to help drove decision making. That's ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- now > > you don't."  I don't understand why they don't just throw some money at > > CFEclipse or fix issues inside of DW.  All I see this doing is messing up ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna/controller.cfm?handler=PostHandler&action > > > =click&postId=239231&nextPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edcooper%2Eorg%2Fblog%2Fclie > > > nt%2Findex%2Ecfm%3Fmode%3Dentry%26entry%3D54F8B07D%2D4E22%2D1671%2D5D4901CA2 ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Yeah, well like I said I know I can dream... > Ah, ok. Well, that is actually a frequently discussed option too! :-) > > --- Ben

>the consensus seemed to be that a CF IDE needs to either be Eclipse based >(aligned well with Flex Builder and more) or Dreamweaver based (or possibly both) My vote is Eclipse. I never liked DW and used CFS from it's start but quickly switched to CFEclipse when it came about. CFEclipse needs a design view to help those people that like the WYSIWYG look and feel, but other than that it's a great IDE. Upgrading DW or CFS is simply crazy in light of Delphi. That has been a long standing problem and Macromedia never wanted to address it. It's simply time for these IDEs to die off. We are, as programmers, 'creatures of habit' but change is a good thing. It's time to move on. There will also be diehards in this, but I think Adobe needs to make a decision and clear this up once and for all. Eclipse has a broader range support base. With Flex/AIR using Eclipse it makes for a nice standard IDE for all these Adobe technologies. I'm also assuming Adobe has some very experience Eclipse guys now. Given the cool features in FB3, I could only assume Adobe could make CFEclipse even better. It would be great if it were free, but frankly I make money with CF development so I would have no problem paying a fair price for an IDE specially if it helps keep the server pricing down. John Mason mason@fusionlink.com 770.337.8363 www.FusionLink.com - ColdFusion and Flex hosting Now offering ColdFusion 8 Enterprise hosting FREE Subversion hosting

> fix issues inside of DW. Like you, I'd rather they had offical support (like, payed developers) for CFE. DW isn't a ColdFusion IDE, it's an HTML editor with some CFML widgits tacked on. When there was Studio, this was fine, because 'serious' CFML coders could just use that. Now though, it's CFE or a generic code editor with a community syntax template. It also doesn't run (natively) on Linux - this is a show stopper for us, as our desktops are 'nix. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to advantageously transform dynamic ROI on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Tom, I'm sorry, are you implying that CFStudio was more than HomeSite "dressed up"? CFS wasn't an IDE either, it was an HTML Editor (called HomeSite) with some CFML widgits tacked on. Don't get me wrong.  I'm _GLAD_ Adobe is taking customer requests seriously (no, really!)... I guess I'm surprised that a IDE is at the top of the list of "serious issues."  That being said, maybe clarification should have been "IDE for *nix" or something.  Just seems weird that anyone would think about reinventing the wheel when the wheel has already been made and rolling for some time with and without Adobe official stamp on it (I'm speaking of DW/CFEclipse). On Jan 7, 2008 11:52 AM, Tom Chiverton <tom.chiverton@halliwells.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I got the sense talking to some Adobe people at Max that a large chuck of customers were clamoring for an IDE.  I would seem that the group of customers that don't participate in the community, (that vast majority) but that Adobe reaches out to through sales and support, want this.   I was originally very opposed to the idea, mostly because I felt it was a waste of resources that they could be putting to CFVideo, or CFAir. But since part of ColdFusion continued health depends on keeping large numbers of paying customers happy, the IDE does sound like a smart move for them.   Terrence Ryan I.T. Director Wharton Computing and Information Technology       E-mail:         tpryan@wharton.upenn.edu Tom, I'm sorry, are you implying that CFStudio was more than HomeSite "dressed up"? CFS wasn't an IDE either, it was an HTML Editor (called HomeSite) with some CFML widgits tacked on. Don't get me wrong.  I'm _GLAD_ Adobe is taking customer requests seriously (no, really!)... I guess I'm surprised that a IDE is at the top of the list of "serious issues."  That being said, maybe clarification should have been "IDE for *nix" or something.  Just seems weird that anyone would think about reinventing the wheel when the wheel has already been made and rolling for some time with and without Adobe official stamp on it (I'm speaking of DW/CFEclipse). On Jan 7, 2008 11:52 AM, Tom Chiverton <tom.chiverton@halliwells.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Tom, I'm sorry, are you implying that CFStudio was more than HomeSite > "dressed up"? No, sorry - I meant DW is useless as a CF IDE. > Don't get me wrong.  I'm _GLAD_ Adobe is taking customer requests seriously > (no, really!)... I guess I'm surprised that a IDE is at the top of the list > of "serious issues."   Well, as there isn't an 'offical' IDE for CF (DW doesn't count for so many reasons) and every other major server language has one, I can see why... -- Tom Chiverton Helping to preemptively orchestrate one-to-one meta-services on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Let me fix your typo. "No, sorry - I meant DW is usefulness as a CF IDE." There, all fixed! :) Will

Why don't they simply continue to support and develop CF Studio ? -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

Claude, I'm with you there.... I use homesite about 50% of the time... Can't seem to get away from it. Especially since I have all my custom help files and edits and vtms brought forward for the last 7 or 8 years :) -mark Why don't they simply continue to support and develop CF Studio ? -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

They would need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease the majority of the developers. But, I would be all for it.  :D M!ke Claude, I'm with you there.... I use homesite about 50% of the time... Can't seem to get away from it. Especially since I have all my custom help files and edits and vtms brought forward for the last 7 or 8 years :) -mark Why don't they simply continue to support and develop CF Studio ?

>>They would need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease the majority of the developers. Then let'm do it! -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

The "majority" of developers are non-windows? In the corporate CF world my guess would be 95% windows. That's just been my experience. Greg On Jan 7, 2008 12:39 PM, Dawson, Michael <md40@evansville.edu> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I didn't word that very well... Put it this way, if Adobe created a new IDE that was only Windows-based, they would really be shooting themselves in the foot. Maybe I should have said they need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease enough developers to justify the entire project. M!ke The "majority" of developers are non-windows? In the corporate CF world my guess would be 95% windows. That's just been my experience. Greg On Jan 7, 2008 12:39 PM, Dawson, Michael <md40@evansville.edu> wrote: > They would need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease the > majority of the developers. > > But, I would be all for it.  :D > > M!ke

Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was Windows only. I didn't word that very well... Put it this way, if Adobe created a new IDE that was only Windows-based, they would really be shooting themselves in the foot. Maybe I should have said they need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease enough developers to justify the entire project. M!ke The "majority" of developers are non-windows? In the corporate CF world my guess would be 95% windows. That's just been my experience. Greg On Jan 7, 2008 12:39 PM, Dawson, Michael <md40@evansville.edu> wrote: > They would need to port it to non-Windows systems to appease the > majority of the developers. > > But, I would be all for it.  :D > > M!ke

On Jan 7, 2008 11:42 AM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com> wrote: > Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was Windows > only. I don't pretend to have any figured in front of me, but I'd speculate that while I -think- a majority of CF folks are on Windows, I don't know that I'd suggest it's a *significant* majority. My guess is that the investment in building a cross-platform solution would be a worthwhile investment.  And yes, it's just a guess :) -- "Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter." - Dave Barry

One of the features I absolutely love about Aptana and other Eclipse distros is having the methods and arguments of included libraries and classes available with Intellisense/code completion. If the methods and arguments of CFC's and objects were made available it would be a God send. If the classes of included CSS files were available as well that would be great as well. I am a huge fan of Aptana for working with CSS and JS. Take a look at what they are doing with third party JavaScript libraries. http://www.aptana.tv/movies/aptana_yui_demo/YUIDemo.html If this sort of functionality became available with CF script and CFML I would fall all over myself to get a copy. I would gladly pay for an IDE like that (as long as you kept it in the $100 range ;)). Actually if you married CFEclipse with Aptana it would be the CF IDE of my dreams. Thanx, Jerry Guido Programmer MGT of America, Inc. jguido@mgtamer.com The information contained in this electronic communication is intended only for the use of the addressee, and may be a confidential communication.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this transmittal in error; any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this transmittal is strictly prohibited.

On Jan 7, 2008 1:56 PM, Jerry Guido <jguido@mgtamer.com> wrote: > I am a huge fan of Aptana for working with CSS and JS. Take a look at > what they are doing with third party JavaScript libraries. > Aptana love seems to be a theme in this thread. Maybe we should all hope for this headline ... Adobe buys Aptana, plans killer CF IDE -- Matt Williams "It's the question that drives us."

On Jan 7, 2008 11:56 AM, Jerry Guido <jguido@mgtamer.com> wrote: > One of the features I absolutely love about Aptana and other Eclipse > distros is having the methods and arguments of included libraries and > classes available with Intellisense/code completion. If the methods and > arguments of CFC's and objects were made available it would be a God > send. That would be impossible in general since CF is a dynamic language and several important frameworks build objects on the fly. And then there's duck typing and onMissingMethod() which both undermine the ability to deduce available methods. That said, I agree that where it is feasible to do so, it would be great if CFEclipse (or whatever) could figure it out. If I had bandwidth - or it was my full-time, well-paid job - I would enjoy building that sort of semantic assistance into an Eclipse-based editor for CF since I used to build compilers and interpreters for a number of languages. It's a suitably hard problem to solve that it would be a lot of fun :) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood

Sean, If you ever decide to get into it, there is a Dynamic Language Toolkit (DLTK) which I've been looking into for a while now for help in building IDEs for dynamic languages on Eclipse. http://www.eclipse.org/dltk/ The language is about as sparse as they come, but they are very helpful on the mailing list. Mark On Jan 8, 2008 7:17 AM, Sean Corfield <seancorfield@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I'm afraid I'd have to say that is not the case.... I would say that it is a significant majority.   On Jan 7, 2008 11:42 AM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com> wrote: > Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was > Windows only. I don't pretend to have any figured in front of me, but I'd speculate that while I -think- a majority of CF folks are on Windows, I don't know that I'd suggest it's a *significant* majority. My guess is that the investment in building a cross-platform solution would be a worthwhile investment.  And yes, it's just a guess :) -- "Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter." - Dave Barry

I am not sure that we have really definitive numbers. But, the last time we did some analysis, about 75% of CF servers were running on Windows, and the number of ColdFusion developers who developed on Windows was even higher than that, a lot higher. Having said that, multi-platform is indeed important, which is why we ask about platform in the survey. The best thing you guys can do to help us now is to get as many people as possible to fill the survey in. Getting responses from the cf-talk readers and frequent goog or MXNA readers is easy, but we also have a pretty good idea what those responses will be. If you have co-workers or usergroup members or others who can weigh in with their views, views we might not hear as often, that would be invaluable. --- Ben I'm afraid I'd have to say that is not the case.... I would say that it is a significant majority.   On Jan 7, 2008 11:42 AM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com> wrote: > Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was > Windows only. I don't pretend to have any figured in front of me, but I'd speculate that while I -think- a majority of CF folks are on Windows, I don't know that I'd suggest it's a *significant* majority. My guess is that the investment in building a cross-platform solution would be a worthwhile investment.  And yes, it's just a guess :) -- "Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter." - Dave Barry

Ben, Sorry... Can you post the link to the survey again....I'll have my developers fill it out. Thanks. -Mark I am not sure that we have really definitive numbers. But, the last time we did some analysis, about 75% of CF servers were running on Windows, and the number of ColdFusion developers who developed on Windows was even higher than that, a lot higher. Having said that, multi-platform is indeed important, which is why we ask about platform in the survey. The best thing you guys can do to help us now is to get as many people as possible to fill the survey in. Getting responses from the cf-talk readers and frequent goog or MXNA readers is easy, but we also have a pretty good idea what those responses will be. If you have co-workers or usergroup members or others who can weigh in with their views, views we might not hear as often, that would be invaluable. --- Ben I'm afraid I'd have to say that is not the case.... I would say that it is a significant majority.   On Jan 7, 2008 11:42 AM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com> wrote: > Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was > Windows only. I don't pretend to have any figured in front of me, but I'd speculate that while I -think- a majority of CF folks are on Windows, I don't know that I'd suggest it's a *significant* majority. My guess is that the investment in building a cross-platform solution would be a worthwhile investment.  And yes, it's just a guess :) -- "Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter." - Dave Barry

On Jan 7, 2008 1:36 PM, Mark Kruger <mkruger@cfwebtools.com> wrote: > Ben, > > Sorry... Can you post the link to the survey again....I'll have my > developers fill it out. Thanks. Seriously?  Dude.  it's on every... single... blog.  We're clogging up the tubes today :) http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=321RrO9_2fWaP_2bdYMnmF9CuQ_3d_3d -- "Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter." - Dave Barry

Thanks Charlie... On Jan 7, 2008 1:36 PM, Mark Kruger <mkruger@cfwebtools.com> wrote: > Ben, > > Sorry... Can you post the link to the survey again....I'll have my > developers fill it out. Thanks. Seriously?  Dude.  it's on every... single... blog.  We're clogging up the tubes today :) http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=321RrO9_2fWaP_2bdYMnmF9CuQ_3d_3d --

>>Sorry... Can you post the link to the survey again... How about a survey about a good message reader that can save and retrieve previous messages? ;-) -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

On Jan 7, 2008 4:16 PM, Claude Schneegans <schneegans@internetique.com> wrote: >  >>Sorry... Can you post the link to the survey again... > > How about a survey about a good message reader that can save and > retrieve previous messages? ;-) Obviously a job for CF_REextract! -- "Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter." - Dave Barry

>>Obviously a job for CF_REextract! Ha ha! Touché ;-) -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

Haha! .:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com

Gotta love statistics.  Where are you getting these numbers from again? I think it's in Adobe's best interest to make it cross-platform.  Else the wrath of Ray / Sean / some others might be felt. :) On Jan 7, 2008 2:42 PM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com> wrote: > Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was Windows > only. >

While a majority of developers may be on a win'dohs box, if last year's CFUnited is any indication there were quite a few Mac users in attendance, judging from the number Mac laptops I saw in use. regards, larry >Gotta love statistics.  Where are you getting these numbers from again? > >I think it's in Adobe's best interest to make it cross-platform.  Else the >wrath of Ray / Sean / some others might be felt. :)

Larry, Yep, there were lots of Macs. And in fact, the entire evangelism team use Macs, with only two exceptions (one of whom is yours truly). But keep in mind that CFUnited appeals to the high end ColdFusion developers, and the demographic present at that event is absolutely not indicative of the ColdFusion developer base in general. The very vocal high profile minority present at events like CFUnited and cfObjective and Scotch and WebDU, and subscribed to cf-talk and the like, are just that - very vocal, but definitely a minority. For example, and I know many here won't believe this, but among the greater CF community about half of developers use Dreamweaver for their ColdFusion development, and they like it, too! Oh, and when I visit customer sites I still find that most ColdFusion developers have yet to ever use a CFC. Seriously. We'd never ignore the hardcore dedicated user base that hangs around here, and the opinions shared here are taken very seriously. But, just keep in mind that there is a much bigger CF world than is present here. Which is why we need the bigger sampling in surveys. --- Ben While a majority of developers may be on a win'dohs box, if last year's CFUnited is any indication there were quite a few Mac users in attendance, judging from the number Mac laptops I saw in use. regards, larry >Gotta love statistics.  Where are you getting these numbers from again? > >I think it's in Adobe's best interest to make it cross-platform.  Else the >wrath of Ray / Sean / some others might be felt. :)

> While a majority of developers may be on a win'dohs box, if last year's > CFUnited is any indication there were quite a few Mac users in attendance, > judging from the number Mac laptops I saw in use. > > regards, > > larry what about us who want to  switch to linux..... gosh, leave us hanging  why don't ya.

> what about us who want to  switch to linux..... gosh, leave us hanging  why > don't ya. If I'm at Scotch, I'll bring my Kubuntu laptop :-) -- Tom Chiverton Helping to centrally enhance professional information on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

If you want to see the follow up to 2007's "fuzzy oranges", you will be there ;) Andy ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> If you want to see the follow up to 2007's "fuzzy oranges", you will be > there ;) Well, now I have to go :-) -- Tom Chiverton Helping to enthusiastically negotiate integrated interfaces on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

On Jan 7, 2008 11:42 AM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com> wrote: > Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was Windows > only. More and more CFers are switching to Macs. Have you been to a CF conference lately and seen all the PowerBooks and MacBook Pros in the audience? Now, I accept that the "few hundred" CFers who go to conferences are not representative of the CF community at large but I can't imagine Adobe producing a Windows-only IDE. They got enough grief about the code gen wizards for Eclipse being Windows only (because they were based on the Delphi code in HS!). -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood

Oh I agree Sean...it would be foolish to produce a Windows only app. On Jan 7, 2008 11:42 AM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com> wrote: > Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was > Windows only. More and more CFers are switching to Macs. Have you been to a CF conference lately and seen all the PowerBooks and MacBook Pros in the audience? Now, I accept that the "few hundred" CFers who go to conferences are not representative of the CF community at large but I can't imagine Adobe producing a Windows-only IDE. They got enough grief about the code gen wizards for Eclipse being Windows only (because they were based on the Delphi code in HS!). -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood

A moot point if the platform is Eclipse-based. What I think would really kick ass is if Adobe would embed a bare-bones version of the ColdFusion server itself directly into Eclipse (since it is also Java-based), or hook directly into a local install of CF. Because at that point the parsing challenges go away: the IDE would know exactly what paths/mappings to use and where everything is, as well as being able to compile the code behind the scenes and provide true error flagging, code insight, etc. These are all guesses, but the point is I'm pretty sure that having a real instance of CF intimately connected to the IDE would open up a huge number of possibilities. On Jan 7, 2008 2:42 PM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com> wrote: > Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was Windows > only. > > >

Good grief.  I'm getting (bad) flashbacks from late 90s/early 2000.  I recall a certain java server that had the IDE built directly into it. Silverstream? On Jan 7, 2008 2:53 PM, Brian Kotek <brian428@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Not sure why you think it would be bad, since as Sean pointed out it would be the only way to get true introspection and error flagging. An IDE could parse text until the cows come home, but until the code is actually compiled and executed there is no way to know what is actually happening. On Jan 7, 2008 3:00 PM, Todd <webrat@gmail.com> wrote: > Good grief.  I'm getting (bad) flashbacks from late 90s/early 2000.  I > recall a certain java server that had the IDE built directly into it. > Silverstream? > > >

On Jan 7, 2008 1:53 PM, Brian Kotek <brian428@gmail.com> wrote: > A moot point if the platform is Eclipse-based. What I think would really > kick ass is if Adobe would embed a bare-bones version of the ColdFusion > server itself directly into Eclipse (since it is also Java-based), or hook Not technically. Some of the CF Extensions feature set is Windows only, even though it runs in Eclipse. -- =========================================================================== Raymond Camden, Camden Media Email    : ray@camdenfamily.com Blog      : www.coldfusionjedi.com AOL IM : cfjedimaster Keep up to date with the community: http://www.coldfusionbloggers.org

>>It would be smart for them to make it cross-platform, but it wouldn't affect that many people if it was Windows only. Exact, there may be quite a few production servers under Unix, but their developers are under Windows. -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

> Again...I would argue that the overwhelming majority of ColdFusion > developers are Windows based. It would be smart for them to make it > cross-platform, The smart choice would be 'do a Flex Builder' and build it on top of Eclipse, rather than port it. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to competently generate third-generation users on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Claude, To be brutally blunt, that's far too expensive an option. CF Studio (and HomeSite) are built in a language that is used for almost nothing else in the company, and keeping a team of Delphi developers on just for that product is hard to justify. Plus, the reality is that we've done nothing with that product in about 8 years, so the catch-up work that would be required would be immense. We discussed this at MAX in Chicago extensively, and the consensus seemed to be that a CF IDE needs to either be Eclipse based (aligned well with Flex Builder and more) or Dreamweaver based (or possibly both). There are actually quite a few options available to us, and many have been enumerated already here. The next step is to gather input and feedback to help determine which option to pursue. --- Ben Why don't they simply continue to support and develop CF Studio ? -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

>>and keeping a team of Delphi It was developped in Delphi? .... Yurk! Now I understand. But still, its conversion to C, or even Java, would be worth >>Plus, the reality is that we've done nothing with that product in about 8 years .. and stil many people use it and prefer it. >>that a CF IDE needs to either be Eclipse based (aligned well with Flex Builder and more) or Dreamweaver based Eclipse is too general, too cumbersome, Dreamweaver is more like a WYSIWYG HTML writer, not what developers need. If you have already decided to start from this basis, the problem is that many people hate those products not because they are missing something, but because of what they already have. Adding new options will not help. The advantage of CF Studio is that everybody already love it. Its only problem, and the only reason people are asking for a new product, is with a couple of tools and details that are needed. -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

On Jan 7, 2008 10:09 AM, Claude Schneegans <schneegans@internetique.com> wrote: > If you have already decided to start from this basis, the problem is > that many people hate those products ...and many people don't :) maybe that's why they're doing the survey?  because a couple of guys on a mailing list saying "there's a lot of people that hate (name of product here)" or "there's a lot of people that love (name of product here)" just isn't quite scientific enough :) -- "Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter." - Dave Barry

>>....and many people don't  :) Ok, some don't hate them, and even fewer love them ;-) -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

Claude, I think you will find more people using CFEclipse these days than CF Studio/Homesite+ When CF Studio was stopped in favour of HomeSite+, a lot of good features walked out the door at that point. But as Homesite can't do what I need it to do, why would I go back to it? I think the direction is very clear, but it is something that has been debated internally at Adobe. But with the advent of platform support, DW and Homesite are windows only IDE's. And there are more people using Mac's and Linux these days than everbefore, and as Ben has indicated it needs to be cost effective for Adobe as well, and to port both DW and Homesite to the other platforms would be an expensive exercise. Eclipse as an IDE was the best choice for Flex, for that exact reason. Not Homesite or DW.... ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I think the direction is very clear, but it is something that has been > debated internally at Adobe. But with the advent of platform support, > DW and Homesite are windows only IDE's. For what's worth, DW runs on Mac too, since version 1.0. This doesn't make it a state of the art CFML IDE, but it's cross-platform Massimo

> This doesn't make it a state of the art CFML IDE, but it's cross-platform 2 platforms isn't 'cross'. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to autoschediastically transition third-generation partnerships on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

>> This doesn't make it a state of the art CFML IDE, but it's >> cross-platform > > 2 platforms isn't 'cross'. Yep, you are right :-) Massimo

My Homesite + still is a great asset. I'm on CFE now more than 95% of the time. But what exactly is wrong with Homesite+ other than they don't support it anymore? Someone always rolls out the vtms for new versions of CF. That's the only thing I need. Greg On Jan 7, 2008 1:09 PM, Claude Schneegans <schneegans@internetique.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Jan 7, 2008 10:09 AM, Claude Schneegans <schneegans@internetique.com> wrote: > It was developped in Delphi? .... Yurk! Now I understand. > But still, its conversion to C, or even Java, would be worth I looked into that - there's an open source Delphi "compatible" system that runs on non-Windows systems - but it really doesn't work well and would still be an enormous amount of work to do the conversion, even with that system. As for converting HS to Java, it would be much less work to start with Eclipse and build the HS features on top of that. Which is essentially what the CFEclipse project has done - and that's already open source so anyone can contribute (of course not many CFers actually do contribute so we all owe Mark Drew a huge debt of gratitude for his hard work on the project). FWIW, I hated HomeSite and ColdFusion Studio. I tried them repeatedly and just couldn't work with them at all. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood

Well, I've lurked around here for several of months now and you're finally discussing a subject about which I have strong feelings. Homesite and CF Studio are the only tools I've ever used to develop Web apps. The Studio 5 CFML Wizards are great but should be easier to customize. The custom buttons for the tool bars are too restrictive (two characters? Come on!) but otherwise, I love it. It's particularly helpful when trying to make sense of a JavaScript with the code jammed together in a single line. (I use "Extended replace" to add a carriage return after the semicolon. It also works great for changing .css file and datasource names when re-using templates from other sites.) I plan to continue using Studio 5 as long as it works on my operating system even though I have Macromedia Studio MX. DreamWeaver MX came with a tutorial but what I needed was a cookbook, "There's no time to drain the swamp when you're up to your sphincter in alligators!", so I never took the two or three weeks off required to learn it. Maybe someday, if I retire or go out of business. BTW, Ben, your "ColdFusion MX - WACK" is never more than a forearm's length away from me, and bless you for writing it, but it is also in the form of a tutorial, which makes digging out the moment's essential code a more time consuming effort than it could be. (See "HTML, XHTML, & CSS, Sixth Edition" by Elizabeth Castro for a sample of the "cookbook" format to which I refer.) Sorry to be so wordy but my purpose in posting is pretty simple: Please, please, please, Adobe, don't take away the best darned tool I've ever owned for programming new CF apps! Dave Long, Owner, Janitor, & Snake Oil Technician NorthGoods Merchant Services http://www.northgoods.com -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

Everyone keeps saying Dreamweaver is aimed for the graphic designer side of HTML and that it is not for developers of CF. CF being tag based flows right in the HTML and CSS so I want an editor that can do CSS, HTML and CF because I use all three languages at the same time to make CF pages. I don't like Eclipse because I have to add so many plugins to get what I already get in Dreamweaver.  Then by the time I get all of the plugins the product tends to be become un-stable and hard to keep up to date.  I still have not found a good plugin to code-hint/autocomplete CSS while im doing CF work. Features to add on to Dreamweaver to make it the perfect product: CFC introspection Advanced search and replace like homesite (I love to search for tabs and CR to re-arrange data) Two file browsers

I use Aptana Eclipse plugin for CSS work. If you are separating your style declarations from your actual document (as you should) then the Aptana editor is fantastic for this. Eclipse flips this automatically for me, as I switch between a .cfm template (in CFEclipse perspective) to a .css template. But hey, to each his own.... Steve "Cutter" Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _____________________________ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Chad Gray wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> CF being tag based flows right in the HTML and CSS It really shouldn't. View (HTML) code should be separate to Control and Model code (CFML). -- Tom Chiverton Helping to paradigmatically industrialize best-of-breed platforms on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

But it does.  :) I appreciate separating code, but it just does not always work out that way for me. Once a spaghetti coder always a spaghetti coder.  If my keyboard delivered a shock when I start typing CSS in my HTML maybe I could break the habit. > CF being tag based flows right in the HTML and CSS It really shouldn't. View (HTML) code should be separate to Control and Model code (CFML).

>>View (HTML) code should be separate to Control and Model code (CFML). Absolutely. I never understood the need for a view module in editors. First, it is so easy to have IE, Mozilla or both open on the page, save the page form the editor and just refresh it form the browser. Secondly, what's important is what the page will look like in browsers used by visitors, not in the editor's view module. Developing a view module in the editor is just a waist of time. -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

> Secondly, what's important is what the page will look like in browsers > used by visitors, > not in the editor's view module. Eclipse's 'view module' uses the same rendering engine as FireFox (on Linux anyway). -- Tom Chiverton Helping to synergistically reintermediate dynamic design-patterns on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

>>Eclipse's 'view module' uses the same rendering engine as FireFox Then why not using Firefox directly? And what's about Explorer? Who develops CF applications without checking what it looks like under Explorer? I have several sites using my CMS, and NO administrator uses anything else than IExplorer. -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

>  >>Eclipse's 'view module' uses the same rendering engine as FireFox > Then why not using Firefox directly? The 'I' in IDE :-) I do use a separate FireFox, to be honest, I was just mentioning that IDEs don't always roll their own renderers these days. > And what's about Explorer? For all I know it's switchable on Windows. > I have several sites using my CMS, and NO administrator uses anything > else than IExplorer. You don't check in FireFox (20%+ of Europe uses it) ? -- Tom Chiverton Helping to proactively administrate collaborative e-services on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

>>You don't check in FireFox (20%+ of Europe uses it) ? I was speaking about my own customers. In average and roughly, their sites are visited at 80% by MSIE, 10% Firefox, 10% others. But 100% of the administrators are using MSIE, and none is in Europe. So I FIRST check for MSIE compatibility. -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

Claude, Very succinct... I agree with that. -mark >>View (HTML) code should be separate to Control and Model code (CFML). Absolutely. I never understood the need for a view module in editors. First, it is so easy to have IE, Mozilla or both open on the page, save the page form the editor and just refresh it form the browser. Secondly, what's important is what the page will look like in browsers used by visitors, not in the editor's view module. Developing a view module in the editor is just a waist of time. -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

Agreed.   I've just started use CFE, but I see absolutely no use for an HTML viewer. Time better spent would be on code-folding, if there's time to do anything. Rick ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Developing a view module in the editor is just a waist of time. I have to call shenanigans on that one.  Sometimes you need to drop in a table with some funky rowspans or something, and Dreamweaver makes it extremely easy to get a table set up exactly how you want it without having to go back and forth between the editor and the browser. When you add up all the time spent going between applications it becomes rather significant over the long haul. And, what about the casual designer who might want to use CF to add in a contact form or the like.  This is a large part of the CF user base and can't be ignored by Adobe. -- Josh

Chad, You want a editor for HTML + CSS + CF and I want an editor for CF + Flex and believe me that if you find eclipse unstable, you should have tried Flex Builder 1.5 that was build on top of DreamWeaver. What I really like in Eclipse is that you don't need to wait for Adobe to have functionality A,B or C, very often it's already available as a third party plugin. everyone has different needs, some need CSS+HTML support, some support for Flex, some for other languages besides CF, some need support for version control, etc and in my opinion Eclipse can solve most of them. -- João Fernandes http://www.onflexwithcf.org http://www.riapt.org

I love my Flex Builder 2.0.  Intellesense rocks!  We need that for CFCs in DW. I use Dreamweaver and Flex Builder separately and I don't find that a bad thing.   I would rather have two programs running that do a superior job at each's task then have one program that does a mediocre job. Chad, You want a editor for HTML + CSS + CF and I want an editor for CF + Flex and believe me that if you find eclipse unstable, you should have tried Flex Builder 1.5 that was build on top of DreamWeaver. What I really like in Eclipse is that you don't need to wait for Adobe to have functionality A,B or C, very often it's already available as a third party plugin. everyone has different needs, some need CSS+HTML support, some support for Flex, some for other languages besides CF, some need support for version control, etc and in my opinion Eclipse can solve most of them. -- João Fernandes http://www.onflexwithcf.org http://www.riapt.org

Intellisense for CFCs? We have that in CFEclipse, don't we?...;) Steve "Cutter" Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _____________________________ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Chad Gray wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Unfortunately, no, we don't. And this is a must have addition to whatever IDE might come out of this survey. On Jan 8, 2008 11:09 AM, Cutter (CFRelated) <cold.fusion@cutterscrossing.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

<rant> It seems that many people step up on their soapbox and proclaim that <insert tool here> does not perform <insert personal requirement here>.  The problem that Adobe is trying to solve is a rather large one.  The CF community has a very diverse user base, ranging from seasoned application developers familiar with low level languages requesting tools available in those languages to hobbyists who want a WYSIWYG environment.  We are a large and diverse group, both in terms of skills and requirements.  I believe that some people need to realize that their personal must have feature is not necessarily even needed by other developers within this community.  There is no one "right" answer to this very challenging problem, but I am happy that Adobe is attempting to craft an IDE that will address all of our needs. </rant> My personal hope is that Adobe will develop an Eclipse based solution so that we as a community can leverage the existing tools that exist for the platform and do not need to rely on Adobe to provide every tool that we can dream up.  Mark has done an amazing job with CFE, but at the end of the day, he is still just one man.  With the weight (and money) of Adobe behind an Eclipse based tool, we would all be very much better off IMHO. Rich Kroll

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I agree with you, Rich.  We are much better off having a community of developers working towards providing features that are needed as plug-ins to suit the various developer's styles. Adobe, in a self-contained product, would have a very difficult time, if not impossible, creating an IDE that could be all-things to all-people.  At the end of the day, Adobe, is only going to produce what is going to make money, not what is necessarily best for the community.  On the other hand, developers tend to develop what is best for the community, certainly without concern for monetary gain from the product, as is witnessed by the extensive amount of work Mark has put into CFEclipse. A base program, such as CFEclipse with developer created plug-ins is the way to go. If there a problem with a developer maintained environment, the problems tend to get solved very quickly.  If there's a problem or feature lacking in a program maintained and enhanced only by a company, then the problem or feature may not be addressed for a year or more, or at least until the next "major release" comes out.   (Translated "We'll solve that problem or add that feature, but we're going to make sure you pay for it...) Rick

I'd agree. Given everything that Eclipse offers, like SVN integration, Trac integration, ANT integration, and editors for everything under the sun, I think it would be completely insane for them to use anything else to build a CF IDE. On Jan 8, 2008 11:49 AM, Rick Faircloth <Rick@whitestonemedia.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I am not sure why they would build an IDE on eclipse when we already have one. Actually I don't see why anyone uses anything but cfeclipse but thats just me :) Dan On Jan 8, 2008 12:21 PM, Brian Kotek <brian428@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

That was my point of view (except that I'm fine with both CFEclipse/DW CS3 co-existing) and Ben Forta said I was "jumping the gun." On Jan 8, 2008 12:46 PM, Dan Vega <danvega@gmail.com> wrote: > I am not sure why they would build an IDE on eclipse when we already have > one. Actually I don't see why anyone uses anything but cfeclipse but thats > just me :) > > Dan >

>>I am not sure why they would build an IDE on eclipse when we already have one. Good point. If everybody is happy with CFeclipse, let everybody use CFeclipse. If it is not the case, let Adobe develop something else, but not the same thing. ... by the way, if Adobe is to develop something else, take CF Studio for model, the design is already made, and EVERYBODY will be happy ;-) -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

On Jan 8, 2008 1:42 PM, Claude Schneegans <schneegans@internetique.com> wrote: > > Good point. > If everybody is happy with CFeclipse, let everybody use CFeclipse. > If it is not the case, let Adobe develop something else, but not the > same thing. Everyone is not happy with CFEclipse, that is the whole point. There are tons of things that could be added to it to make it better. This argument makes no sense at all. Whether they take CFEclipse and improve it, or build their own and use bits of CFEclipse that can be reused is irrelevant. > .... by the way, if Adobe is to develop something else, take CF Studio > for model, > the design is already made, and EVERYBODY will be happy ;-) > This would not make me happy. It would be a horrible mistake not to leverage everything that Eclipse provides as the basis for an IDE.

>> the design is already made, and EVERYBODY will be happy ;-) >> This would not make me happy. Ditto. While CFS *was* great in it's time it would need far too much work to bring it up to speed with the state of the art IMHO. >> Everyone is not happy with CFEclipse, that is the whole point. Ditto, While CFE is a good IDE it can be a LOT better. No offence and hats off to Mark Drew and crew (I love CFE). But... and this is a big but, I have used a lot of IDE's over the years and compared to the likes of MS Visual Studio, ActiveState Komodo, NetBeans, NuSphere PhpED etc. etc., CFE leaves me seriously wanting. The fact of the matter is that CF does not have an IDE of nearly the same caliber of the aforementioned offerings. And *that* is the problem. Jerry Guido Programmer MGT of America, Inc. jguido@mgtamer.com The information contained in this electronic communication is intended only for the use of the addressee, and may be a confidential communication.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this transmittal in error; any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this transmittal is strictly prohibited. On Jan 8, 2008 1:42 PM, Claude Schneegans <schneegans@internetique.com> wrote: > > Good point. > If everybody is happy with CFeclipse, let everybody use CFeclipse. > If it is not the case, let Adobe develop something else, but not the > same thing. Everyone is not happy with CFEclipse, that is the whole point. There are tons of things that could be added to it to make it better. This argument makes no sense at all. Whether they take CFEclipse and improve it, or build their own and use bits of CFEclipse that can be reused is irrelevant. > .... by the way, if Adobe is to develop something else, take CF Studio > for model, > the design is already made, and EVERYBODY will be happy ;-) > This would not make me happy. It would be a horrible mistake not to leverage everything that Eclipse provides as the basis for an IDE.

> .... by the way, if Adobe is to develop something else, > take CF Studio  for model, > the design is already made, and EVERYBODY will be happy ;-) I'd be a lot happier with Dreamweaver as the model -- though I'd really like for them to fix the nonsense that causes it to continually open the "design view" despite the fact that I manually closed it. Or give me a way to genuinely disable it all-together since I've never used it and never will. I'd also like to see them "finish" the "automatically save files to server on save" feature, which doesn't include any of the operations of move, copy, rename or delete in the file browser. Though as it is right now, there's not an IDE anywhere as far as I know that does a complete auto-sync between a local copy and a remote copy. This is a big thing for me in development (though not in production) and I haven't been able to figure out a better way to get it done yet. I created a Dreamweaver extension once upon a time that did it for me, but it was flaky/unreliable for reasons that were internal to Dreamweaver that I couldn't control. I use Eclipse / CFEclipse / Aptana at the office where I work currently and find it mostly gets in my way and makes it a challenge for me to perform otherwise simple tasks. -- s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch isn't it time for a change?      ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog

> > .... by the way, if Adobe is to develop something else, ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Under preferences, File Types/Editors Add .cfm to the "Open in Code View" You get what you are looking for but totally loose out on the wysiwyg view.

> I am not sure why they would build an IDE on eclipse when we already have > one. My reasoning would be to start from a clean code base designed from the ground up to be interoperable with existing applications, instead of being tied to the legacy code. Rich Kroll

>>A base program, such as CFEclipse But CFEclipse is not a base program, it is a plugin for Eclipse. This is one of the reasons I don't like it: Eclipse is much more general, much too general, it aims at development of any application, possibly in any language. The other thing I don't like is its nasty habit to name differently what I've been using for years. Another thing is that it looks an alien in the Windows environment. -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

Sure, I can see how having a one-stop editor for Flex, ColdFusion, JavaScript, XML, and HTML, with Subversion, ANT, bug tracking, and task management integration would be a terrible idea. And who can argue with the "looks alien in Windows"...that's a show stopper. (rolls eyes) On Jan 8, 2008 12:46 PM, Claude Schneegans <schneegans@internetique.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I think the problem is a bit of people who do not use CFEclipse currently have come to expect a product they just install and use for CFM, HTML, JavaScript, and maybe a couple other things just trying to list some random possibilities.  They do not expect to install a product then go searching for a few other modules to install and then get all of that. Although I am sure if Adobe made something it would cover those grounds be it something Eclipse based or something one-off.  I just hope it has a better extended find/replace than what is in Eclipse out of the box because that is the one thing that jumps out to me as something I do not like the few times I fire up CFEclipse.  Anything else that jumps out to me is simply because of my lack of effort to go and find the appropriate add-ons such as something for JavaScript and so on, but clearly it does not bug me much because just reading this list would point me to what to get. Personally I would like to see something that included all development tools for doing CF specific work.  What I mean by that is something that includes the report builder(even though only used the current one once) and also any of the wizards they have made that are Eclipse or DW(?) based. On Jan 8, 2008 1:05 PM, Brian Kotek <brian428@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>And who can argue with the "looks alien in Windows"...that's a show stopper. (rolls eyes) I'm not a fan of the visual interface of Eclipse.  It looks as if the authors either didn't take the time, didn't care or purposely avoided making Eclipse look like a native Windows application. There is little, or no, use of common Windows icons for Open, Save, Print, Search, etc. The visual aspect of an application does have some influence. M!ke

You have a very valid point M!ke. If you hopped into a car that had a control stick instead of a steering wheel, would THAT make a difference? >And who can argue with the "looks alien in Windows"...that's a show stopper. (rolls eyes) I'm not a fan of the visual interface of Eclipse.  It looks as if the authors either didn't take the time, didn't care or purposely avoided making Eclipse look like a native Windows application. There is little, or no, use of common Windows icons for Open, Save, Print, Search, etc. The visual aspect of an application does have some influence. M!ke

> You have a very valid point M!ke. If you hopped into a car that had a > control stick instead of a steering wheel, would THAT make a difference? If the car had enough features to justify the investment, I'd spend some time getting used to it. It's probably your Java run times fault it looks 'alien', grabbing the most recent JRE might help. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to enthusiastically harvest cutting-edge networks on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

CF-Talkers, Rather than bore the list with a long email I have written a blog post with some of my thoughts on this topic. Remember that I am old and set in my ways so take it for what it's worth :) http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2008/1/9/Coldfusion.IDE.Debate -Mark Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MCSE (402) 408-3733 ext 105 www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com

>> There is little, or no, use of common Windows icons for Open, Save, Print, Search, etc. That is like looking at a Lunar module and complaining about the color. Never mind that it can land on the moon.... It looks funny. Seriously, I cannot remember the last time I clicked on any of those icons. Jerry Guido Programmer MGT of America, Inc. jguido@mgtamer.com The information contained in this electronic communication is intended only for the use of the addressee, and may be a confidential communication.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this transmittal in error; any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this transmittal is strictly prohibited. You have a very valid point M!ke. If you hopped into a car that had a control stick instead of a steering wheel, would THAT make a difference? >And who can argue with the "looks alien in Windows"...that's a show stopper. (rolls eyes) I'm not a fan of the visual interface of Eclipse.  It looks as if the authors either didn't take the time, didn't care or purposely avoided making Eclipse look like a native Windows application. There is little, or no, use of common Windows icons for Open, Save, Print, Search, etc. The visual aspect of an application does have some influence. M!ke

That's because it's a Java application. While it does mean that the GUI will look different than a traditional, native W32 application, it also means that it looks the same on all platforms (Win, Mac, Linux, etc.). Is it the greatest GUI ever? Hell no. But is it OK? Yes. To me (and most people, I suspect), this is about as low on the priority list as it is possible to get. I haven't used an open or save icon for ten years. I press Control-S. The point being, if the IDE works well and helps me work faster, and obeys certain minimal GUI conventions, I really couldn't care less what it looks like in specific areas like icons or chrome textures. On Jan 9, 2008 9:39 AM, Dawson, Michael <md40@evansville.edu> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Dawson, Michael wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- It's not a native Windows application, but I can see your point.  It doesn't bother me personally but I know it has bothered others enough to keep them working in Dreamweaver or Homesite. That might not please some of the purists on these lists but everyone has their own preference. One last point - I have used Eclipse for a while and consider it my day-to-day IDE, but have never managed to persuade a colleague to convert.  Most people I've spoken to just think Eclipse (not CFEclipse, I might add) is a buggy time-waster which invariably seems to crash too often.  If you've used Homesite for 7 or 8 years with great stability then there's no compelling real reason to change.

I'd say that this argument works against Dreamweaver as well.  It has a flashy interface, but does it look like a standard windows app? On Jan 10, 2008 7:56 AM, David Low <eskeleton@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

"Most people I've spoken to just think Eclipse (not CFEclipse, I might add) is a buggy time-waster which invariably seems to crash too often." It's funny that you mention this. I've been using Eclipse/CFEclipse for a few years now, and have rarely, if ever, had a problem. Yet the guy next to me had horrific experiences out of the gate, until he did a complete reinstall. He's not a fan of Eclipse at all, and I think that's part of why. On another, similar note: yesterday I did an install of CFE using Pulse, adding in Subversive, UML2, and a few other things. Crazy easy to do. I'll be happy when they're listing more projects, and I can see it as another delivery method for Adobe for Flex and for the CF extensions. Steve "Cutter" Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _____________________________ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com David Low wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Cutter (CFRelated) wrote: > It's funny that you mention this. I've been using Eclipse/CFEclipse for > a few years now, and have rarely, if ever, had a problem. Yet the guy > next to me had horrific experiences out of the gate, until he did a > complete reinstall. He's not a fan of Eclipse at all, and I think that's > part of why. That's basically the same story; I set it up OK, but other people seemed to hit trouble, whether with JVMs or plugins not working right. Upgrading plugins seemed to be a big bugbear. > On another, similar note: yesterday I did an install of CFE using Pulse, > adding in Subversive, UML2, and a few other things. Crazy easy to do. > I'll be happy when they're listing more projects, and I can see it as > another delivery method for Adobe for Flex and for the CF extensions. Have to say that's new to me, giving it a try right now.  I'll pass it on to the Eclipse detractors too!

> Upgrading plugins seemed to be a big bugbear. Eclipse 3.2 and later seem to have this well and truly sorted, as long as the plugin is installable from an update site. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to adaptively monetize magnetic features on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

I've not had any problems with Eclipse, it's one of the most reliable   bits of software I have, although I have seen other developers   installs get nuked by plugins (always back it up first!). However, saying that, it doesn't always run overly smooth, for   instance, I regularly have 5-10 second period of "thinking" occuring   when changing certain UI things around... Neil On 10 Jan 2008, at 15:23, Tom Chiverton wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I have both good and bad experiences with Eclipse. Like a lot of open source stuff it sometimes can be a total pain in the ass or it can work flawlessly. I have had enough experience with OSS to know that if you take the good with the bad, the good will far outweigh the bad (most of the time). Eclipse is a lot like Linux in many respects. You can get it do some really amazing things if you are willing to deal with the learning curve and quirks. One of my pet peeves is the dependency hell you can incur while installing plugins. Eclipse really needs a package manager like Yum or Synaptic. But now that I have my base install(s) down pat, I don't know how I live with out it. Jerry Guido Programmer MGT of America, Inc. jguido@mgtamer.com The information contained in this electronic communication is intended only for the use of the addressee, and may be a confidential communication.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this transmittal in error; any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this transmittal is strictly prohibited. "Most people I've spoken to just think Eclipse (not CFEclipse, I might add) is a buggy time-waster which invariably seems to crash too often." It's funny that you mention this. I've been using Eclipse/CFEclipse for a few years now, and have rarely, if ever, had a problem. Yet the guy next to me had horrific experiences out of the gate, until he did a complete reinstall. He's not a fan of Eclipse at all, and I think that's part of why. On another, similar note: yesterday I did an install of CFE using Pulse, adding in Subversive, UML2, and a few other things. Crazy easy to do. I'll be happy when they're listing more projects, and I can see it as another delivery method for Adobe for Flex and for the CF extensions. Steve "Cutter" Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _____________________________ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com David Low wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- to ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- CFEclipse, > I might add) is a buggy time-waster which invariably seems to crash too > often.  If you've used Homesite for 7 or 8 years with great stability > then there's no compelling real reason to change. > >

> One of my pet peeves is the dependency hell you can incur while > installing plugins. Eclipse really needs a package manager like Yum or > Synaptic. With recent releases, it's a matter of making sure the 'discovery' remote source is ticked as well as whatever new one you just added, and then clicking 'add dependencies' on the next step (works for the previous version of Win32 standalone Builder, which needed some extra bits adding for Subclipse to work). -- Tom Chiverton Helping to interactively optimize guinine metrics on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

> Eclipse is much more > general, much too general, it aims at development > of any application, possibly in any language. For me this is a good thing, It allows for those who needs to develop in several languages to have an unified IDE. > Another thing is that it looks an alien in the Windows environment. Rather look like an alien and do a good job than a fancy looking and waist my time to do anything trivial. -- João Fernandes http://www.onflexwithcf.org http://www.riapt.org

I don't quite get what you mean by "it looks an alien (sic)" in the Windows environment.  I've only worked in Windows so may just not know any better, but it seems quite intuitive to me, and I'm haaard to please in that respect. Rick ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>>I don't quite get what you mean by "it looks an alien (sic)" in the Windows environment. Sorry, it has been a while since I tested it, and I think I was thinking of some other system. I re-opened Eclipse, and it does not look too alien after all ;-) -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

(snip) "I believe that some people need to realize that their personal must have feature is not necessarily even needed by other developers within this community." <snip) I rather thought this was the impetus for the survey. My passion for CF Studio 5 is not likely to be shared by a great number of developers and therefore my plea is very likely to be passed over. However, if a significant number of participants note a particular feature for a specific tool, I'll bet Adobe will perk up and listen. Dave Long, O.F.P.W. (Old Fart Programmer Wannabe) http://www.northgoods.com -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

My wish list for a CF IDE. Everything that CFEclipse and the Adobe's plug-ins has with support for: Better short cut keys for code snippets. Not "Ctrl J" but the way the HS/CFS did it. I stuck with CFS for a long time because of DW not supporting short cut keys. Right click >> edit tag - I stuck with CFS for a long time for this as well. Intellisense on CFCs with help (like what Aptana did with the JS libraries) - especially the Admin API, and to a lesser degree the popular frameworks - ColdSpring, MG, M2 etc. What Aptana did with the JS/AJAX libraries is nothing short of amazing. Better Intellisense for html and CSS. Intellisense/ Auto-complete for CFfunctions and CFscript. That is a Biggie. Database Manager. Like the one in MS Visual studio where you can edit the database and data A better query builder with JOIN support and code coloring. Better and faster integrated *Local* help for CF tags/functions. Built in access to basic CF Administrator functions. I would like to see a leaner version of Eclipse (my version eats up way too much RAM). Creating a new IDE or reviving CF Studio would be a waste of resources IMHO. CF Studio *was* great but it took too much hacking to get it to work with other languages (Java, PHP, ASP, C#, JS, SQL etc). Eclipse has spoilt me. I can jump between the above languages in a single IDE and have Intellisense and pop up help/hints for all of them. Thanx, Jerry Guido Programmer MGT of America, Inc. jguido@mgtamer.com The information contained in this electronic communication is intended only for the use of the addressee, and may be a confidential communication.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this transmittal in error; any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this transmittal is strictly prohibited.

Now that is a useful list... Nice going jerry. My wish list for a CF IDE. Everything that CFEclipse and the Adobe's plug-ins has with support for: Better short cut keys for code snippets. Not "Ctrl J" but the way the HS/CFS did it. I stuck with CFS for a long time because of DW not supporting short cut keys. Right click >> edit tag - I stuck with CFS for a long time for this as well. Intellisense on CFCs with help (like what Aptana did with the JS libraries) - especially the Admin API, and to a lesser degree the popular frameworks - ColdSpring, MG, M2 etc. What Aptana did with the JS/AJAX libraries is nothing short of amazing. Better Intellisense for html and CSS. Intellisense/ Auto-complete for CFfunctions and CFscript. That is a Biggie. Database Manager. Like the one in MS Visual studio where you can edit the database and data A better query builder with JOIN support and code coloring. Better and faster integrated *Local* help for CF tags/functions. Built in access to basic CF Administrator functions. I would like to see a leaner version of Eclipse (my version eats up way too much RAM). Creating a new IDE or reviving CF Studio would be a waste of resources IMHO. CF Studio *was* great but it took too much hacking to get it to work with other languages (Java, PHP, ASP, C#, JS, SQL etc). Eclipse has spoilt me. I can jump between the above languages in a single IDE and have Intellisense and pop up help/hints for all of them. Thanx, Jerry Guido Programmer MGT of America, Inc. jguido@mgtamer.com The information contained in this electronic communication is intended only for the use of the addressee, and may be a confidential communication.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this transmittal in error; any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this transmittal is strictly prohibited.   

Two suggestions: 1. Hire Nick Bradbury to build the new IDE. 2. Or build it in Flash.  ;^) M!ke Claude, To be brutally blunt, that's far too expensive an option. CF Studio (and HomeSite) are built in a language that is used for almost nothing else in the company, and keeping a team of Delphi developers on just for that product is hard to justify. Plus, the reality is that we've done nothing with that product in about 8 years, so the catch-up work that would be required would be immense. We discussed this at MAX in Chicago extensively, and the consensus seemed to be that a CF IDE needs to either be Eclipse based (aligned well with Flex Builder and more) or Dreamweaver based (or possibly both). There are actually quite a few options available to us, and many have been enumerated already here. The next step is to gather input and feedback to help determine which option to pursue.

I would say it "Build it in AIR" ;) I would be cross platform once we get a linux version of AIR runtime. In my humble opinion I would go for CFEclipse, a lot of functionality is already there with the CFExtensions adding support for RDS and debugging. I don't know how much work would be to recreate the debugger in another proposed solution. -- João Fernandes http://www.onflexwithcf.org http://www.riapt.org

> 2. Or build it in Flash.  ;^) You all should check out the Thermo Presentation. I beleive this would be a solid indication as to how a CF IDE would be built. Long story short, They are using Eclipse but they cut it up so much you wouldn't be able to use third party tools in it... What Adobe was able to do with eclipse in the development of Thermo is retarded though. Really great presentation to checkout. https://admin.adobe.acrobat.com/_a300965365/p12022133/ Casey

>>Please, please, please, Adobe, don't take away the best darned tool I've ever owned for programming new CF apps! How about starting a union? ;-) -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.

Right, Claude! Where do I sign up? >>Please, please, please, Adobe, don't take away the best darned tool I've ever owned for programming new CF apps! How about starting a union? ;-) -- _______________________________________ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: piegeacon@internetique.com) Thanks.