Official ColdFusion IDE announced

Ben just announced it. Sign up for access to the beta (or whatever) at http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Bolt

Don't forget the one for CF9 as well. http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Centaur On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Michael Dinowitz < mdinowit@houseoffusion.com> wrote: > Ben just announced it. Sign up for access to the beta (or whatever) at > http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Bolt

>Don't forget the one for CF9 as well. >http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Centaur "What features are in Centaur? Language Enhancements ... CFFINALLY and CFCONTINUE " Finally.. cffinally. It is about time ;-)

Beautiful. Is this essentially an "official" CFEclipse then? Does Mark work for Adobe now? =P Warm regards, Jordan Michaels Vivio Technologies http://www.viviotech.net/ Open BlueDragon Steering Committee Adobe Solution Provider Michael Dinowitz wrote: > Ben just announced it. Sign up for access to the beta (or whatever) at > http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Bolt

The rumors I've heard are that this is a "from the ground up build". It is intended to work best with CF9, as most of it's best features are connected to the new tools in CF9. =] -- Alan Rother Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX 7 Developer Manager, Phoenix Cold Fusion User Group, AZCFUG.org

Arg!!!!  The hoops one must jump though to get this.  Am impatiently awaiting approval.  I keep hitting "Get New Mail" over and over again. ;-) Wil Genovese ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

These three will be worth every penny. Object Relational Mapping auto-configuration Application Code Generation Code assist for tags, functions, variables, and components The way that some editors offers code assist for external libraries (Aptana) is awesome. Having Code complete for CFC's and UDF's will be a God send. I am hoping that the Application Code Generation includes form generation and is configurable/or uses templates of some sort. I simply *cannot wait* to see what the ORM features look like. I am with Wil..... the wait is killing me. G On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Michael Dinowitz < mdinowit@houseoffusion.com> wrote: > Ben just announced it. Sign up for access to the beta (or whatever) at > http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Bolt

I wonder just how much the "commercial" release is going to cost?  I can't see spending more than $50 for a new IDE. Matthew Williams Geodesic GraFX

Well.... They still sell HomeSite 5.5 for $99 on the Adobe Store Best Guess it'll be around $100 - $150 considering DW is $399 =] -- Alan Rother Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX 7 Developer Manager, Phoenix Cold Fusion User Group, AZCFUG.org

ORM would be nice since CF9 is supposed to include Hibernate. Application code generation...maybe. Depends on how configurable it is as there are a number of different frameworks out there. I don't think it would work very well for Adobe to say "this is the one true framework". The rest of the description is pretty...meh. <sarcasm>Syntax highlight in an IDE? Wow! </sarcasm> If this leads to a really well polished productive IDE, that's great. But I'd expect some things from a commerical IDE that I don't see here, like code refactoring. When I make a change to a function in one of my cfc's, say change an argument name, I want to see everywhere in my project that calls that function and show me where the argument changes need to be made. Still, I'm hopeful that this will encourage Adobe to go the route of having a commerical IDE and a free and/or open source version of CF. Judah > I wonder just how much the "commercial" release is going to cost?  I > can't see spending more than $50 for a new IDE. > > > Matthew Williams > Geodesic GraFX

> ORM would be nice since CF9 is supposed to include Hibernate. > Application code generation...maybe. Depends on how configurable it > is as there are a number of different frameworks out there. I don't > think it would work very well for Adobe to say "this is the one true > framework". The rest of the description is pretty...meh. <sarcasm>Syntax > highlight in an IDE? Wow! </sarcasm> I'm not on the beta, but I'd be surprised if the code generation features include any kind of support for frameworks other than the ones built-in to CF like the Hibernate features and Application.cfc. It would be nice if they were able to design an external DSL that would allow us to add support for our own frameworks in the same sort of way that we've been able to add support for new tags to the code hints in previous IDEs for a while now. I can imagine a system in which we could provide an XML file or maybe a bundle of XML and related files in a specific directory describing how to gen code for our own framework and that would allow the IDE to pick it up and execute the code generation for whatever we're using personally. That may not be in Bolt or at least not yet. But I would really expect Adobe's tools to be one way or the other either just for the CF native features or designed to allow custom gen'ing templates. -- s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch isn't it time for a change?      ph: 781.769.0723 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog

> I'm not on the beta, but I'd be surprised if the code generation > features include any kind of support for frameworks other than the ones > built-in to CF like the Hibernate features and Application.cfc. In today's demo, support for assorted non-Adobe frameworks was mentioned briefly, but I didn't catch any details. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

The rest of the description is pretty...meh. <sarcasm>Syntax highlight in an IDE? Wow! </sarcasm> Hell, my Notepad replacement (Notepad++ ) does code completion and Syntax highlighting for CF. But I suspect that being an Adobe product, Bolt will be finely crafted piece of software worthy of the Adobe name. >>But I'd expect some things from a commerical IDE that I don't see here, like code refactoring Ditto. Or even Open source offerings for that matter. Products like MyEclipse, NetBeans, MS Visual Whatever, and the various PHP editors I have used always leave me feel wanting. G ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

If it costs more than $0 I'll carry on using cfeclipse, as will most people I suspect. I wonder just how much the "commercial" release is going to cost?  I can't see spending more than $50 for a new IDE. Matthew Williams Geodesic GraFX

which is why it's nice to have options :) i'll take a look at the features and the price tag and make a choice at that point. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I don't think most people are using cfeclipse. It's not a very comfortable environment for a lot of people, myself included. I'd love to see statistics, but I'm betting less than a third of the community is on it. Free is nice, but comfort is better. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I am in the same boat as you, do not find it comfortable.  Do you think the comfort issue is because of Eclipse itself though?  I am wondering just how good can they get it when building on that.  Although I suppose Flex Builder is a good example of how good they can get things. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Michael Dinowitz < mdinowit@houseoffusion.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

would those with FlexBuilder get a discount on Bolt (if it is not free)?? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 6:49 AM, Aar ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Most people don't use cfeclipse - from a recent tour of developer interviews (quite a wide field from all over the UK), not one person used it - few had even heard of it. Most of them either used Dreamweaver of some edition, Homesite or some generic text editors! ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I know what you mean Michael.  It took me a long while to get comfy in CFEclipse.  Now I use it all the time.  It was the switch to CFEclipse that freed me from Windows. Wil Genovese On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Michael Dinowitz < mdinowit@houseoffusion.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

My main complaints about cfeclipse are the same as my complaints about dreamweaver. It's too darn slow! Using Homesite I can switch between projects a hundred times faster, which is critical to me as I tend to work on so many different things throughout the day. Other than that I like most of the extra features cfeclipse offers, I still can't make use of it though... =] -- Alan Rother Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX 7 Developer Manager, Phoenix Cold Fusion User Group, AZCFUG.org

I only switched to Eclipse earlier this year, hell I was still using an ancient copy of CF-Studio 5. I've always hated Dreamweaver for writing code and never switched despite actually having a licensed copy on my machine for years (though not any more). I'm VERY glad I did finally make the switch though and it didn't take long to get used to, a few weeks at most. Any official IDE that's based on top of Eclipse is going to be similar in many ways, being similar in price is the only way I'll switch to be honest. As you say Wil, it's also great to be able to use a PC or a Mac and swap between the two often, as I do. Craig. I know what you mean Michael.  It took me a long while to get comfy in CFEclipse.  Now I use it all the time.  It was the switch to CFEclipse that freed me from Windows. Wil Genovese On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Michael Dinowitz < mdinowit@houseoffusion.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I've used CFEclipse for a long time now... But I agree with Michael. When all the features and price is announced, I'll be able to check out the features. Ultimately, if it seems that it would be "comfortable" and help me be a little more productive (sometimes comfort could do that)... I wouldn't mind paying a bit. Nice to have choices too. Thanks, Yves Arsenault "Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend". --Martin Luther King, Jr. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Michael Dinowitz < mdinowit@houseoffusion.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I was just wondering if Bolt (base on Eclipse) could play nice along   side CFEclipse?   That is something I will have to try.  After once   you have Eclipse everything else is a plugin on top. I also wonder if Bolt will be fairly Eclipse version independent.   That way when Eclipse upgrades we can upgrade Eclipse and put Bolt on   top.  Hmmm....  Lots of wondering to do until I can get my copy to   play with. Wil Genovese One man with courage makes a majority. -Andrew Jackson A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well. On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:08 PM, Yves Arsenault wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I would imagine that it would act like any other Plugin. I am sure that it would incorporate the existing feature so it would be an upgrade or you would have to uninstall your existing Adobe CF plugin. One thing to note is that you can right click on a file and say "Edit with" and chose an editor. I often open CFM files with Aptana to work with xhtml. G ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

So based on this comment I am curious what is your interest level in Bolt? Adam On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Michael Dinowitz < mdinowit@houseoffusion.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>>So based on this comment I am curious what is your interest level in Bolt? As I like to put it: "All of everything, twice, yesterday, to go please". But then again I am a bit of an IDE junkie. G! > So based on this comment I am curious what is your interest level in Bolt? > > Adam > > -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com "Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them. My mother cleans them." -- Rita Rudner

> >>So based on this comment I am curious what is your interest level in > >> Bolt? > As I like to put it: "All of everything, twice, yesterday, to go please". See the capital bits of http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/tomc/entry/women, reminds me a lot of clients :-) -- Tom Chiverton Helping to professionally extend best-of-breed fine-grained mission-critical real-time e-commerce **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

>>It's not a very comfortable environment for a lot of people, myself included. I'd love to see statistics, but I'm betting less than a third of the community is on it. Free is nice, but comfort is better. Right. I tried Eclipse once, and found it about 10 times more complicated than CF Studio, and 10 times less powerful.

> Right. I tried Eclipse once, and found it about 10 times more > complicated than CF Studio, and 10 times less powerful. How long did you try it for ? -- Tom Chiverton, memeber, CFEclipse mafia **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

>>How long did you try it for ? Long enough to make sure that the problem was not with me, but with the product.

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:26 AM, Claude Schneegans < schneegans@internetique.com> wrote: >  >>How long did you try it for ? > > Long enough to make sure that the problem was not with me, but with the > product. > You did it wrong. -- I have failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my life. I love my wife. And I wish you my kind of success.

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 6:24 AM, Claude Schneegans < schneegans@internetique.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- You did it wrong. -- I have failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my life. I love my wife. And I wish you my kind of success.

Claude Schneegans wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- 10 times huh? That's interesting. Personally, I too was daunted by Eclipse at first glance. I loaded it up, got the intro screen, and thought to myself: "Okay.... what now?" It was unfamiliar, and I didn't know how to use it at all, let alone productively or, god forbid, "comfortably". It took me roughly a week to figure out how to use it productively (get CFEclipse installed, find out how to edit my files, etc), and quite a while after that to get to the point of being "comfortable" with it. It's price and it's platform independence were major driving factors for me, and kept me motivated to learn how to use it. If you don't have those or other motivators, I can see why some folks don't get past the point of "the confusing interface". Honestly, however, once you do, it's pretty sweet. I've been using it for years now. I personally think Mark Drew and the other contributers to CFEclipse deserve huge snaps for their efforts in this area. Cheers to you. Warm regards, Jordan Michaels Vivio Technologies http://www.viviotech.net/ Open BlueDragon Steering Committee Adobe Solution Provider

When people ask me about changing over to CFEclipse, I say, "You'll love it and never want to use [insert other IDE name here] again. But you'll hate it for at first -- probably about a week." I agree that it takes a commitment to using it -- I forced myself to not use another editor for a week. I'm so glad I did. I love CFEclipse. -KJ ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

That has been my experience with any IDE change.  I still did not like CFEclipse after my 1-2 month forced onto myself trial period. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Kris Jones <kris.jones2@verizon.net>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> When people ask me about changing over to CFEclipse, I say, "You'll > love it and never want to use [insert other IDE name here] again. But > you'll hate it for at first -- probably about a week." I agree that it > takes a commitment to using it -- I forced myself to not use another > editor for a week. I'm so glad I did. I love CFEclipse. I used Eclipse for about 6 months at a job in Portland OR. At the end of 6 months, the search features were still making my life hell on an almost daily basis, and there still wasn't anything in Eclipse that was making my life any easier than Dreamweaver. And this is coming from someone who at one time made fairly similar comments about Dreamweaver. The first 2 or 3 times I tried Dreamweaver I didn't care for it. It wasn't until I think DW8 that I finally found it workable for me and today it's an improvement over Homesite. And DW is still pretty imperfect, but it's the least problematic tool I've found thus far. -- s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch isn't it time for a change?      ph: 781.769.0723 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog

You really didn't like the search feature? It's one of the few things that I actually DO like about Eclipse. > When people ask me about changing over to CFEclipse, I say, "You'll > love it and never want to use [insert other IDE name here] again. But > you'll hate it for at first -- probably about a week." I agree that it > takes a commitment to using it -- I forced myself to not use another > editor for a week. I'm so glad I did. I love CFEclipse. I used Eclipse for about 6 months at a job in Portland OR. At the end of 6 months, the search features were still making my life hell on an almost daily basis, and there still wasn't anything in Eclipse that was making my life any easier than Dreamweaver. And this is coming from someone who at one time made fairly similar comments about Dreamweaver. The first 2 or 3 times I tried Dreamweaver I didn't care for it. It wasn't until I think DW8 that I finally found it workable for me and today it's an improvement over Homesite. And DW is still pretty imperfect, but it's the least problematic tool I've found thus far. -- s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch isn't it time for a change?      ph: 781.769.0723 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog

It is one of the things I do not like although admittedly it has gotten much better since the version Isaac would have been using during that time frame. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I'll tell you what - once I FOUND the searching tools I started to like them  I bet many people do not know about CTRL+h to do searches across these: Across multiple files Across multiple Projects Across your entire workspace Across one or more Working Sets Across multiple select files in the project view Plus it does RegEx and if you dare full search/replace across the same sets. Yes, Eclipse has a big learning curve, but once you learn it's really good. Is Eclipse for everyone? No.  We have designers that do a little CF code and there is no way I'd try to make them switch to Eclipse.  Myself as a strict programmer I found the switch to be painful and beneficial.  Also, if you have not tried Eclipse/CFEclipse in the past year give it another try. The newer versions have improved greatly. Wil Genovese On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Andy Matthews <lists@commadelimited.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

That is the search that I do not like and actually one thing I never understood is why that is not just an option within CTRL-F  In DW on the Find/Replace screen you can search within: Selected Text Current Document Open Documents Folder Selected Files in a Site(Project) Entire Site(Project) Plus you have matching of case, ignoring of whitespace and use of regular expressions available. So it not is a lack of features when I compare the two in regards to their search functionality but more of how they work.  Plus up until recent versions(not sure of time frame) but Eclipse did not do the return of files and placement in the code like it does do today but DW has been doing for years.  That actually was a show stopper for me but obviously no longer is since Eclipse has improved on that.  Although will admit searching across multiple sites in DW would be nice but that is because how only one of my applications is structured. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Wil Genovese <juggler@visi.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I had a major issue with the search and replace where i did a mass replace and the text I was replacing with would get shifted over a few characters to the poit where after a few replaces, it was replace something a few words down.  I do miss DW searching and replaces...very elegant.  And for those that claim that eclispe is somehow a leaner and cleaner program, I find it just as slow and bloated (if not moreso) than DW. Eric ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Eric Roberts wrote: > I had a major issue with the search and replace where i did a mass replace > and the text I was replacing with would get shifted over a few characters to > the poit where after a few replaces, it was replace something a few words > down. But the solution for that is well known: always search (and replace) backwards. It is exactly the same as manipulating list or array elements in a loop in ColdFusion. Jochem

How would you search backwards...as a matter of fact, why does it matter how I search and replace in an IDE...isn't that kind of the point of having an ide so i don't have to do all the stupid stuff you have to do in code?  I think it is one of the many reasons why Eclispe is not ready for prime time.  It's not a very user friendly search feature...I would go as far asa say it absoluty sucks. Eric ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> You really didn't like the search feature? It's one of the few things > that I actually DO like about Eclipse. Umm... it forced me to "drill down" and then close files to figure out how many false-positives the search had produced... As compared to Dreamweaver, wherein I hit "search", and IMMEDIATELY see how many false positives there are, without moving a hair with the mouse or keyboard. Then in addition it started failing to find things that were in fact in the code when doing a multi-file search, which I'd never seen in DW and there wasn't a "search in open files" option. So no... it was at best limiting and impractical and at worst unreliable. I've heard that it's improved since then, but nobody's demanded I use it since then, so I haven't gotten around to having another look. :) -- s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch isn't it time for a change?      ph: 781.769.0723 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog

I didn't like Eclipse at first either. It is like all acquired tastes: Fickle and highly subjective. Just like developers themselves. I was a hard core "You'll take my copy of CFStudio from me when you pry my cold dead fingers from my mouse and key board." user until last year. I was all over the ASP and PHP for Homesite websites. I even contributed an add-on for PHP. http://wilk4.com/asp4hs/php4hs.htm http://wilk4.com/asp4hs/default.htm It was the third try that did the trick. I forced myself to stick with it. It took me a few days to get reasonably productive with it and a week after that it was "Whoa!". Between CFEclipse, The Adobe Plugin, Aptana, WST, DB tools, Quantum (and PHPEclipse) my Eclipse install is such that I don't miss CF Studio hardly at all. Granted it took few months to get there. @Ike I am the same with DW. No programable short cut keys, no deal. DW CS4 is awesome BTW. The live code view is like FireBug in real time. I do keep CF Studio handy for search and other things it does well. G! On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Kris Jones <kris.jones2@verizon.net> wrote: > When people ask me about changing over to CFEclipse, I say, "You'll > love it and never want to use [insert other IDE name here] again. But > you'll hate it for at first -- probably about a week." I agree that it > takes a commitment to using it -- I forced myself to not use another > editor for a week. I'm so glad I did. I love CFEclipse. > > -KJ -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com "Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them. My mother cleans them." -- Rita Rudner

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Jordan Michaels <jordan@viviotech.net> wrote: > Personally, I too was daunted by Eclipse at first glance. I loaded it > up, got the intro screen, and thought to myself: "Okay.... what now?" It > was unfamiliar, and I didn't know how to use it at all, let alone > productively or, god forbid, "comfortably". One of the big differences between Eclipse and, say, Homesite or CFStudio is that Eclipse is project-based and the others are file-based. When I installed CFEclipse for the first time I was thinking...umm...where are my files? How the *bleep* do I actually get to edit my stuff? Eclipse really presumes a certain development strategy. It happens to be a good one, in my opinion, but if that's not how you do it, then it can be difficult. It presumes that you pull your code onto your machine, that you work on projects, develop locally, test, then push your changes back. If you are working in a situation where a number of developers are working on a single code base that's on a remote server (as I was when I first tried it out) and you are modifying/testing on that remote server, its not nearly as obvious how to do that in Eclipse. Eclipse definitely rewards a certain style of development, I think. You can use it in other setups, but it is not immediately obvious how. That has advantages and disadvantages but more than anything else, its just different than Homesite. Judah

> If it costs more than $0 I'll carry on using cfeclipse, as will most people I suspect. First, most people don't use CFEclipse. Second, is your time really that worthless to you, assuming this has compelling features? The MAX general session demo looked pretty interesting to me. Third, Adobe hasn't released any pricing info for this yet, and I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't even figured that out for themselves yet. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

Dave... Calm down.. He's just expressing his opinion. :) Dave Watts wrote: > First, most people don't use CFEclipse. I think he meant changing from something that costs nothing to something that costs money. > Second, is your time really > that worthless to you, assuming this has compelling features? The MAX > general session demo looked pretty interesting to me. Not willing to put down extra money for features that may not matter to him doesn't decrease his worth. I mean, someone could say that your worth is overinflated, but thankfully, no one is that rude. > Third, Adobe > hasn't released any pricing info for this yet, and I wouldn't be > surprised if they haven't even figured that out for themselves yet. Fair enough. It's ok to start thinking about it once they announced it. I use CFEclipse as well and the feature list shown (I didn't see any kind of demonstration as I didn't sign up for the beta) doesn't impress me at all. I'm with Matt on this. If it isn't free, then I probably won't be using it unless it has some better features added in .

> Dave... Calm down.. He's just expressing his opinion. :) As am I. Until the features and pricing are known, that's all we can do. > Not willing to put down extra money for features that may > not matter to him doesn't decrease his worth. Then, those features wouldn't be compelling, would they? That's specifically why I wrote "compelling features". My point was simply that, without knowing more, it strikes me as premature to dismiss it. > I mean, someone could say that your worth is > overinflated, but thankfully, no one is that rude. Since I'm not sending anyone here an invoice for services rendered, my worth or lack thereof is irrelevant. But, as a developer, the functionality of my development environment can definitely affect my productivity, and if I'm significantly more productive with a $400 IDE, or a $2,000 IDE, that fixed cost will be quickly outweighed by the extra work I can do. Again, my point was simply that it's a bit shortsighted to dismiss this without additional investigation. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

Hmm... When you swap out *Development Platform* for *IDE*  it sounds a lot like the argument for using CF itself. EX: "But, as a developer, the functionality of my *Development Platform* can definitely affect my productivity, and if I'm significantly more productive with a $400 *Development Platform*, or a $2,000 *Development Platform*, that fixed cost will be quickly outweighed by the extra work I can do." >>Since I'm not sending anyone here an invoice for services rendered, my worth or lack thereof is irrelevant. Not so. Your contribution to the community is immeasurable. G! ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Strangely your the second person who's misinterpreted what I said. I didn't actually say most people use CFEclipse at all. I merely intimated that anyone already using CFEclipse, would probably carry on if Bolt costs any money, they are both based on Eclipse after all so will quite likely have many similarities. As for the new features, none of them jumped out as being that time saving for me, I'll keep an open mind as ever but at present I'm not excited. > If it costs more than $0 I'll carry on using cfeclipse, as will most people I suspect. First, most people don't use CFEclipse. Second, is your time really that worthless to you, assuming this has compelling features? The MAX general session demo looked pretty interesting to me. Third, Adobe hasn't released any pricing info for this yet, and I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't even figured that out for themselves yet. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

> Ben just announced it. Sign up for access to the beta (or whatever) at Oh my. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to preemptively seize convergence **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

oh yeah. espacially since the beta is not even available yet - they are just accepting sign-up for it... Azadi Saryev Sabai-dee.com http://www.sabai-dee.com/ Tom Chiverton wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> oh yeah. espacially since the beta is not even available yet - they are > just accepting sign-up for it... Plus the whole* world is going to press that sign up button. I know Adobe said they were going to be more open over CF... -- Tom Chiverton Helping to continually restore sexy strategic 24/7 environments **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

>Ben just announced it. Sign up for access to the beta (or whatever) at >http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Bolt I think it's a shame that the makers of ColdFusion make use of php as their Wiki.

Why does this matter honestly? Groovy/Grail's entire website ran off something(s) other than Groovy for well over 2 years before they finally broke down and wrote something in Grails. If there is a good solution out there what's the point in creating something new? Are was all that obsessed with beating our chest saying "Look what I can do with ColdFusion" that we require everything from adobe to be either Flex or ColdFusion? Reality check ColdFusion is not the only technology out there for the web, sometimes there are other solutions. While we're at it though one has to ask one's self why doesn't adobe just write Bolt entirely in Flash/Flex and use Air...I mean come on they can create a word processor with it why not my CF IDE? Sound a bit rediculous? Yeah I figured so... Adam On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Rand Thacker <rand.thacker@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I think it's a shame that the makers of ColdFusion make use of php as their Wiki. I suspect Adobe created this well before they even acquired Macromedia. But even if they didn't, Adobe is a big company. Most truly big enterprises don't use a single product, they have departments using all sorts of things. There's a whole field devoted to trying to minimize that within enterprises: enterprise architecture. So I wouldn't read too much into that. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

True.. But if I was a customer and I didn't see the technology being sold to me as being used, I'd suspect it wasn't that good to begin with. While I agree that using whatever works is the best way to go, appearances are everything. Dave Watts wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Well this WIKI site isn't selling anything.  It's just a WIki on a labs site for beta testing.  The Adobe.com site with all their released products for sale runs on Coldfusion and a whole lot more. So I think you can see they are using their products.  Someone is just being a PITA because Adobe opted to use a free off the shelf Wiki to post some documentation at their LABS site.  The labs being a place where one experiments with all sorts of technology. Wil Genovese On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Phillip M. Vector < Vector@mostdeadlygame.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I don't think it's about "whatever works" as much as it is about "whatever is available". There was obviously a wiki already built with PHP that addressed the immediate business needs.  What would the ROI be on delaying the launch of the labs site so that a wiki application with the exact same functionality could be built in CF? The labs site is aimed at developers.  As developers, we're always fighting the battle of deadlines (among others).  As developers, we should realize in seeing the .php extension that it was simply a matter of utilizing resources efficiently and not reinventing the wheel unnecessarily. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Phillip M. Vector < Vector@mostdeadlygame.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Why not use one of the many CF Wiki apps that are out there? It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'm just saying that if you go to a site that is promoting a product using another product.. It just looks bad IMHO. Charlie Griefer wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Labs was launched several years ago. What CF Wiki apps existed back then?  Labs is not run by web developers. It's run by product managers who only want to get their data on to pages. Not build an app that already exists. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Phillip M. Vector < Vector@mostdeadlygame.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

From raiforge searching under "wiki" Canvas ColdFusion Wiki A ColdFusion wiki.   ColdFusion   Raymond Camden   4/25/08 5:37 PM CodexWiki An Enterprise ColdFusion Wiki Engine   ColdFusion   Luis Majano   6/5/08 12:52 AM Skweegee Project Management / Issue Management System, Wiki, SVN Browser ColdFusion   Russ Johnson   10/11/08 12:37 AM Trac_Fu ColdFusion based Trac replacement with SVN Browser and Wiki. ColdFusion   Russ Johnson   8/28/07 12:50 AM Weeki A Flex-powered Wiki System   Flex   Sebastian Zarzycki   6/27/07 7:26 PM WikiConverter for ColdFusion 8 Converts wiki markup (based upon Wikipedia standard) to HTML and HTML to wiki markup.   ColdFusion   Brian Rinaldi   7/2/07 8:11 PM So... 6. Tyler Fitch wrote: > Labs was launched several years ago. > > What CF Wiki apps existed back then?  Labs is not run by web developers. > It's run by product managers who only want to get their data on to pages. > Not build an app that already exists.

So which of those existed in 2006 when Labs was created? You only proved my point here. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Phillip M. Vector < Vector@mostdeadlygame.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

So they couldn't update? :) Tyler Fitch wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Update an application that works perfectly? In an ideal world, maybe.  In the real world, very little in the way of justification.  I go to the labs site for information.  Currently, I get the information I need.  If it ain't broke... On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Phillip M. Vector < Vector@mostdeadlygame.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I think they're a little busy, what with writing new IDEs and Centaur and AIR 1.5 and the like. Momma had a sayin', "If it aint broke, don't fix it." Steve "Cutter" Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _____________________________ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Phillip M. Vector wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Of course the site is promoting many different products from Adobe.  So if it were in CF then someone might complain about it not being in Flex and so on and so on. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Phillip M. Vector < Vector@mostdeadlygame.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Are there many?  AFAIK there is Canvas... and CodexWiki (the latter being very new)... so the options at the time were likely fairly limited.  If the php wiki did what they needed it to do out of the box, I don't think it was a bad decision to go that route. I've seen CF sites that use php forums because there are just more/fuller-featured forums available in PHP.  Clients want results.  They don't generally care if the file extension is .cfm or .php, as long as it works :) On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Phillip M. Vector < Vector@mostdeadlygame.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Ok... Let me put it this way.. Let's say I sell a forum. It costs $500, but contains all the bells and whistles you could ever want. I tell you how great it is and so on. Then you click on the forums section of my site that sells said forum and find phpbb running there. Still interested in buying my forum software? :) Charlie Griefer wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>sigh< But Adobe isn't selling a Wiki product on the labs site. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Phillip M. Vector < Vector@mostdeadlygame.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

So.... I hear that Adobe has a new IDE for CF. Just sayin' G -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com "Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them. My mother cleans them." -- Rita Rudner

Yes, they've announced a new IDE. I've applied to be pat of the beta   test program.  Eagerly awaiting. Wil Genovese One man with courage makes a majority. -Andrew Jackson A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well. On Nov 19, 2008, at 1:26 PM, Gerald Guido wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Unless they find Kabunto http://www.kabunto.org that is :-) On Nov 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Charlie Griefer wrote: > 've seen CF sites that use php forums because there are just > more/fuller-featured forums available in PHP. --   Razuna On-Demand - Hosted Digital Asset Management Solution Razuna - Open Source Digital Asset Management with Web Content   Management http://www.razuna.vom/ Razuna - Open Source Forum Solution http://www.kabunto.org/ Roozani - memorize everywhere http://www.roozani.com/ SixSigns - Enrich people?s lives and web experience http://www.sixsigns.com http://blog.sixsigns.com Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/sixsigns

> Why not use one of the many CF Wiki apps that are out there? > > It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'm just saying that if > you go to a site that is promoting a product using another product.. > It just looks bad IMHO. Actually there can be some sticky issues with using code that's been provided by someone else in the community. A while back when I was in the Adobe Community Experts program, we had a conference call in which we talked with the CF engineering team about the next release (which ultimately became CF8/Scorpio), although this was before the beta. Anyway there were some other things discussed on the call, one of which being a community portal for ACE and UG Managers (which they didn't have yet although they do now). At the time I think Mike Dinowitz had offered to contribute some time coding for the portal and there was a kind of hesitated demuring from the Adobe side of the conversation. I don't think they ever actually said yes or no, but one other thing that had been mentioned was that they had to be careful about how they marketed the ACE program even, that they couldn't particularly agressively pursue people to become members because they had to be careful about the laws regarding their relationship to the team members... they were concerned about there being an appearance of either preferential treatment or possibly abusing the community for their contributions since the ACE members are non-paid and Adobe is a for-profit company. My recollection of the specifics is a little fuzzy, so I apologize if I'm a little off in my description. But the basics were legal issues surrounding the contribution of work done "for hire" for a commercial entity (Adobe) by another commercial entity (ACE member) but done for free. And I imagine that may potentially extend toward the use of other even open-source CF applications. I'm not saying it does -- just that it may -- I don't know the specific laws in question. In retrospect actually I don't think it was Adobe yet, I think that was still the Team Macromedia program. But anyway, my fuzzy recollection aside, there are sometimes other issues in question. :) -- s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch isn't it time for a change?      ph: 781.769.0723 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog

The Adobe Web Team uses Mach-II, Transfer and ColdSpring among other things.  But they're not something being bundled with a product for sale like CF, they're just part of the website. t ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>>Ben just announced it. Sign up for access to the beta (or whatever) at >>http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Bolt > > I think it's a shame that the makers of ColdFusion make use of php as their Wiki. I think it is a shame that the ColdFusion Community can't write a Wiki that runs on ColdFusion that can even hope to approach the features that some of the Wiki's created by the PHP Comunity offer. (I have high hopes for CodexWiki, but t isn't out yet.) Jochem

I realize that this has been flogged into oblivion, but here goes. I think Adobe should develop and distribute this editor for free. Why?  Simple.  It will introduce more people to ColdFusion as a development platform, thus making them more revenue.  Or, at the very least, offer a stripped down version with just language support but without the other buzzers, lights, and bells.  If it works as nicely as Aptana, that would be a plus, since I use Aptana for teaching my Web Design classes. Pete

A free scaled down version exists, its called cfEclipse... Offering an IDE for free will not get people interested in a Language. IDEs are a means to an end not a beiginning (you may consider Visual Studio a slight departure from that statement). I don't think people typically sit around on a Saturday afternoon and think "Humm I want to learn a new programming language, let's see what IDE is out there for free." If anything they should charge $500 for an IDE and give away ColdFusion for free (standard at least maybe not enterprise). As servers become more and more powerful the need for multiple license decreases (the only thing that keeps the need high is increased bloat of product and Adobe has commited to not releasing slower version of CF in the future). As the demand for more web based aps increases the # of developers increases as well, the IDE is directly tied to the # of developers and is steady, or grows as your server technology adoption increases. The only problem with this is folks that make a free IDE, Adobe will always have to add additional value to the IDE. Adam On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 2:12 PM, Pete Ruckelshaus <pruckelshaus@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

@Adam, Thinking back on the evolution of Flex from 1.0 to 2.0, that seems to have worked quite well.  Originally pricing the server at $15k - $20k and having a decent IDE left it a very flat technology with extremely low adoption.  When they moved to giving the compiler and server away for free and charging $500 for the full IDE, Flex took off like wildfire.  Heck, they even threw in the free scaled down SDK for hacking Flex directly without the full feature. Jason ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Thinking back on the evolution of Flex from 1.0 to 2.0, that seems to have I'd love Adobe-CF to be free, but realisticly the 'free CF' space already has established players, so why enter it ? I wouldn't be surprised if Bolt was free. Adobe-CF is free in some situations, so for instance schools and universitys could easily use the two together. Sort of like the opposite way around to Flex, where the IDE costs but the language is free, Adobe-CF could cost but the IDE is 'given away' (or bundle X licenses with Y edition of the server). > even threw in the free scaled down SDK for hacking Flex directly without > the full feature. The Flex SDK isn't 'scaled down' at all. Anything Builder can do you can do with the SDK, including line debugging. The only thing missing is Charting aka Data Visulisation, but you can copy them from a (demo) Builder install and use them without issue. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to globally establish cutting-edge partnerships **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

>>."Humm I want to learn a new programming language, let's see what IDE is out there for free." I do. But then again I am dyslexic and started out as a designer. Those squiggly lines are a God Send. I also know a lot of design (IU) oriented ppl dependent heavily on their tools. A lot of design people really struggle with code. That is largely why Thermo even exists and why DW is so popular. I imagine that a large portion of the CF user base fall in that camp. G ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Not necessarily true - Most of the CF programmers I know are real   programmers classically trained in Computer Science programs and   schools.  For myself I've learned and programmed in Assembler,   FORTRAN, C/C++, PERL and even lowly BASIC along with a variety of   other languages outside of the languages I use for building web   applications.  I've been programming for 20 plus years.  The   programmers where I work with are programmers and can do some design   elements.  So while Coldfusion does attract many designers that can do   some code (poorly in my opinion) I also see lots of programmers   writing Coldfusion that can do some design (ever more poorly - just   look at my design work). I can also tell you that from my discussions with certain people 'in   the know' Coldfusion sales are not hurting.  It does amazes me that   when there is a really cool product that the masses want how many   people can claim tons of reasons why they think the company would do   much better if they just gave it away for free.  Face it, you just   want something for free.  No matter what the product, you can "prove"   why you think you should have it for free. Well the world does not work that way.  That's why you have a job (if   you have one) someone wants the product/service you can create.  Even   though you or your employer charges for that product.  I'm sure your   clients can come up with many reasons as to why you should code and   design a web site for free. ;-) And Gerald, I know all about being a Dyslexic programmer and sometimes   those squiggly little lines LIE!  ;-)  You know what I mean. Wil Genovese One man with courage makes a majority. -Andrew Jackson A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well. On Nov 19, 2008, at 2:51 PM, Gerald Guido wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>> I know all about being a Dyslexic programmer and sometimes those squiggly little lines LIE!  ;-)  You know what I mean. Yep.... all too well. ;-)  Even worse is how spell check has *NO idea*, what I am trying to spell some times. I mean none. Thank God for Google's "Did you mean?". So Wil, Did you get your invite yet? Why must Adobe taunt us so? I am *really* looking forward to CF9. Especially the ORM/Hibernate stuff and the CF Script/CFC enhancements. I really hope that the code generation feature in Bolt is something more than the current CFC wizard in Eclipse. I am hoping for something that can be templated and/or generates forms. G! -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com "Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them. My mother cleans them." -- Rita Rudner

The same place everyone else did, from the link in the first post of   this thread.  I'm still waiting to get my hands on the stuff also.   However, last year Jason Delmore and Adam Lehman came to our company   to interview us about what we thought the next version of Coldfusion   should have and they talked about the possible IDE and we talked about   possible features in the IDE.  If the features that were mentioned are   in Bolt then CFEclipse will look like Notepad in comparison.  The   issue of pricing came up and we made our opinions heard. We suggested a fair price for stand alone IDE purchases (I was   insistent on no more than $99) and we suggested that there be a   certain number of free IDE licenses with the purchase of Coldfusion   Enterprise.  Now we only made suggestions.  I have no clue if they are   considering our pricing suggestions. BTW: This was part of Jason's mission last year to meet many companies   that use Coldfusion and to get one on one feedback about the current   product and going forward.  Ours was one of six companies that I know   of in the Twin Cities that they met with. And even though we did not sign a NDA for that meeting they did ask   that we keep details confidential.  That I've done. Wil Genovese One man with courage makes a majority. -Andrew Jackson A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well. On Nov 19, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Gerald Guido wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> However, last year Jason Delmore and Adam Lehman came to our company > to interview us about what we thought the next version of Coldfusion Something similar happened at Scotch on the Rocks. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to challengingly reintermediate error-free e-business **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Lets be blunt - Bolt is a commercial product and it will have a price tag. If it has features you want and you think its worth it then you'll buy it. If not, then not. No need to debate, no need to argue. Bottom line.

Has anyone who signed up for the beta online actually gotten a copy of the beta, yet? Rick Michael Dinowitz wrote: > Lets be blunt - Bolt is a commercial product and it will have a price tag. If it has features you want and you think its worth it then you'll buy it. If not, then not. No need to debate, no need to argue. Bottom line.

>> Has anyone who signed up for the beta online actually gotten a copy of the beta, yet? Nope. -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com "Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them. My mother cleans them." -- Rita Rudner

Gerald Guido wrote: >>> Has anyone who signed up for the beta online actually gotten a copy of > the beta, yet? We wouldn't be allowed to say because of the NDA, now would we?

If anyone did make the beta, they are probably bound by an NDA to not answer this question. Mike   _____ Sent: Tue 11/18/2008 7:36 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Official ColdFusion IDE announced Has anyone who signed up for the beta online actually gotten a copy of the beta, yet? Rick

Anyone know if that's so?  If you have the beta, you can't even tell anyone you have it? (You could tell me, I guess, but then you'd have to kill me... :oP ) Rick Dawson, Michael wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

They probably can't tell you about the NDA, because seeing the NDA probably means they're in a beta, about which they can't tell you... mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Rick Faircloth <Rick@whitestonemedia.com>wrote: > Anyone know if that's so?  If you have the beta, you can't even tell > anyone you have it? > (You could tell me, I guess, but then you'd have to kill me... :oP ) > As far as I know, that is so. Legend tells of one particular curmudgeonly user group manager (who shall remain nameless) who wanted to know which attendees were in one of the CF betas.  so he said, "If you're *not* in the CF beta... raise your hand." -- I have failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my life. I love my wife. And I wish you my kind of success.

haha!;-) Yves Arsenault "Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend". --Martin Luther King, Jr. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:26 PM, Charlie Griefer <charlie.griefer@gmail.com > wrote: > > > Legend tells of one particular curmudgeonly user group manager (who shall > remain nameless) who wanted to know which attendees were in one of the CF > betas.  so he said, "If you're *not* in the CF beta... raise your hand."

I once heard the cf reporter tool was going to cost money until the community got all up in arms about it, no idea if that is true since would have had to happen in some sort of beta because pretty sure it was always free.  So if any truth is behind that then never do know, maybe if enough people "cry for something for nothing" then it would be free.  I honestly do not see why it would be free and could easily see it costing a couple hundred dollars at the minimum.  I am just wondering how many features this is going to have that can be taken advantage of by prior versions(within the MX series) of CF. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Michael Dinowitz < mdinowit@houseoffusion.com> wrote: > Lets be blunt - Bolt is a commercial product and it will have a price tag. > If it has features you want and you think its worth it then you'll buy it. > If not, then not. No need to debate, no need to argue. Bottom line.

> Lets be blunt - Bolt is a commercial product and it will have a price tag. It doesn't have to have one. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to collaboratively visualize end-to-end plug-and-play systems **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

I don't think anyone's in the beta yet.  Ben said that it wasn't ready yet, but if you signed up on labs you would be notified when it went to beta.  They wouldn't have said that if they were ready to release it today.  From the way they made it sound-- anyone could sign up for the beta who wanted to.  In fact, here's Ben's blog entry on it complete with links... http://www.forta.com/blog/index.cfm/2008/11/18/ColdFusion-Announcements-At-MAX-Keynote Now, I don't know if they plan on _accepting_ everyone who signs up... ~Brad

If you think about it.  If we are now signing up for the Beta, that means there is an Alpha. Some of the people who walk among us may be using the Alpha but are bound not to talk about it. Kinda sounds kinky, doesn't it? Mike