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ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Author: s. isaac dealey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298624
> Isaac you are insanely smart and you know it... quit rubbing it in. ;)
Heh... it's funny, I actually have a mild complex that makes me worry
that others perceive me as being egotistical. The other article prior to
this one, the Devil Went Down to Silicon Valley, I've edited once or
twice after posting the url, just because I realized that for example I
hadn't also mentioned that I'm equally as guilty of not working the time
into my schedule to experiment with other people's projects, like it
took me a while before I got around to examining Reactor for the first
time.
The article wasn't intended as a dig on anyone, it was intended to be
mostly more of a commentary about companies needing to rethink the
relationship between work and deadlines to allow their programmers the
time to experiment on the clock, which I think would help everyone build
better skills and ultimately result in better service for our clients.
But I get all self-conscious about putting it out there, thinking people
are likely to misread me as "bragging". :P
I'll readily admit to being advanced -- but I certainly didn't get here
overnight. I'm coming up on my 10yr anniversary with ColdFusion and I've
had almost no life outside of work for a number of years, which has a
lot to do with some personal challenges I'm still working through.
--
s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch
isn't it time for a change?
ph: 503.236.3691
http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog
Author: Gerald Guido
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298605
Isaac you are insanely smart and you know it... quit rubbing it in. ;)
Whirled peas,
G
On Feb 8, 2008 8:05 PM, s. isaac dealey <info@turnkey.to> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: s. isaac dealey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298603
> Paul Graham says we should all learn a language a year. Lets make
> this the year we tell our critics to master Coldfusion or stop
> criticizing it!
I guess that would mean I'd have to learn Ruby pretty soon.
http://ontap.riaforge.org/blog/index.cfm/2008/2/8/Maintainability
Doh!
--
s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch
isn't it time for a change?
ph: 503.236.3691
http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog
Author: s. isaac dealey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298602
> I have to agree. Isn't it about time we all got "a little" smug?
As long as I don't have to use words like "playa hater" and "represent".
There's nothing sadder than an egg-headed gen-x post-hippie white-guy
like me trying to "talk street". When I do it somebody really should be
mimicking the Family Guy scene "the power of Christ compells you!" :)
--
s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch
isn't it time for a change?
ph: 503.236.3691
http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298559
Isn't that because the price of dollar really fell? Or is that equivalent
to inflation?
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Jochem van Dieten
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298556
Mark Fuqua wrote:
> It is interesting, that while the developer community has been belly achin'
> about prices for cf, Adobe has actually raised the price for enterprise 50%.
You just have an inflation problem, for people outside the US the price
has gone down.
Jochem
Author: Rick Mason
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298550
I think sometimes we sulk off to places like here and complain when someone
says "CF is dead."
I used to think it wasn't dignified to duke it out with some of the
fanboys. But I have changed my mind. So now I have made it a point to
challenge these guys sometimes.
I took the time to learn Rails a while back. Why is it I am knowledgeable
about their language but they can criticize mine without knowing it? Tell
these guys to download and spend a weekend with the developer edition of
CF-8 and then come back and tell me I am all wet when I say CF defines RAD.
Paul Graham says we should all learn a language a year. Lets make this the
year we tell our critics to master Coldfusion or stop criticizing it!
Rick Mason
On Feb 8, 2008 10:13 AM, Ryan, Terrence <tpryan@wharton.upenn.edu> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Todd Rafferty
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298541
I have to agree. Isn't it about time we all got "a little" smug?
On Feb 8, 2008 10:13 AM, Ryan, Terrence <tpryan@wharton.upenn.edu> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
--
http://www.web-rat.com/
Author: Ryan, Terrence
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298540
I feel the desire to jump in and defend Adam here.
It's definitely a different tone the we're used to. But we talk about how
ColdFusion gets bashed on Digg and it isn't attracting new developers. Having
someone who speaks in the same tone as those audiences isn't a bad thing. If you
want gravitas and decorum - Ben's not going anywhere. But Adam opens up the
community to a new audience in my humble opinion, and that's a good thing.
Gerald Guido [gerald.guido@gmail.com] said
>Personally I do not want an "Evangelist" for my stack of choice who uses
>terms like "PHP and open sores fanboys" in the about section of his blog.
>Nothing personal, and I am all for free expression, and I am sure he is very
>good at what he does etc., but I don't want a person with that sort of
>sophomoric mentality being a spokesperson for a technology I have spent
>years mastering. Especially in the Enterprise.
>It doesn't give me warm fuzzies.
Terrence Ryan
I.T. Director
Wharton Computing and Information Technology     Â
E-mail: Â Â Â Â Â Â Â tpryan@wharton.upenn.edu
Author: Tom Chiverton
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298537
> Shoot, as it stands, CF is "more" free as you don't have to be a
> student to run it on your own machine for nothing.
See my (unanswered) post last week, about what CFML engines are free to use in
production (i.e. without limits like 3 IP address, for instance), and support
(say) RemoteObject calls's from Flex.
--
Tom Chiverton
Helping to assertively establish vertical experiences
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com
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Author: Tom Chiverton
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298534
> Personally I do not want an "Evangelist" for my stack of choice who uses
> terms like "PHP and open sores fanboys" in the about section of his blog.
Depends on context.
I do want someone promoting CF who thinks PHP isn't enterprise-ready, for
instance.
> It doesn't give me warm fuzzies.
Real Programmers don't have warm fuzzies :-)
--
Tom Chiverton
Helping to globally target eye-catching segments
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com
****************************************************
This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.
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under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells
LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is
available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in
relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The
Solicitors Regulation Authority.
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This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be
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Author: Tom Chiverton
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298533
> customers. If enough developers feel that this is a good idea and make
> their voice heard, perhaps Adobe will reconsider it.
I think they've heard, considered, and rejected.
--
Tom Chiverton
Helping to simultaneously unleash world-class design-patterns
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com
****************************************************
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under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells
LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is
available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in
relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The
Solicitors Regulation Authority.
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This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be
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If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells
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Author: Craigsell
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298522
http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/editions/#s4
Developer edition is free. All that's left is the will to learn.
I'll bet that as Adobe merges more applications together like the are doing
now (LiveCycle, CF, Flex, etc.) and make everything PDF compatible, the
market share will increase. The ability to create, manage, and work with
PDFs is a powerful incentive. Hopefully that will overcome the price point
issue - if hosting companies don't put it on their servers it makes it hard
to justify coding applications in it.
Warren
Author: s. isaac dealey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298521
> Correct. However there is a direct relationship between interest and
> getting a job.
I was responding to a comment about (paraphrase) "Adobe should do
something to improve adoption amongst SMB because they'll sell more
licenses". So yup, agree with you there -- but I wasn't arguing against
this.
--
s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch
isn't it time for a change?
ph: 503.236.3691
http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog
Author: s. isaac dealey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298518
> > No, I'm pretty sure it was introduced in 4.x. I seem to recall it
> was > 4.0.1, but I'm not entirely sure.
>
> I bet Ben Forta could tell us half asleep with both eyes closed.
> He's a master of random CF version history factoids. :)
I should hope so! He's been the product evangelist since before I
started working with it. :)
--
s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch
isn't it time for a change?
ph: 503.236.3691
http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog
Author: Aaron Rouse
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298519
Our entire CF based RAD tool was built originally for CF3 and upgraded some
for 4 and never touched since then. We had to change one page when we went
to CF6 and nothing for CF7 or CF8. The one page we had to change, we had to
change a handful of references to #URL# to #Variables.URL#.
On Feb 7, 2008 4:38 PM, Russ <cflists@ruslansivak.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Gerald Guido
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298520
>> I do however take issue with craigslist being used as a benchmark for
determining the interest in ColdFusion and the assumption that there is
a direct relationship between interest and profitability.
Correct. However there is a direct relationship between interest and
getting a job.
On Feb 7, 2008 8:53 PM, s. isaac dealey <info@turnkey.to> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: s. isaac dealey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298516
> But guess what? There's not a whole lot of small-biz/enterprise
> asking CF by name. And I don't think anyone here will dispute that.
> If you check out craigslist, dice, monster, etc... demand for PHP
> developers far out number demand for CF developers. If you dispute
> that, you are in denial.
I certainly don't deny that's the case on craigslist.
I do however take issue with craigslist being used as a benchmark for
determining the interest in ColdFusion and the assumption that there is
a direct relationship between interest and profitability. Throughout the
world, there's immense interest in water, though until very recently
there was very little profit in it, and ultimately what surprising
profit there is to be had in water these days is largely an effect of
marketing spin i.e. commercial con artistry. There is conversely very
little, you might say even miniscule interest in WebSphere compared to
the interest in water, and by most accounts WebSphere is pretty
profitable ostensibly with much less in the way of commercial deception.
At some point in the future, Adobe may become more interested in the
"long tail" (SMB) instead of targeting the enterprise. It may or may not
be beneficial to them now or in the future. But even with every last
scrap of information that's available with regards to the market (number
of consumers, amount of money they're spending, etc. etc.) the execs at
Adobe responsible for pricing are probably not getting it 100% correct,
simply because economics is almost on par with quantum physics in its
complexity. I don't think I'm likely to be able to accurately judge how
on-target Adobe is by looking at craigslist and seeing that there are
fewer CF jobs for me to bid on than there are PHP or ASP jobs.
--
s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch
isn't it time for a change?
ph: 503.236.3691
http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog
Author: Aaron Rouse
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298517
Every computer lab I have been in within the past 3 years has had computers
that could easily handle the needs of CF and even CF and MSSQL Express.
This includes 4 Universities and 3 community colleges. I had to install CF
onto my personal laptop within the past year for a class that was not even
CF related at all, it just had a bunch of examples in a CFM application and
the book detailed how to install the developer version and how to run it.
Out of the 45 or so people in the class, I do not recall one person
complaining about anything in regards to the CF.
On Feb 7, 2008 2:29 PM, Russ <cflists@ruslansivak.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298513
> I don't know either. Perhaps because you have invested
> heavily in CF like many of us here?
I am more invested in the defense of common sense. I think that the people
who are complaining about how Adobe isn't giving CF away, or getting it into
schools, etc, have unrealistic expectations about (a) what exactly Adobe can
do and (b) whether it's in Adobe's best interest to do so.
> True. However, ColdFusion taught me the *experiential
> meaning* of FUD.
I'm not sure what that means.
> Which is why this thread has gone on so long
> and also why I am learning Java and ..NET.
> The point is: People are jumping ship or at least getting
> prepared to.
>
> FUD is in the air and is *palpable*.
Again, this is nothing new. People have been doomsaying about CF since
before there was, say, ASP. People have been jumping ship all this time.
And, of course, everyone knows best how to make CF more popular than the
people actually selling the product. And yet, CF is still here.
Well, this thread, or one very much like it, goes on so long every time it
comes up, probably about once or twice a year. You should certainly learn
Java or .NET or both anyway, because they're good things to know, but I
wouldn't do it solely on account of this thread.
> I was briefly placated by Adobe's hiring a new Evangelist
> until I read the by line on his blog.
So one admittedly juvenile crack on a personal blog outweighs the fact that
Adobe is taking CF evangelism more seriously? He doesn't represent your
"stack of choice" any more than Steve Ballmer represents .NET.
Developers, developers, DEVELOPERS!
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Gerald Guido
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298509
>>> I don't know why I bother responding to these threads, though.
I don't know either. Perhaps because you have invested heavily in CF like
many of us here?
>> People have been griping about CF pricing/marketing/evangelism since it
was an Allaire
product.
True. However, ColdFusion taught me the *experiential meaning* of FUD. Which
is why this thread has gone on so long and also why I am learning Java and
.NET.
The point is: People are jumping ship or at least getting prepared to.
FUD is in the air and is *palpable*.
I was briefly placated by Adobe's hiring a new Evangelist until I read the
by line on his blog.
Personally I do not want an "Evangelist" for my stack of choice who uses
terms like "PHP and open sores fanboys" in the about section of his blog.
Nothing personal, and I am all for free expression, and I am sure he is very
good at what he does etc., but I don't want a person with that sort of
sophomoric mentality being a spokesperson for a technology I have spent
years mastering. Especially in the Enterprise.
It doesn't give me warm fuzzies.
On Feb 7, 2008 5:18 PM, Dave Watts <dwatts@figleaf.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Brad Wood
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298504
> No, I'm pretty sure it was introduced in 4.x. I seem to recall it was
> 4.0.1, but I'm not entirely sure.
I bet Ben Forta could tell us half asleep with both eyes closed. He's a
master of random CF version history factoids. :)
~Brad
Author: William Seiter
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298502
Yes, Cfscript in 4.0 released Nov 1998... still over 9 years ago
--
William E. Seiter
Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
Enter passkey: goldengrove
Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
http://William.Seiter.com
> Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't CFSCRIPT been around
> since CF 3 (1997)
No, I'm pretty sure it was introduced in 4.x. I seem to recall it was 4.0.1,
but I'm not entirely sure. The ability to write functions in CFSCRIPT wasn't
introduced until CF 5, though.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298500
> Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't CFSCRIPT been around
> since CF 3 (1997)
No, I'm pretty sure it was introduced in 4.x. I seem to recall it was 4.0.1,
but I'm not entirely sure. The ability to write functions in CFSCRIPT wasn't
introduced until CF 5, though.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: William Seiter
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298497
Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't CFSCRIPT been around since CF 3 (1997)
>CFC's are largely a new language that was totally not available in 4.5 and
>so are functions. I don't remember when CFSCRIPT was added, but that's
>pretty much a new language.
--
William E. Seiter
Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
Enter passkey: goldengrove
Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
http://William.Seiter.com
Author: Todd Rafferty
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298498
On Feb 7, 2008 5:38 PM, Russ <cflists@ruslansivak.com> wrote:
> CFC's are largely a new language that was totally not available in 4.5 and
> so are functions. I don't remember when CFSCRIPT was added, but that's
> pretty much a new language.
>
If you can run a CF 4.5 site that contains mostly includes, modules and
custom tags on a CF8 box, then there's seriously something wrong with the
code. =)
--
http://www.web-rat.com/
Author: Todd Rafferty
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298499
Er.. I meant to say, if you "can't" - sorry... distracted by the better
half.
On Feb 7, 2008 6:05 PM, Todd Rafferty <webrat@gmail.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
--
http://www.web-rat.com/
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298495
> Largely compatible does not mean compatible. I had to make a
> bunch of changes just upgrading from 7 to 8.
I'm sorry to hear that. However, the vast majority of syntax is the same,
and there are plenty of CF applications written for 5 and earlier that will
simply run, as is, on CF 8. And, of course, there's a huge difference
between "making a bunch of changes" and REWRITING YOUR ENTIRE APPLICATION.
> Are you saying that you can't run classic asp sites on IIS 6/7?
I'm saying that Microsoft created a CF competitor, found it wanting, and
replaced it with something completely different. People who invested their
time and effort learning classic ASP had to essentially throw that knowledge
away to build new applications with the new tools Microsoft provided.
Overnight, Microsoft turned the value of knowing ASP into something like the
value of knowing COBOL - great for maintaining applications, not so great
for building new applications. I guess those ASP people could ask for their
money back, though.
That is obviously not the case with CF. There are new things to know about
CF 8, of course, but you write CFQUERY, CFOUTPUT, etc the same in CF 8 as
you would in CF 3. I've been teaching the official CF curriculum since CF 3.
It's amazing how much of it hasn't changed!
> CFC's are largely a new language that was totally not
> available in 4.5 and so are functions. I don't remember when
> CFSCRIPT was added, but that's pretty much a new language.
The addition of new features has nothing to do with continued support of
existing features. To use any of these new features, you can integrate new
code into your existing code base at your own pace. If you have a classic
ASP application, and you want to add some nifty ASP.NET functionality (user
controls, code-behind, etc) you have to REWRITE YOUR ENTIRE APPLICATION. If
you fail to see the difference, you are either blind or you bill by the
hour.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298494
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Largely compatible does not mean compatible. I had to make a bunch of
changes just upgrading from 7 to 8.
Are you saying that you can't run classic asp sites on IIS 6/7?
CFC's are largely a new language that was totally not available in 4.5 and
so are functions. I don't remember when CFSCRIPT was added, but that's
pretty much a new language.
Russ
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298493
> I would guess the same thing that happened to CF 4.5, which I
> would consider to be the ASP classic of those days. It got
> upgraded to newer and better things.
CFML written for a 4.5 server is largely compatible with CF 8. I just
upgraded a CF 4.5 server to CF 8. "Classic" ASP doesn't use the same
languages as ASP.NET.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298492
---snip---
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
I would guess the same thing that happened to CF 4.5, which I would consider
to be the ASP classic of those days. It got upgraded to newer and better
things.
Russ
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298491
> You keep saying that Adobe is targeting the enterprise. Most
> enterprises I know are not using ColdFusion, and are using
> .NET because .Net is more "enterprisey". If they have money
> and want to invest in the JAVA technology, they will go for
> something like Websphere.
I didn't say they were successfully targeting the enterprise - although I
think they are, based on the sales I've seen - or that most enterprises are
using CF - I don't ever expect to see CF be the dominant web application
server. I said they're targeting the enterprise. I think that's fairly
self-evident, based on their pricing model. Again, though, it doesn't really
matter whether it's the dominant technology, to Adobe - the only thing that
matters to Adobe is whether they're maximizing their profit.
And, for what it's worth, I've seen several environments with CF on
WebSphere.
> ColdFusion is just not an enterprise ready technology, and it
> won't be until they at least support x64.
Very few enterprises are using x64 for production application servers, as
far as I can tell. Most enterprises, again as far as I can tell, are not
early adopters. The enterprises I'm working with, that are using CF, would
disagree with your characterization of CF as not "enterprise-ready". Your
observations may be different from mine, of course.
> ColdFusion is best aimed at SMBs IMHO. They are the ones
> that can make the most use of it, and they are the ones that
> I feel make up the bulk of Adobe's revenues for Cf.
Again, this is a matter of your opinion. Your opinion (and mine, for that
matter) are irrelevant, since neither of us are responsible for CF pricing
and licensing at Adobe.
I don't know why I bother responding to these threads, though. People have
been griping about CF pricing/marketing/evangelism since it was an Allaire
product. CF continues to be a relatively successful niche product, despite
everyone's prediction of imminent doom for over ten years. I wonder how many
people'll be using RoR in ten years. I wonder what Microsoft will have
replaced ASP.NET with in ten years. Whatever happened to poor old "classic"
ASP, anyway?
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Matt Quackenbush
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298489
On Feb 7, 2008 3:26 PM, Dave Watts wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Okay, I've stayed out of this ludicrous discussion until the above post came
through. Dave, preach on my friend! I could not possibly have stated it as
well as you just did. Thank you! :-)
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298488
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
You keep saying that Adobe is targeting the enterprise. Most enterprises I
know are not using ColdFusion, and are using .NET because .Net is more
"enterprisey". If they have money and want to invest in the JAVA
technology, they will go for something like Websphere.
ColdFusion is just not an enterprise ready technology, and it won't be until
they at least support x64.
ColdFusion is best aimed at SMBs IMHO. They are the ones that can make the
most use of it, and they are the ones that I feel make up the bulk of
Adobe's revenues for Cf.
Russ
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298487
> The more small-biz/enterprise ask CF by name equals The more
> jobs are for CF developers equals The more developers are to
> take on CF (versus PHP,RoR,.NET) equals The more small-biz
> ask CF by name equals The more Adobe sells CF servers
This is not necessarily true. Especially the last part. If you're using
shared hosting, it's not necessarily the case that more shared hosting
clients means more CF server licenses. It might be very likely in many
cases, though, I guess.
But even if it is true, it's not necessarily relevant to Adobe. What's
relevant to Adobe - or any company selling any product - is to maximize
profits on the products they sell. If that means selling 100 copies at $1
million apiece, or selling 1 million copies at $100 each, so be it.
Now, unless people at Adobe are throwing darts at a pricing chart while
blindfolded, they've presumably spent some time figuring out elasticity of
demand, support costs per product sale, etc. And, they've concluded that
they're better off targeting the enterprise. You may agree or disagree, but
pricing their products is their prerogative.
I don't think Adobe is interested in directly competing with free software.
I suspect they believe there's not much profit there.
> So, what is Adobe doing so the freelance developers like me
> have MORE customers that ask Coldfusion by name?
It isn't Adobe's job to make you successful at your business. That's your
job.
Personally, I would love to see Adobe doing all sorts of stuff like you
suggest. I'd love to see them give CF away. My company provides CF training,
among other things. But I don't expect Adobe to run their business to
benefit me, and I give them the benefit of the doubt that they've done their
best to maximize their own profits.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Brad Wood
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298485
Even though there are objections, I would be willing to accept a CF
class requiring the developer edition to be installed on all lab
machines. Keep in mind though that installation and configuration of
the application server might be outside of the scope of the curriculum
for that class if is an entry level course.
Regardless of the classroom talk though, my last post was more targeted
at the college students who are going to spend four years experimenting
in their dorm room writing apps in every language they can get their
hands on. These are the resume-holding people that graduate and go out
into the world and help drive up or down the numbers of available
programmers for a particular language. When I was in college learning
how to build web apps for the first time, I wanted something I could
actually put on the internet and tell my mom to go look at. ColdFusion
developer edition would not have been that answer for me. Without my
friend letting me use his server I would have certainly used my personal
site on the school server which only offered Perl and PHP. Why?
Because they were free.
I experimented with a number of Microsoft apps while I was in college
and graduated with some knowledge of them. Why? Because Microsoft
courted my school (along with any other educational institution) and
offered tons of free _fully functional_ Microsoft software for me to
play with for the duration of my student-hood.
If Adobe doesn't want to do that, I understand-- It is their decision.
But, I gotta' say as bitter-sweet as my feelings are for Microsoft, I
think that was a smart move on their part. I really, really want to see
large scale adoption of CF, Flex, Air, etc. That's why I am in favor of
anything which will help that.
~Brad
As a student you typically do not have to pay to be able to put up a
hosted
PHP page. Most universities give their students free web accounts and
most
of those accounts have access to PHP. At least that has been my
experience
with three major Universities here in Texas. There are of course
limitations to what you can do, for example I know the University of
Houston
provides the accounts, PHP, and even Oracle accounts but I do not think
they
provide a way for students to run PHP pages that connect to the Oracle
database.
I personally do not see why a class could not be taught using no more
than
the developer version of CF. Each workstation would have it loaded up
as
would the teacher's machine.
On Feb 7, 2008 1:56 PM, Raymond Camden <rcamden@gmail.com> wrote:
Author: Mark Fuqua
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298484
It is interesting, that while the developer community has been belly achin'
about prices for cf, Adobe has actually raised the price for enterprise 50%.
It might also be worth noting that cs3 web premium, which I recently
purchased (upgrade thankfully) is priced at 1600. Considerably higher than
cf standard.
Mark
We have seen an official response:
http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/buy/
:)
Will
> Not anyone who's going to tell you how to run your business, no. But
> you know that Ben Forta and the rest of the product evangelists are
> plugged into this list and other well-known CF resources, so
> presumably someone at Adobe has heard all of these criticisms before.
>
If all of this has been heard before, should've we have seen an official
response to this somewhere? I remember at the last CFUnited people brought
up that CF should be marketed better to universities. And they're like yea
yea we should... but they never did anything about it to my knowledge.
Russ
Author: Mike Francisco
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298482
As a freelance developer (I am sure many on this list are), my simple mind
that tells me that 'to CF or not to CF' boils down to this cycle:
The more small-biz/enterprise ask CF by name equals
The more jobs are for CF developers equals
The more developers are to take on CF (versus PHP,RoR,.NET) equals
The more small-biz ask CF by name equals
The more Adobe sells CF servers
But guess what? There's not a whole lot of small-biz/enterprise asking CF by
name. And I don't think anyone here will dispute that. If you check out
craigslist, dice, monster, etc... demand for PHP developers far out number
demand for CF developers. If you dispute that, you are in denial.
So, what is Adobe doing so the freelance developers like me have MORE
customers that ask Coldfusion by name?
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298483
> That would require a classroom with powerful enough computers
> that can run CF. That's a pretty large investment. I know
> in my university, all the students have laptops, so it would
> be a lot easier to have a shared server and have all of the
> students put their work there.
CF will run just fine on any laptop made in the last few years. I'm able to
run CF on my laptop, which has a Core Solo processor, 1 GB of RAM, and
Vista.
> It would also teach them more about what goes on in the real
> world ...
In the real world, people buy CF licenses. One CF Standard license would be
sufficient if you really needed a shared server. I'm not sure what the EDU
pricing is for that, but I imagine it's not too expensive - it'll probably
be cheaper than the dedicated server hardware needed.
> ... as most developers develop straight on the server, and
> a lot of times straight on the productions server.
Because people develop on production servers? That's a lousy justification
for classroom setup.
> Having each student install CF and IIS or apache on their own
> PC might be a bit of a pain, and laptops in general are not
> very good choice for running CF servers, although I know some
> people are doing it, including me.
You don't need a separate web server for development. It's very easy to
install CF using the built-in web server.
> Those who are just taking this as a class, might not appreciate
> their laptop slowing down because of CF though.
They could easily be taught how to manually start and stop services, I
think.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Will Swain
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298481
We have seen an official response:
http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/buy/
:)
Will
> Not anyone who's going to tell you how to run your business, no. But
> you know that Ben Forta and the rest of the product evangelists are
> plugged into this list and other well-known CF resources, so
> presumably someone at Adobe has heard all of these criticisms before.
>
If all of this has been heard before, should've we have seen an official
response to this somewhere? I remember at the last CFUnited people brought
up that CF should be marketed better to universities. And they're like yea
yea we should... but they never did anything about it to my knowledge.
Russ
Author: Raymond Camden
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298480
On Feb 7, 2008 2:29 PM, Russ <cflists@ruslansivak.com> wrote:
> That would require a classroom with powerful enough computers that can run
> CF. That's a pretty large investment. I know in my university, all the
> students have laptops, so it would be a lot easier to have a shared server
> and have all of the students put their work there. It would also teach them
> more about what goes on in the real world, as most developers develop
> straight on the server, and a lot of times straight on the productions
> server.
CF runs pretty well on even older machines. Remember this is just one
person hitting one app server.
>
> Having each student install CF and IIS or apache on their own PC might be a
> bit of a pain, and laptops in general are not very good choice for running
> CF servers, although I know some people are doing it, including me. Those
> who are just taking this as a class, might not appreciate their laptop
> slowing down because of CF though.
Um, if they are in school learning to be a web developer, than frankly
they need to deal with it. The same would apply to PHP as
well.
Author: Todd Rafferty
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298479
Setup a start/stop bat script to turn things off when you're not in class?
I think server setup SHOULD be part of the class IMHO.
On Feb 7, 2008 3:29 PM, Russ <cflists@ruslansivak.com> wrote:
> Having each student install CF and IIS or apache on their own PC might be
> a
> bit of a pain, and laptops in general are not very good choice for running
> CF servers, although I know some people are doing it, including me. Those
> who are just taking this as a class, might not appreciate their laptop
> slowing down because of CF though.
>
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298478
> If all of this has been heard before, should've we have seen
> an official response to this somewhere?
What would you expect their response to be, other than "we'll consider
this?"
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298477
That would require a classroom with powerful enough computers that can run
CF. That's a pretty large investment. I know in my university, all the
students have laptops, so it would be a lot easier to have a shared server
and have all of the students put their work there. It would also teach them
more about what goes on in the real world, as most developers develop
straight on the server, and a lot of times straight on the productions
server.
Having each student install CF and IIS or apache on their own PC might be a
bit of a pain, and laptops in general are not very good choice for running
CF servers, although I know some people are doing it, including me. Those
who are just taking this as a class, might not appreciate their laptop
slowing down because of CF though.
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298476
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
If all of this has been heard before, should've we have seen an official
response to this somewhere? I remember at the last CFUnited people brought
up that CF should be marketed better to universities. And they're like yea
yea we should... but they never did anything about it to my knowledge.
Russ
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298474
Or perhaps create a new license type - academic vs educational, which would
let you use the server as part of the classroom, but not to host the
university's own website for example.
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Aaron Rouse
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298475
As a student you typically do not have to pay to be able to put up a hosted
PHP page. Most universities give their students free web accounts and most
of those accounts have access to PHP. At least that has been my experience
with three major Universities here in Texas. There are of course
limitations to what you can do, for example I know the University of Houston
provides the accounts, PHP, and even Oracle accounts but I do not think they
provide a way for students to run PHP pages that connect to the Oracle
database.
I personally do not see why a class could not be taught using no more than
the developer version of CF. Each workstation would have it loaded up as
would the teacher's machine.
On Feb 7, 2008 1:56 PM, Raymond Camden <rcamden@gmail.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298472
> Another important thing about running a business is listening
> to your customers. If enough developers feel that this is a
> good idea and make their voice heard, perhaps Adobe will
> reconsider it.
That might be true in many cases. However, you're essentially asking them to
give something away that they're selling now. Generally, the way you
influence prices is by choosing to buy or not buy a product. If you tell
Adobe that they should lower the price, or give more product away, and you
continue to buy the product yourself, you probably won't convince them to
change their pricing model.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298466
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Another important thing about running a business is listening to your
customers. If enough developers feel that this is a good idea and make
their voice heard, perhaps Adobe will reconsider it.
Russ
Author: Raymond Camden
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298468
Flex is client side technology. Guess what - the "client" for CF,
which would be you running CF on your own machine, is also free.
Shoot, as it stands, CF is "more" free as you don't have to be a
student to run it on your own machine for nothing.
Now your argument stating that you would only learn it if you could
host it - I'm not sure I'd say thats a common belief - but you have to
pay for PHP hosting as well.
On Feb 7, 2008 12:03 PM, Brad Wood <bradwood@nationsholding.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
--
===========================================================================
Raymond Camden, Camden Media
Email : ray@camdenfamily.com
Blog : www.coldfusionjedi.com
AOL IM : cfjedimaster
Keep up to date with the community: http://www.coldfusionbloggers.org
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298452
> If someone from adobe sat down with me and gave me some
> constructive criticism on my business, I would definitely
> take it under consideration.
What makes you think that, over the last ten years that people have been
arguing about this, Allaire/Macromedia/Adobe didn't take it under
consideration and reject it?
> Why do you know someone?
Not anyone who's going to tell you how to run your business, no. But you
know that Ben Forta and the rest of the product evangelists are plugged into
this list and other well-known CF resources, so presumably someone at Adobe
has heard all of these criticisms before.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298451
If someone from adobe sat down with me and gave me some constructive
criticism on my business, I would definitely take it under consideration.
Why do you know someone?
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Josh Nathanson
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298450
> If they are making good money on it, and it's mostly from the enterprise
> sector, wouldn't it make sense to let the educational institutions have it
> for free? This way enterprise would have a better pool of talent, and are
> more likely to get CF/stick with CF in the coming years.
I don't have any good answers as to why the owners of CF haven't done some
of the obvious things that would improve its adoption, other than that they
haven't been "forced" to do so.
With Macromedia and now Adobe, their success as a whole is not dependent on
the success of CF, so I imagine they focus their marketing efforts on their
more popular product lines.
There are only so many person-hours to go around, and I imagine that any
product line that is profitable with essentially zero marketing effort is
not going to have additional person-hours assigned to it.
This is probably much less frustrating for Adobe than it is for us
developers.
-- Josh
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298449
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
If some guy from Adobe told you how to run your business, wouldn't that be a
bit presumptuous?
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Brad Wood
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298448
On a related note, according to James Ward from Adobe (who visited my
user group last night) the educational pricing for Flex is free.
I would definitely be in favor of similar educational pricing for CF. I
learned CF in college in my spare time, but NOT because of the developer
edition but rather due to a friend who owned a CF server and let me host
their for free. If it hadn't been for that there's no way I would have
bothered with CF when I couldn't actually use it for real on my personal
site to experiment with. I would have probably gone over to Perl or
PHP.
~Brad
If they are making good money on it, and it's mostly from the enterprise
sector, wouldn't it make sense to let the educational institutions have
it
for free? This way enterprise would have a better pool of talent, and
are
more likely to get CF/stick with CF in the coming years.
Look everyone has to make sacrifices in order to be competitive. MS
released SQL Express in response to MYSQL and PostgreSQL. Oracle
released
Oracle Lite. Even though this might've caused a hit for their sales of
SQL
Server standard and workgroup, they are probably getting more sales for
SQL
Server Enterprise, and less people moving to free platforms.
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298447
If they are making good money on it, and it's mostly from the enterprise
sector, wouldn't it make sense to let the educational institutions have it
for free? This way enterprise would have a better pool of talent, and are
more likely to get CF/stick with CF in the coming years.
Look everyone has to make sacrifices in order to be competitive. MS
released SQL Express in response to MYSQL and PostgreSQL. Oracle released
Oracle Lite. Even though this might've caused a hit for their sales of SQL
Server standard and workgroup, they are probably getting more sales for SQL
Server Enterprise, and less people moving to free platforms.
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Josh Nathanson
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298446
> >Well it's a bit hard for CF, because of the pricing model. CF is priced
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
All the evidence we can gather points to the fact that Allaire, Macromedia
and now Adobe are profitable with the ColdFusion pricing model exactly as it
stands. So, there's very little motivation to address their marketing
approach. If they were losing money on ColdFusion, I think you'd see them
either doing more marketing, or dropping the product line entirely.
-- Josh
Author: Mary Ann McIntosh
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298415
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
As I sit here, a newbie at learning Cold Fusion, I'm thinking back to the fact
that since I first got my taste of Dreamweaver and Cold Fusion back in 1999, I've
been a Zealot. I was taught Dreamweaver but only enough Cold Fusion (by my
Zealot Instructor) to learn how to do a mailback form. When I compared how clean
the code was to Active Server Pages, I was "done." Nothing runs as clean and
stable as Cold Fusion, with as deep a set of capabilities. The downside is that
it's so hard to find a place to learn it, unless one takes it upone oneself to do
so, which I finally have the time to do. Here I sit at 1:30AM, really too bleary
eyed to be typing.
I myself have some consternation at Adobe and Macromedia for their price points
on Cold Fusion and their unwillingness to make it more competative with .NET and
other technologies, and not making it more available to the academic community.
I don't know bupkis yet about Cold Fusion but I've seen what it CAN do; and IMHO
it's the Ferrarri of Web Application Development technology and the rest are
"also-rans."
It's too bad that it's such a hard sell to middle and lower level business.
Clean, stable, extensible, fits like a glove with Dreamweaver. So, what else can
anyone want? I hate working in anything else, although I do if I'm forced to.
Signed, The old Newbie Zealot.
Author: Aaron Rouse
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298409
I have not seen any evidence of this either and actually what I have seen is
CF developers looking for work and having a hard time finding things in
their areas. I can not speak for all companies but I know the one I do work
for went away from CF not because of lack of developers at all. Somehow
their head IT Architect got sold in the idea that CF was a dying language
and that becoming a MS "shop" was the way to go. I also know that some
people high up in the company got a little "annoyed" when MACR and Adobe did
some audits, not sure what the reasons for the "annoyance" was but I know it
happened and that sour taste just gave more fuel to the fire for change.
On Feb 6, 2008 1:51 PM, Dave Watts <dwatts@figleaf.com> wrote:
>
> I don't see any evidence that the number of CF developers is decreasing,
> either. The plural of anecdote is not data.
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298379
> I'm not sure that's entirely true. It may be the *best* way,
> but not the *only* way. Have we really gotten the word out as
> a community to Adobe in terms of what we are seeing and the
> trends that are happening?
I don't even know what that means. Purchasing a product doesn't make you a
member of a community, in any meaningful sense, unless that product is a
house. Who speaks for this "community"? What are "we" seeing? The trends
that you are seeing may not be the trends that I'm seeing.
> Sales numbers alone are just not going to give the whole picture.
I strongly suspect that they're the only part of the picture that Adobe's
interested in looking at.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Java is widely taught in schools because it is a good teaching language, and
the point of a CS degree is to learn how to program, not "how to program in
language X". CF is emphatically NOT suitable for this purpose. But any CS
student worth his salt can pick up CF very quickly.
I don't see any evidence that the number of CF developers is decreasing,
either. The plural of anecdote is not data.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298365
Isn't MS targeting enterprise customers as well? However, they made it easy
to get access to developers and tools. Giving away free copies to
universities, and having light versions of things available for free (SQL
Express, Visual Studio Express, etc).
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Mary Jo Sminkey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298361
>The only way you can "pressure" a company is to not buy its products.
I'm not sure that's entirely true. It may be the *best* way, but not the *only*
way. Have we really gotten the word out as a community to Adobe in terms of what
we are seeing and the trends that are happening? Sales numbers alone are just not
going to give the whole picture.
>And, for what it's worth, targeting the enterprise is what every Java vendor
>does - even the open-source ones. You don't see small businesses or
>freelancers building J2EE web applications. I wonder how Java's doing?
The difference is that Java is widely taught in schools, and people know if they
learn it they will have no trouble finding a job....thus, there is hardly a lack
of experienced developers for it. The reverse is true for CF....it is a rare
college that has classes for it, developers don't see it as a technology worthy
of learning or that will help them get a good job, and thus experienced coders
are harder and harder to find. Do you really think enterprises will keep using CF
if the number of developers that know it continue to drop? We're used to seeing
the posts about CF dying, etc. particularly from outside the community...but
we're hearing more and more from inside the community about problems finding
developers, companies having to switch to .NET, etc. due to lack of experienced
coders, and that just is not going to be something that strictly marketing to the
Enterprise is going to fix.
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298327
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
The only way you can "pressure" a company is to not buy its products.
And, for what it's worth, targeting the enterprise is what every Java vendor
does - even the open-source ones. You don't see small businesses or
freelancers building J2EE web applications. I wonder how Java's doing?
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Beru
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298317
Taken out of the "Crayola" case study:
"
*Macromedia Products:
*Five Macromedia ColdFusion Studio 4.5, 4 Macromedia ColdFusion Enterprise
4.5.1, Macromedia Flash, Dreamweaver, Dreamweaver UltraDev, Fireworks,
FreeHand
"
And this is just an example of the content of these case studies!
Really, either Adobe take out these slightly ;-) outdated pages, or they
revamp/update them a little... A prospect or IT who is shown this kind
of page will run away from CF, IMHO!!! (I just hope this doesn't reflect the
commitment level of Adobe...)
Albert
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Judith Dinowitz
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298313
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Hey, if any of you would like to write some of those articles for Fusion
Authority, we'd be happy to put them out there on the website.
But - as one of the admins here, I do have to remind that this thread is OT for
this technical mailing list and should be moved to CF-OT.
Judith
Author: s. isaac dealey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298304
> The problem with that Dave is that even the Enterprise customers
> won't be able to find developers eventually, if the small business
> and educational use is left behind. We're already starting to see
> this developer shortage and eventually companies are going to get
> tired of having to train developers when they can use other platforms
> and pull from a readily-available pool of trained and experienced
> people.
It may not be considered the most forward thinking answer, but Adobe
also has a pretty long history of pulling their fat out of the frier and
of managing to popularize technologies that nobody wants. PDF for
example when it was first introduced was given the response of
"documents that look the same on different machines? Who the hell needs
that?"
--
s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch
isn't it time for a change?
ph: 503.236.3691
http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog
Author: William Seiter
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298303
Yes, I had the same reaction to it when I was required to take it a few
years back (got sent back to jail..ahem..college during the .com fallout in
2001). Even though I had taken Basic during my JrHS and HS years several
times (by choice, not grade), I still couldn't 'test out' of the class
because it was QBasic (now a MS language and no longer based on line
numbers)(remember 'goto 100'? ah the days...)
Over drinks and cigars I probably would start rambling on about how the
teacher who taught it didn't even know what it was...but I digress.
William
--
William E. Seiter
Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
Enter passkey: goldengrove
Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
http://William.Seiter.com
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
I don't know about that. Is there an actual university out there that's
peddling QBasic? I mean I've done my share of programming in it, but it's
so 1980's.
C++/Java should remain as the core languages that people learn. ColdFusion
should be offered as part of an elective course. When I went to school, I
took Java as an elective, and also WWW programming with Perl. Perl is a
fine language, but it's not really meant for web programming. Neither is
Java/C++/C#, etc. CF is and has been from the beginning a language for web
programming, and that's how it should be taught.
As far as teaching it as a core language, I'm sorry but it just doesn't make
sense. The same way that visual basic wouldn't make a good core language
course. Students should learn the hard way to do things first, and then
learning CF would be a breeze. If students learned CF as their core
language, they would have trouble expanding their skillset with Java for
example, because CF just makes things too easy for the programmer.
Russ
Author: Mary Jo Sminkey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298300
>Adobe doesn't appear to be especially
>interested in selling to the small business market, but rather to the
>enterprise market. According to the little sales information I can find,
>this strategy appears to be working for them.
The problem with that Dave is that even the Enterprise customers won't be able to
find developers eventually, if the small business and educational use is left
behind. We're already starting to see this developer shortage and eventually
companies are going to get tired of having to train developers when they can use
other platforms and pull from a readily-available pool of trained and experienced
people. I just wonder if there isn't more that we as a community can do to
pressure Adobe or at least try to make them see the error of this approach.
Seriously, there is simply no way they will be successful long-term targeting
solely an Enterprise market and that's just going to hurt all of us in the end.
Author: Mike Francisco
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298299
As a CF developer for many years, I often feel as if I work twice as hard
selling my services to a potential small-biz client, than the closest PHP
developer. Not only am I selling myself, I also *have to* sell CF.
From my potential client's perspective, they really don't care much on how
easy it would be for me, the CF developer, to code their project. They do
care about (1) how much it will cost them on top of my fee; (2) how easy it
would be to find help in case I am not available.
We CF developers and zealots, of course, could make all the justification in
the world to make the case of the points above in favor of CF. That is not
the problem.
The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep on selling the
advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't Adobe work twice as hard to reach
out to the small businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or
at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or the RoR guy)?
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: s. isaac dealey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298289
> Good idea. They do have quite a few case studies already, but you
> can never have too many.
>
> http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/customers/
>
> -- Josh
Thanks Josh. I hadn't really looked through them recently, though I was
thinking specifically about case studies of companies moving to CF from
competing technologies like PHP or MS SharePoint. It was my impression
(though I could be wrong) that their case studies were generally
confined to new projects rather than having any focus on platform
transitions. Showing platform transitions would be good cases for
showing comparative strength of the technology to give people an idea of
areas where CF may be better suited for a specific project. Having more
of that focus out there might produce better results with regard to what
we perceive as an overall "bad rep" for ColdFusion where people are
always "leaving in droves" from a technology that's been around since
before all the others were even conceived and yet shows no particular
signs of going anywhere any time soon. :P Just wasn't sure if I'd made
that notion clear in my previous post. :)
--
s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch
isn't it time for a change?
ph: 503.236.3691
http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog
Author: Aaron Rouse
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298288
I took a class that had QBasic within it, I think I took that class 4-5
years ago and would imagine it is still there. I have yet to see an
ASP.NETclass, I know at the current University that I take classes
they do have
some PHP courses. I also know that one of the nearby community colleges was
offering some CF classes about 3 years ago because I recall them looking for
instructors at the time.
On Feb 5, 2008 6:44 PM, Russ <cflists@ruslansivak.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298286
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
I don't know about that. Is there an actual university out there that's
peddling QBasic? I mean I've done my share of programming in it, but it's
so 1980's.
C++/Java should remain as the core languages that people learn. ColdFusion
should be offered as part of an elective course. When I went to school, I
took Java as an elective, and also WWW programming with Perl. Perl is a
fine language, but it's not really meant for web programming. Neither is
Java/C++/C#, etc. CF is and has been from the beginning a language for web
programming, and that's how it should be taught.
As far as teaching it as a core language, I'm sorry but it just doesn't make
sense. The same way that visual basic wouldn't make a good core language
course. Students should learn the hard way to do things first, and then
learning CF would be a breeze. If students learned CF as their core
language, they would have trouble expanding their skillset with Java for
example, because CF just makes things too easy for the programmer.
Russ
Author: Craigsell
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298285
CF is great but CF coupled with Flex is even better. We have a lot of Java
developers here who don't think much of CF but they kinda gulp when they can
see what a Flex front end and a CF backend can do. Flex is starting to make
inroads here since it is easy to make killer apps with it and it is helping
bolster CF. Unfortunately it is all still pricey unless you are an
enterprise house (as we are).
Warren Koch
Author: William Seiter
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298283
I think that having it as an alternative to QBasic would be great. Budding
programmers could choose which course they want. QBasic, which really isn't
used anywhere, but teaches the basics, or, ColdFusion, which is used
everywhere, has realworld applications, and can be used to teach the basics.
William
--
William E. Seiter
Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
Enter passkey: goldengrove
Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
http://William.Seiter.com
>Adobe should also push to have ColdFusion taught as part of the curriculum
>(at least as an elective) instead of ASP.NET, or at least as an
alternative.
>They should provide free and easy educational materials that teachers can
>use to teach CF.
Yes, absolutely. It simply has to be out there more for people to learn, and
to be cheap or ideally free to learn. A free development version simply
doesn't cut it, given what the competition has to offer.
Author: Gerald Guido
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298282
>> Not only am I selling myself, I also *have to* sell CF.
Ain't that the truth. The sad fact is that CF and/or CF developers have a
less than favorable reputation. I seen it and heard it all over the place
*for years*. CF is not taken seriously in a lot of circles that I have
traveled. Even though I have been developing in CF for about 10 years and it
is my stack of choice, I often avoid mentioning that I am a CF developer in
some professional circles because I am sick of seeing people roll their eyes
or hearing things like Cf doesn't scale, Myspace doesn't use CF etc etc.
On a recent Yahoo chat I came to CF's defense "CF is a fine language". "
The response was "And the punch line is?"
And then I made a case for CF and I got clobbered. Yeah, Yahoo chatters are
*ssholes... but the sentiment is there and it is pervasive.
The fact is... I know CF is an amazing stack, *you* know it..But it seems
that (good portion of) the rest of the IT world doesn't seem to think so.
The more I learn languages like Java and C# the more powerful CF becomes to
me. I mean I really love CF but damn if I don't take a lot of abuse for it.
On Feb 5, 2008 4:41 PM, CFMike <cfmike813@gmail.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Aaron Rouse
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298279
I'd be curious as to how many enterprise customers of CF they pick up per
year vs how many are lost.
On Feb 5, 2008 3:54 PM, Dave Watts <dwatts@figleaf.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Mary Jo Sminkey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298278
>Adobe should also push to have ColdFusion taught as part of the curriculum
>(at least as an elective) instead of ASP.NET, or at least as an alternative.
>They should provide free and easy educational materials that teachers can
>use to teach CF.
Yes, absolutely. It simply has to be out there more for people to learn, and to
be cheap or ideally free to learn. A free development version simply doesn't cut
it, given what the competition has to offer.
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298273
> The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep
> on selling the advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't
> Adobe work twice as hard to reach out to the small
> businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or
> at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or
> the RoR guy)?
This comes up all the time, but it's a pointless discussion. What Adobe
should or should not do is beyond your control, and obviously the people at
Adobe don't agree with you on this. Adobe doesn't appear to be especially
interested in selling to the small business market, but rather to the
enterprise market. According to the little sales information I can find,
this strategy appears to be working for them.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners
http://training.figleaf.com/
WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers!
http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/
Author: Aaron Rouse
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298269
Nice, wonder how accurate the list is there, I see we are on there but I
know we have not bought CF for our data centers in a long time especially
since they are outsourced. We also are moving around from CF.
On Feb 5, 2008 3:25 PM, Josh Nathanson <pc@oakcitygraphics.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: CFMike
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298270
As a CF developer for many years, I often feel as if I work twice as hard
selling my services to a potential small-biz client, than the closest PHP
developer. Not only am I selling myself, I also *have to* sell CF.
From my potential client's perspective, they really don't care much on how
easy it would be for me, the CF developer, to code their project. They do
care about (1) how much it will cost them on top of my fee; (2) how easy it
would be to find help in case I am not available.
We CF developers and zealots, of course, could make all the justification in
the world to make the case of the points above in favor of CF. That is not
the problem.
The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep on selling the
advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't Adobe work twice as hard to reach
out to the small businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or
at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or the RoR guy)?
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Russ
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298266
Well it's a bit hard for CF, because of the pricing model. CF is priced per
Server, meanwhile all the other technologies you mention can be hosted for
(relatively) free. .NET makes it up by selling more Windows Server
licenses, and PHP and RoR are free.
Microsoft has done a good job advertising to universities, where they pretty
much give away a copy of Visual Studio to every student. This is something
that is free for them, and it helps push the universities to teach .NET, and
C#, etc.
Once students graduate, they will bring these skills to the workplace, and
MS will make money by selling more Windows Servers (for hosting), and Visual
Studio (for development).
Although Adobe has free development editions, the educational editions are
not free (I think they should be). I believe every university should run
their websites in CF as a marketing tool. (Mine recently converted from CF
4.5 to PHP. If they were using MX+, I doubt they would've converted).
Adobe should also push to have ColdFusion taught as part of the curriculum
(at least as an elective) instead of ASP.NET, or at least as an alternative.
They should provide free and easy educational materials that teachers can
use to teach CF.
I would love to volunteer to teach CF in my alma mater, but I wouldn't even
know where to start in terms of teaching materials. Having a lab with a CF
server on every computer is going to require powerful hardware, and running
a developer edition on a shared server is not allowed as per Adobe.
Maybe if Adobe got their act together, we'd have a lot more graduates
actually knowing what CF is and not thinking that it's a piece of crap that
most people remember from the v 4.5 days.
Just my $0.02
Russ
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Josh Nathanson
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298265
> They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching
> to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case
> studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts
> mentioned.
Good idea. They do have quite a few case studies already, but you can never
have too many.
http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/customers/
-- Josh
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: CFMike
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298263
As a CF developer for many years, I often feel as if I work twice as hard
selling my services to a potential small-biz client, than the closest PHP
developer. Not only am I selling myself, I also *have to* sell CF.
From my potential client's perspective, they really don't care much on how
easy it would be for me, the CF developer, to code their project. They do
care about (1) how much it will cost them on top of my fee; (2) how easy it
would be to find help in case I am not available.
We CF developers and zealots, of course, could make all the justification in
the world to make the case of the points above in favor of CF. That is not
the problem.
The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep on selling the
advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't Adobe work twice as hard to reach
out to the small businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or
at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or the RoR guy)?
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Kevin Aebig
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298251
I live in a city of about 250,000 and once I find a new job, I'll end coding
in a different language and there's nothing I can do about it. I've tried
finding positions that will let me work remotely, but with justification, a
lot of companies aren't comfortable with that and I'm not willing to move
just to keep programming in Coldfusion.
A sad reality...
!k
>I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be "What can Adobe do
>to promote ColdFusion?" CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has
>actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a
>few years now. I just want to see the articles that say "Yeah, we're
>migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and
>integrated platform."
The problem a lot of people are mentioning as well is lack of developers. It
becomes a vicious circle...developers jump to another platform because there
are more jobs, so it becomes harder for employers to find ones that are
experienced in CF, so they switch, which makes jobs even harder to find,
etc. So it really has to be a two-pronged attack...getting more people to
want to use CF for their sites, but also getting more developers to learn
it. And of course, trying to keep hosting options as well. I really do think
the cost of the server is an issue, when it comes to getting more people on
board. Certainly at the Enterprise-level it's not an issue (or shouldn't
be), but for small-time developers that want to run their own box, it's a
hard sell. And these are the folks that are needed to really grow support
for the platform. I ran into that just this week with someone that was in
college and wanted to learn my software and put up a store using his own
box. I might have been willing to do some kind of educational discount, but
the cost of ColdFusion pretty much made the whole discussion moot. I'm
hoping eventually Railo or SmithProject might become more viable as low-cost
options...but even if they do, they're likely to be options only those of us
that are already invested in CF will know about. I imagine this is something
a lot of us that sell CF applications run into...if you sell a .Net or PHP
application, it's not a big deal who someone is hosting with, as the vast
majority of hosts offer these. If you have a CF application though, if a
normal merchant finds you through Google or some other application/script
listing site, 9 times out of 10 they are not going to be able to run your
application because their host doesn't run CF (or they are
using...gasp...GoDaddy!) So before you can even sell you on your
application, you have to sell them on switching hosts. It's a tough
situation, for sure. It's one thing I really liked with the Railo licensing,
which works with the way their server can configure different "webs" as
separate entities and then license each individually, versus a more costly
full-priced server. It's a great low-cost entry that is attractive to a
small developer, while still requiring someone that is using the server to
host many sites to pay a reasonable price.
Author: Mary Jo Sminkey
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298247
>I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be "What can Adobe do
>to promote ColdFusion?" CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has
>actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a
>few years now. I just want to see the articles that say "Yeah, we're
>migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and
>integrated platform."
The problem a lot of people are mentioning as well is lack of developers. It
becomes a vicious circle...developers jump to another platform because there are
more jobs, so it becomes harder for employers to find ones that are experienced
in CF, so they switch, which makes jobs even harder to find, etc. So it really
has to be a two-pronged attack...getting more people to want to use CF for their
sites, but also getting more developers to learn it. And of course, trying to
keep hosting options as well. I really do think the cost of the server is an
issue, when it comes to getting more people on board. Certainly at the
Enterprise-level it's not an issue (or shouldn't be), but for small-time
developers that want to run their own box, it's a hard sell. And these are the
folks that are needed to really grow support for the platform. I ran into that
just this week with someone that was in college and wanted to learn my software
and put up a store using his own box. I might have been willing to do some kind
of educational discount, but the cost of ColdFusion pretty much made the whole
discussion moot. I'm hoping eventually Railo or SmithProject might become more
viable as low-cost options...but even if they do, they're likely to be options
only those of us that are already invested in CF will know about. I imagine this
is something a lot of us that sell CF applications run into...if you sell a .Net
or PHP application, it's not a big deal who someone is hosting with, as the vast
majority of hosts offer these. If you have a CF application though, if a normal
merchant finds you through Google or some other application/script listing site,
9 times out of 10 they are not going to be able to run your application because
their host doesn't run CF (or they are using...gasp...GoDaddy!) So before you can
even sell you on your application, you have to sell them on switching hosts. It's
a tough situation, for sure. It's one thing I really liked with the Railo
licensing, which works with the way their server can configure different "webs"
as separate entities and then license each individually, versus a more costly
full-priced server. It's a great low-cost entry that is attractive to a small
developer, while still requiring someone that is using the server to host many
sites to pay a reasonable price.
Author: Judith Dinowitz
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298239
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
We use them too. They are excellent - good prices, fast shipping.
Judith
Author: Adam Churvis
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298198
> week they profiled Bill Santille of Uline, a 'Shipping Supply
> Specialist' if Google has it right. (http://tinyurl.com/2fsj74)
Yeah, they're a great company with excellent customer service and quality
products. I use them, as do clients of mine. You should all get your
packaging and shipping supplies from them.
Respectfully,
Adam Phillip Churvis
President
Productivity Enhancement
Author: Jim Wright
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298191
> Too late. Looks like they've already converted ( http://www.uline.com/ ).
>
I don't think there has been any conversion there, or any CF...looking
in the wayback machine, that site has been the same ASP classic stuff
since around 2002...
http://web.archive.org/web/20020528223503/www.uline.com/
Author: Todd Rafferty
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298187
Too late. Looks like they've already converted ( http://www.uline.com/ ).
On Feb 5, 2008 9:23 AM, Cutter (CFRelated)
<cold.fusion@cutterscrossing.com>
wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
--
http://www.web-rat.com/
Author: Cutter (CFRelated)
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:55071#298183
This morning I read something disturbing. Weekly I get InformationWeek,
which really caters more to CIOs and SysAds more than developers. That's
part of why what I read disturbed me so much.
They run a weekly column titled "CIO Values," in which they profile some
CIO or CTO from a variety of industries. Someone who has provided value
to their company, and the companies they've worked with before. This
week they profiled Bill Santille of Uline, a 'Shipping Supply
Specialist' if Google has it right. (http://tinyurl.com/2fsj74)
In the article they have the interviewee's 'Three top initiatives' that
they are working towards. In Mr Santille's he states, in his second
initiative:
"Rewrite entire sales/customer service application by replacing
green-screen application with Java..."
But, his third initiative states:
"Replace current Web-based front end for Internet transactions with
Microsoft .Net code. The existing platform is written in ColdFusion..."
OK, from an integration standpoint it would definitely make more sense
to stay with ColdFusion, being that it's J2EE native. So, where is this
guy's thinking? Well, he probably doesn't know any better. What's worse,
it's published in a nationally distributed magazine to IT executives.
Hey Adobe! Somebody needs to talk to this guy....
--
Steve "Cutter" Blades
Adobe Certified Professional
Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer
_____________________________
http://blog.cutterscrossing.com
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May 24, 2012
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