ColdFusion vs Net or PHP - need arguement help

Our company, a large nationwide organization is creating an RFP to redo our entire site from scratch for agnecies to review.  The marketing folks are asking the agencies to recommend a application platform as a part of the RFP.  I know most agencies use .net or php, but that will be for their advantage and not our existing CF staff. I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road before. I don't want us to switch technologies just beacuse it's what the agencies use. Why aren't there more agencies using CF? D

A more important question might be why is your company outsourcing the development of their site when they have an existing development staff? It could be that they don't respect, or trust, your team enough to allow you to do the work, or contribute to the discussion? If they're willing to outsource, then it's unlikely that they're going to listen to your arguments. I've run into this before and it's extremely frustrating. Either way, your best argument will probably come if you own your own CF servers. "We've already invested in ColdFusion, so why change?". andy Our company, a large nationwide organization is creating an RFP to redo our entire site from scratch for agnecies to review.  The marketing folks are asking the agencies to recommend a application platform as a part of the RFP.  I know most agencies use ..net or php, but that will be for their advantage and not our existing CF staff. I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road before. I don't want us to switch technologies just beacuse it's what the agencies use. Why aren't there more agencies using CF? D

I can understand your comments, but that's not the case at all. They are looking for an agencies that can work the marketing and branding perspective. The development would be a very small peice of the puzzle which is an point I plan on making clear. We don't own our CF servers.  We utilize a hosting company. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>>I need a list of reputable agencies that use CF..... Color me stupid but what do you mean by "agnecies"? What kind of example are you looking for? G ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Is that a crayola color Gerald? *grin*  I was going to ask the same question hehehe Eric /*-----Original Message----- /* /*Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:25 AM /*To: CF-Talk /*Subject: Re: CF vs .Net or PHP - need arguement help /* /*>>I need a list of reputable agencies that use CF..... /* /*Color me stupid but what do you mean by "agnecies"? /* /*What kind of example are you looking for? /* /*G /* /* /* /*> Our company, a large nationwide organization is creating an RFP to redo /*our /*> entire site /*> from scratch for agnecies to review.  The marketing folks are asking the /*> agencies to /*> recommend a application platform as a part of the RFP.  I know most /*> agencies use /*> ..net or php, but that will be for their advantage and not our existing /*CF /*> staff. /*> /*> I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road before. I /*> don't want us /*> to switch technologies just beacuse it's what the agencies use. Why /*aren't /*> there more /*> agencies using CF? /*> /*> D /*> /*> /*> /* /*

Ben Forta maintains a list of agencies/companies using CF.  Not sure how up to date it is though. http://www.forta.com/cf/using/ -- Josh ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Usually companies don't just spend money for the heck of it.  What is it they are trying to do by re-writing the site from scratch?  Do they perceive it as slow or outdated, or are they looking for more features of some kind? ~Brad Our company, a large nationwide organization is creating an RFP to redo our entire site from scratch for agnecies to review.  The marketing folks are asking the agencies to recommend a application platform as a part of the RFP.  I know most agencies use ..net or php, but that will be for their advantage and not our existing CF staff. I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road before. I don't want us to switch technologies just beacuse it's what the agencies use. Why aren't there more agencies using CF? D

They're rebranding and reorganizing from scratch. It's driven by the Marketing folks and they want my feedback on what we should use, but the angencies talk about that there's more, less expensive developers out there with these other technologies.  They're just trying to sell what their staff knows so they can land the account.  I need a list of reputable agencies that use CF and not just a CF development house. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

The company which I used to work for (it has a very large and very complex CF application written to manage HR and disability data for Fortune 500 companies) outsourced to India.  It was not nearly as successful as one would have hoped.  The people looked good on paper (many with MS in Computer Science) but their sense of quality is a little bit different from what is expected here.  It is also extremely difficult communicating with them, even despite the time difference.  In the end, we spent more time (both theirs and experienced staff here) helping them finish projects.  Many projects were overdue and over budget. This company we outsourced to is a well known and well respected company as well. On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:19 PM, coldfusion.developer@att.net coldfusion.developer@att.net <coldfusion.developer@att.net> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

That's a pretty common thread with outsourcing to other countries and has spearheaded the move back to using US developers in many cases.  Even folks who speak English just fine run into "cultural" differences in concepts that cause communication issues.  It has nothing to do with their ability to program, they just don't understand American culture and we just don't get their culture. Eric /*-----Original Message----- /* /*Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:27 AM /*To: CF-Talk /*Subject: Re: CF vs .Net or PHP - need arguement help /* /*The company which I used to work for (it has a very large and very complex /*CF application written to manage HR and disability data for Fortune 500 /*companies) outsourced to India.  It was not nearly as successful as one /*would have hoped.  The people looked good on paper (many with MS in /*Computer /*Science) but their sense of quality is a little bit different from what is /*expected here.  It is also extremely difficult communicating with them, /*even /*despite the time difference.  In the end, we spent more time (both theirs /*and experienced staff here) helping them finish projects.  Many projects /*were overdue and over budget. This company we outsourced to is a well /*known /*and well respected company as well. /* /* /*On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:19 PM, coldfusion.developer@att.net /*coldfusion.developer@att.net <coldfusion.developer@att.net> wrote: /* /*> They're rebranding and reorganizing from scratch. It's driven by the /*> Marketing /*> folks and they want my feedback on what we should use, but the angencies /*> talk /*> about that there's more, less expensive developers out there with these /*> other /*> technologies.  They're just trying to sell what their staff knows so /*they /*> can /*> land the account.  I need a list of reputable agencies that use CF and /*not /*> just /*> a CF development house. /*> /*> >Usually companies don't just spend money for the heck of it.  What is /*it /*> >they are trying to do by re-writing the site from scratch?  Do they /*> >perceive it as slow or outdated, or are they looking for more features /*> >of some kind? /*> > /*> >~Brad /*> > /*> >Our company, a large nationwide organization is creating an RFP to redo /*> >our entire site /*> >from scratch for agnecies to review.  The marketing folks are asking /*the /*> >agencies to /*> >recommend a application platform as a part of the RFP.  I know most /*> >agencies use /*> >..net or php, but that will be for their advantage and not our existing /*> >CF staff. /*> > /*> >I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road before. I /*> >don't want us /*> >to switch technologies just beacuse it's what the agencies use. Why /*> >aren't there more /*> >agencies using CF? /*> > /*> >D /*> /*> /* /*

coldfusion.developer@att.net coldfusion.developer@att.net wrote: > They're rebranding and reorganizing from scratch. It's driven by the Marketing > folks and they want my feedback on what we should use Your marketing people will want new colors, new layout and changes to the navigation structure of the site. Do they also want: - new workflows for content management? - retraining for every editror? - new content? - old content migrated to the new system? I really don't understand why rebranding and reorganizing would require rebuilding from scratch. Jochem

On Wednesday 02 Jul 2008, coldfusion.developer@att.net coldfusion.developer@att.net wrote: > angencies talk about that there's more, less expensive developers out there > with these other technologies.   Uh huh, but they'll take longer to get stuff done than the more expensive CF developers. -- Tom Chiverton **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Tom, Good .NET developers are more expensive than a good CF developer, or at least that has been my experience. That is not the argument I would make though, I would use developer productivity. You can query a database and output the result with two tags or two lines of code. Compare that ease of use with any other language including the latest media darlings like Ruby and Python. Hope this helps, David ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:19 PM, coldfusion.developer@att.net coldfusion.developer@att.net <coldfusion.developer@att.net> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Our company went through a new CIO & CTO, both were very skeptical of ColdFusion coming in. After working with them showing some of the apps and the time it took to produce they began to see the value. It also helps that hey respect me as an individual and see me as technology fan not just a ColdFusion bigot. Regardless, I clearly explained and went through the real cost savings the came from what ColdFusion offered us. I did not focus on CFML or the general CF faster RAD etc talk. I focused on real world examples of how we leveraged ColdFusion internally to save money or develope more application in paralell. I focused in on exact platform features we didn't need to build and maintain ourselves like JMS integrations, file manipulation, charting and webservices. As a side note since I love pimpin the OS side of CFML if you are worried about cost and not utilizing the platform, checking out alternative CFML engines like Open BlueDragon or Railo might be an option. As for reputable agencies, Kroger and Hasbro come to mind as well as GE and Bank of America (though if I recall they really don't do greenfield development with CFML). Not to mention, seemingly, every branch of the government; you could look through all the different gov't agencies that use ColdFusion as well. Ping me off list if you want to talk more about what I've done in Kroger to help CF flurish, heck I'd even be happy to take some personal time and talk with executives there if they want to talk to other companies using CFML. Really at the end of the day in simple terms I evangilised,  spoke up and showed I was proud of platform I use and I did so confidently without hesitation. So many times I see folks so proud to be a CF developer but then around others like Java devs or CIO types they cower in a corner overshadowed by thier "superiors." Bah I say stand up and be proud ColdFusion is a great platform, CFML is a great language . Oh and if all else fails Kroger is hiring send me a resume (seriosuly anyone interested send me a resume, Mid-Senior preferably) ;) Adam!

>>Bah I say stand up and be proud ColdFusion is a great platform, CFML is a great language Adam, You ROCK!! BEST Regards, Gerald the PROUD CFer PS Gawd do I love CF.  He more I learn the more I love it. On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Adam Haskell <a.haskell@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Usually companies don't just spend money for the heck of it. If only that were true. I see that happening ALL THE TIME. Often, when a new CIO comes in, he wants to switch to the systems he knows and trusts, even if there are working solutions in place, just so he can put his "stamp of ownership" on them. As a consultant, of course, sometimes this works in my favor, but it's often a stupid move. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

> I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road > before. I don't want us to switch technologies just beacuse > it's what the agencies use. Why aren't there more agencies > using CF? If you're an "agency", you want to maximize labor costs (to the extent that you can still win contracts) and minimize asset costs, because asset costs don't make you any money unless you're a reseller. The agency would rather have a $100k contract that purely involves labor, than a $100k contract that is 80% labor costs and 20% infrastructure costs. For that matter, they'd rather have an $80k contract that doesn't involve infrastructure costs, than a >$80 contract that does. Their interests are obviously not aligned with yours. You need to be able to make the argument that you're going to have to maintain the systems these agencies build, and so they need to work with your platform. Lots of companies do this, whether they use CF or not. For example, many organizations have standardized on a specific platform, and any web applications have to fit in this platform. They do this not because one platform is obviously superior to another (although ideally they've chosen the best platform for their use) but because they need to simplify maintenance, and managing one platform is easier than managing multiple platforms. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- We ran into a similar situation (before I joined the company) where A new CEO wanted a new web presence. They outsourced it to a company that used a eZpublish (http://ez.no/ ) built on the *AMP stack . It is a great site but I am the only one in the company that has any experience with Apache, Mysql or PHP so they were SOL when they needed any changes until I came onboard. Basically nobody in house could support it. So any time they needed to add something or change something other than content they had to outsource that as well... Ergo: more $$$$$ HTH G -- "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" -- Mario Andretti

I agree with Dave and "agencies" not looking out for a company that they represents best interests. I often see a consultant brought in, who also pushes their own agenda. Thats why you really have to have someone in your organization that understands and keeps up with the latest trends of technology, so you can hold them accountable for their recommendations. As far as the server deal, the biggest reason I see for companies pushed into .Net or PHP is cost. You can expand your server cluster with less software overhead. On the flip side ColdFusion offers quicker development time, and if you had to get new developers the code is much easier to read. Way too often I see companies hire the PHP norm just to be stuck with an app they can't modify cause they don't understand whats going on. To me I'd value mobility over cost, within reason of course. You really should decide what type of investment your site is worth to your company. Since your on shared hosting, right away I'd say using PHP or .Net for cheaper cluster overhead isn't, and probably won't ever be on your roadmap. Rest is developers preference, so I'd suggest letting your preference be known to those making the decision. As far as who is using CF... the largest one I can recall off the top of my head would be MySpace. I beleive the exact specs would be CF6 with a little .Net script integration to handle automated server tasks.

Actually, MySpace launched a new version in the last few weeks, and it's ASP.NET.  Maybe there's still some CF on the back-end somewhere, but as far as it looks to the public, they're a .NET shop now. Scott ---------------- Now playing on iTunes: Goldfinger - Stalker http://foxytunes.com/artist/goldfinger/track/stalker > As far as who is using CF... the largest one I can recall off the top of my head would be MySpace. I beleive the exact specs would be CF6 with a little .Net script integration to handle automated server tasks. -- ----------------------------------------- Scott Brady http://www.scottbrady.net/

Wow.  I can't help you much with any agencies, but I would recommend figuring out what their biggest fears are and catering to those.  For instance, if they think using another language would be faster to deploy time, talk to them about CF's rapid development capabilities.   If they are concerned about the developer costs, talk to them about how fewer developers can achieve more work with ColdFusion's built-in functionality and how your in-house staff is already trained in that language and the inner workings of your company.   ~Brad [mailto:coldfusion.developer@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:19 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs .Net or PHP - need arguement help They're rebranding and reorganizing from scratch. It's driven by the Marketing folks and they want my feedback on what we should use, but the angencies talk about that there's more, less expensive developers out there with these other technologies.  They're just trying to sell what their staff knows so they can land the account.  I need a list of reputable agencies that use CF and not just a CF development house.

Ok, I guess "for the heck of it" was a pretty broad statement on my part.  I basically wanted to get to the root of the change.  Even a new CIO has a reason for his shake up, even if it's ridiculous.  If knows why they want change, then he can better address their needs.   For instance, when you walk on a car lot, the first thing the salesman probably does is figure out whether you are looking to save gas, or have the coolest looking car on the block, etc.  If D wants to "sell" himself to his marketing department, he needs to know what they are looking for. Or alternatively, what they are afraid of. ~Brad > Usually companies don't just spend money for the heck of it. If only that were true. I see that happening ALL THE TIME.

> If they are concerned about the developer costs, talk to them > about how fewer developers can achieve more work with > ColdFusion's built-in functionality and how your in-house > staff is already trained in that language and the inner > workings of your company. The key part of this is the last part. You know the business rules of your company. And, you know CF. If they rewrite applications, you'll either need to be retrained, or they'll need to find new developers. It's easy to find new developers who know PHP or .NET or whatever, not so easy for those developers to absorb your business rules, which are often not documented especially well. It's usually cheaper to stick with the technology you have, than to switch - even if you'd switch to a superior technology. For example, if you were a .NET shop, I'd advise you not to migrate your apps to CF even though CF is superior in my opinion. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

>>It's easy to find new developers who know PHP or .NET or whatever, not so easy for those developers to absorb your business rules, which are often not documented especially well. Dave is spot on. Most of our internal processes are done though our Intranet. I mean just about *everything* except for our Accounting software... and since it uses MSSQL we tap into that for reporting. Platform is a minor consideration compared to the labyrinth of business rules and processes. I have been here for 1.5 years and I am still learning how everything works. G -- "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" -- Mario Andretti