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ColdFusion vs Net or PHP - need arguement help
Author: David Fekke
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308592
Tom,
Good .NET developers are more expensive than a good CF developer, or at least
that has been my experience.
That is not the argument I would make though, I would use developer productivity.
You can query a database and output the result with two tags or two lines of
code. Compare that ease of use with any other language including the latest media
darlings like Ruby and Python.
Hope this helps,
David
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Gerald Guido
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308576
>>Bah I say stand up and be proud ColdFusion is a great platform, CFML is a
great language
Adam, You ROCK!!
BEST Regards,
Gerald the PROUD CFer
PS Gawd do I love CF. He more I learn the more I love it.
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Adam Haskell <a.haskell@gmail.com> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Adam Haskell
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308573
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:19 PM, coldfusion.developer@att.net
coldfusion.developer@att.net <coldfusion.developer@att.net> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Our company went through a new CIO & CTO, both were very skeptical of
ColdFusion coming in. After working with them showing some of the apps and
the time it took to produce they began to see the value. It also helps that
hey respect me as an individual and see me as technology fan not just a
ColdFusion bigot. Regardless, I clearly explained and went through the real
cost savings the came from what ColdFusion offered us. I did not focus on
CFML or the general CF faster RAD etc talk. I focused on real world examples
of how we leveraged ColdFusion internally to save money or develope more
application in paralell. I focused in on exact platform features we didn't
need to build and maintain ourselves like JMS integrations, file
manipulation, charting and webservices. As a side note since I love pimpin
the OS side of CFML if you are worried about cost and not utilizing the
platform, checking out alternative CFML engines like Open BlueDragon or
Railo might be an option.
As for reputable agencies, Kroger and Hasbro come to mind as well as GE and
Bank of America (though if I recall they really don't do greenfield
development with CFML). Not to mention, seemingly, every branch of the
government; you could look through all the different gov't agencies that use
ColdFusion as well. Ping me off list if you want to talk more about what
I've done in Kroger to help CF flurish, heck I'd even be happy to take some
personal time and talk with executives there if they want to talk to other
companies using CFML. Really at the end of the day in simple terms I
evangilised, spoke up and showed I was proud of platform I use and I did so
confidently without hesitation. So many times I see folks so proud to be a
CF developer but then around others like Java devs or CIO types they cower
in a corner overshadowed by thier "superiors." Bah I say stand up and be
proud ColdFusion is a great platform, CFML is a great language . Oh and if
all else fails Kroger is hiring send me a resume (seriosuly anyone
interested send me a resume, Mid-Senior preferably) ;)
Adam!
Author: Eric Roberts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308537
That's a pretty common thread with outsourcing to other countries and has
spearheaded the move back to using US developers in many cases. Even folks
who speak English just fine run into "cultural" differences in concepts that
cause communication issues. It has nothing to do with their ability to
program, they just don't understand American culture and we just don't get
their culture.
Eric
/*-----Original Message-----
/*
/*Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:27 AM
/*To: CF-Talk
/*Subject: Re: CF vs .Net or PHP - need arguement help
/*
/*The company which I used to work for (it has a very large and very complex
/*CF application written to manage HR and disability data for Fortune 500
/*companies) outsourced to India. It was not nearly as successful as one
/*would have hoped. The people looked good on paper (many with MS in
/*Computer
/*Science) but their sense of quality is a little bit different from what is
/*expected here. It is also extremely difficult communicating with them,
/*even
/*despite the time difference. In the end, we spent more time (both theirs
/*and experienced staff here) helping them finish projects. Many projects
/*were overdue and over budget. This company we outsourced to is a well
/*known
/*and well respected company as well.
/*
/*
/*On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:19 PM, coldfusion.developer@att.net
/*coldfusion.developer@att.net <coldfusion.developer@att.net> wrote:
/*
/*> They're rebranding and reorganizing from scratch. It's driven by the
/*> Marketing
/*> folks and they want my feedback on what we should use, but the angencies
/*> talk
/*> about that there's more, less expensive developers out there with these
/*> other
/*> technologies. They're just trying to sell what their staff knows so
/*they
/*> can
/*> land the account. I need a list of reputable agencies that use CF and
/*not
/*> just
/*> a CF development house.
/*>
/*> >Usually companies don't just spend money for the heck of it. What is
/*it
/*> >they are trying to do by re-writing the site from scratch? Do they
/*> >perceive it as slow or outdated, or are they looking for more features
/*> >of some kind?
/*> >
/*> >~Brad
/*> >
/*> >Our company, a large nationwide organization is creating an RFP to
redo
/*> >our entire site
/*> >from scratch for agnecies to review. The marketing folks are asking
/*the
/*> >agencies to
/*> >recommend a application platform as a part of the RFP. I know most
/*> >agencies use
/*> >..net or php, but that will be for their advantage and not our
existing
/*> >CF staff.
/*> >
/*> >I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road before. I
/*> >don't want us
/*> >to switch technologies just beacuse it's what the agencies use. Why
/*> >aren't there more
/*> >agencies using CF?
/*> >
/*> >D
/*>
/*>
/*
/*
Author: Eric Roberts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308536
Is that a crayola color Gerald? *grin* I was going to ask the same question
hehehe
Eric
/*-----Original Message-----
/*
/*Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:25 AM
/*To: CF-Talk
/*Subject: Re: CF vs .Net or PHP - need arguement help
/*
/*>>I need a list of reputable agencies that use CF.....
/*
/*Color me stupid but what do you mean by "agnecies"?
/*
/*What kind of example are you looking for?
/*
/*G
/*
/*
/*
/*> Our company, a large nationwide organization is creating an RFP to redo
/*our
/*> entire site
/*> from scratch for agnecies to review. The marketing folks are asking the
/*> agencies to
/*> recommend a application platform as a part of the RFP. I know most
/*> agencies use
/*> ..net or php, but that will be for their advantage and not our existing
/*CF
/*> staff.
/*>
/*> I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road before. I
/*> don't want us
/*> to switch technologies just beacuse it's what the agencies use. Why
/*aren't
/*> there more
/*> agencies using CF?
/*>
/*> D
/*>
/*>
/*>
/*
/*
Author: Scott Brady
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308526
Actually, MySpace launched a new version in the last few weeks, and
it's ASP.NET. Maybe there's still some CF on the back-end somewhere,
but as far as it looks to the public, they're a .NET shop now.
Scott
----------------
Now playing on iTunes: Goldfinger - Stalker
http://foxytunes.com/artist/goldfinger/track/stalker
> As far as who is using CF... the largest one I can recall off the top of my
head would be MySpace. I beleive the exact specs would be CF6 with a little .Net
script integration to handle automated server tasks.
--
-----------------------------------------
Scott Brady
http://www.scottbrady.net/
Author: Tom Chiverton
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308508
On Wednesday 02 Jul 2008, coldfusion.developer@att.net
coldfusion.developer@att.net wrote:
> angencies talk about that there's more, less expensive developers out there
> with these other technologies.
Uh huh, but they'll take longer to get stuff done than the more expensive CF
developers.
--
Tom Chiverton
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Author: Tom Smith
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308485
I agree with Dave and "agencies" not looking out for a company that they
represents best interests. I often see a consultant brought in, who also pushes
their own agenda. Thats why you really have to have someone in your organization
that understands and keeps up with the latest trends of technology, so you can
hold them accountable for their recommendations.
As far as the server deal, the biggest reason I see for companies pushed into
.Net or PHP is cost. You can expand your server cluster with less software
overhead. On the flip side ColdFusion offers quicker development time, and if you
had to get new developers the code is much easier to read. Way too often I see
companies hire the PHP norm just to be stuck with an app they can't modify cause
they don't understand whats going on. To me I'd value mobility over cost, within
reason of course.
You really should decide what type of investment your site is worth to your
company. Since your on shared hosting, right away I'd say using PHP or .Net for
cheaper cluster overhead isn't, and probably won't ever be on your roadmap. Rest
is developers preference, so I'd suggest letting your preference be known to
those making the decision.
As far as who is using CF... the largest one I can recall off the top of my head
would be MySpace. I beleive the exact specs would be CF6 with a little .Net
script integration to handle automated server tasks.
Author: Jochem van Dieten
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308478
coldfusion.developer@att.net coldfusion.developer@att.net wrote:
> They're rebranding and reorganizing from scratch. It's driven by the
Marketing
> folks and they want my feedback on what we should use
Your marketing people will want new colors, new layout and changes to
the navigation structure of the site. Do they also want:
- new workflows for content management?
- retraining for every editror?
- new content?
- old content migrated to the new system?
I really don't understand why rebranding and reorganizing would require
rebuilding from scratch.
Jochem
Author: Gerald Guido
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308477
>>It's easy to find
new developers who know PHP or .NET or whatever, not so easy for those
developers to absorb your business rules, which are often not documented
especially well.
Dave is spot on.
Most of our internal processes are done though our Intranet. I mean just
about *everything* except for our Accounting software... and since it uses
MSSQL we tap into that for reporting. Platform is a minor consideration
compared to the labyrinth of business rules and processes. I have been here
for 1.5 years and I am still learning how everything works.
G
--
"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough"
-- Mario Andretti
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308475
> If they are concerned about the developer costs, talk to them
> about how fewer developers can achieve more work with
> ColdFusion's built-in functionality and how your in-house
> staff is already trained in that language and the inner
> workings of your company.
The key part of this is the last part. You know the business rules of your
company. And, you know CF. If they rewrite applications, you'll either need
to be retrained, or they'll need to find new developers. It's easy to find
new developers who know PHP or .NET or whatever, not so easy for those
developers to absorb your business rules, which are often not documented
especially well. It's usually cheaper to stick with the technology you have,
than to switch - even if you'd switch to a superior technology. For example,
if you were a .NET shop, I'd advise you not to migrate your apps to CF even
though CF is superior in my opinion.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: Gerald Guido
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308474
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
We ran into a similar situation (before I joined the company) where A new
CEO wanted a new web presence. They outsourced it to a company that used a
eZpublish (http://ez.no/ ) built on the *AMP stack . It is a great site but
I am the only one in the company that has any experience with Apache, Mysql
or PHP so they were SOL when they needed any changes until I came onboard.
Basically nobody in house could support it. So any time they needed to add
something or change something other than content they had to outsource that
as well... Ergo: more $$$$$
HTH
G
--
"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough"
-- Mario Andretti
Author: Josh Nathanson
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308471
Ben Forta maintains a list of agencies/companies using CF. Not sure how up
to date it is though.
http://www.forta.com/cf/using/
-- Josh
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Brad Wood
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308470
Ok, I guess "for the heck of it" was a pretty broad statement on my
part. I basically wanted to get to the root of the change. Even a new
CIO has a reason for his shake up, even if it's ridiculous. If knows
why they want change, then he can better address their needs.
For instance, when you walk on a car lot, the first thing the salesman
probably does is figure out whether you are looking to save gas, or have
the coolest looking car on the block, etc. If D wants to "sell" himself
to his marketing department, he needs to know what they are looking for.
Or alternatively, what they are afraid of.
~Brad
> Usually companies don't just spend money for the heck of it.
If only that were true. I see that happening ALL THE TIME.
Author: Brad Wood
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308469
Wow. I can't help you much with any agencies, but I would recommend
figuring out what their biggest fears are and catering to those. For
instance, if they think using another language would be faster to deploy
time, talk to them about CF's rapid development capabilities.
If they are concerned about the developer costs, talk to them about how
fewer developers can achieve more work with ColdFusion's built-in
functionality and how your in-house staff is already trained in that
language and the inner workings of your company.
~Brad
[mailto:coldfusion.developer@att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:19 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF vs .Net or PHP - need arguement help
They're rebranding and reorganizing from scratch. It's driven by the
Marketing
folks and they want my feedback on what we should use, but the angencies
talk
about that there's more, less expensive developers out there with these
other
technologies. They're just trying to sell what their staff knows so
they can
land the account. I need a list of reputable agencies that use CF and
not just
a CF development house.
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308468
> I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road
> before. I don't want us to switch technologies just beacuse
> it's what the agencies use. Why aren't there more agencies
> using CF?
If you're an "agency", you want to maximize labor costs (to the extent that
you can still win contracts) and minimize asset costs, because asset costs
don't make you any money unless you're a reseller. The agency would rather
have a $100k contract that purely involves labor, than a $100k contract that
is 80% labor costs and 20% infrastructure costs. For that matter, they'd
rather have an $80k contract that doesn't involve infrastructure costs, than
a >$80 contract that does.
Their interests are obviously not aligned with yours. You need to be able to
make the argument that you're going to have to maintain the systems these
agencies build, and so they need to work with your platform. Lots of
companies do this, whether they use CF or not. For example, many
organizations have standardized on a specific platform, and any web
applications have to fit in this platform. They do this not because one
platform is obviously superior to another (although ideally they've chosen
the best platform for their use) but because they need to simplify
maintenance, and managing one platform is easier than managing multiple
platforms.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: Qing Xia
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308467
The company which I used to work for (it has a very large and very complex
CF application written to manage HR and disability data for Fortune 500
companies) outsourced to India. It was not nearly as successful as one
would have hoped. The people looked good on paper (many with MS in Computer
Science) but their sense of quality is a little bit different from what is
expected here. It is also extremely difficult communicating with them, even
despite the time difference. In the end, we spent more time (both theirs
and experienced staff here) helping them finish projects. Many projects
were overdue and over budget. This company we outsourced to is a well known
and well respected company as well.
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:19 PM, coldfusion.developer@att.net
coldfusion.developer@att.net <coldfusion.developer@att.net> wrote:
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Gerald Guido
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308466
>>I need a list of reputable agencies that use CF.....
Color me stupid but what do you mean by "agnecies"?
What kind of example are you looking for?
G
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Dave Watts
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308465
> Usually companies don't just spend money for the heck of it.
If only that were true. I see that happening ALL THE TIME.
Often, when a new CIO comes in, he wants to switch to the systems he knows
and trusts, even if there are working solutions in place, just so he can put
his "stamp of ownership" on them. As a consultant, of course, sometimes this
works in my favor, but it's often a stupid move.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
Author: coldfusion.developer
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308464
I can understand your comments, but that's not the case at all.
They are looking for an agencies that can work the marketing and branding
perspective. The development would be a very small peice of the puzzle which
is an point I plan on making clear.
We don't own our CF servers. We utilize a hosting company.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: coldfusion.developer
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308462
They're rebranding and reorganizing from scratch. It's driven by the Marketing
folks and they want my feedback on what we should use, but the angencies talk
about that there's more, less expensive developers out there with these other
technologies. They're just trying to sell what their staff knows so they can
land the account. I need a list of reputable agencies that use CF and not just
a CF development house.
----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----
Author: Andy Matthews
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308461
A more important question might be why is your company outsourcing the
development of their site when they have an existing development staff?
It could be that they don't respect, or trust, your team enough to allow you
to do the work, or contribute to the discussion? If they're willing to
outsource, then it's unlikely that they're going to listen to your
arguments. I've run into this before and it's extremely frustrating.
Either way, your best argument will probably come if you own your own CF
servers. "We've already invested in ColdFusion, so why change?".
andy
Our company, a large nationwide organization is creating an RFP to redo our
entire site from scratch for agnecies to review. The marketing folks are
asking the agencies to recommend a application platform as a part of the
RFP. I know most agencies use ..net or php, but that will be for their
advantage and not our existing CF staff.
I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road before. I don't
want us to switch technologies just beacuse it's what the agencies use. Why
aren't there more agencies using CF?
D
Author: Brad Wood
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308460
Usually companies don't just spend money for the heck of it. What is it
they are trying to do by re-writing the site from scratch? Do they
perceive it as slow or outdated, or are they looking for more features
of some kind?
~Brad
Our company, a large nationwide organization is creating an RFP to redo
our entire site
from scratch for agnecies to review. The marketing folks are asking the
agencies to
recommend a application platform as a part of the RFP. I know most
agencies use
..net or php, but that will be for their advantage and not our existing
CF staff.
I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road before. I
don't want us
to switch technologies just beacuse it's what the agencies use. Why
aren't there more
agencies using CF?
D
Author: coldfusion.developer
Short Link: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:56908#308459
Our company, a large nationwide organization is creating an RFP to redo our
entire site
from scratch for agnecies to review. The marketing folks are asking the agencies
to
recommend a application platform as a part of the RFP. I know most agencies use
.net or php, but that will be for their advantage and not our existing CF staff.
I need some guidance from someone that's been down this road before. I don't want
us
to switch technologies just beacuse it's what the agencies use. Why aren't there
more
agencies using CF?
D
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