Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs

I know that's a 'Chicken Little" kind of subject line.  I hope my impressions are wrong.   Might be - i have been wrong before.  I remember i was wrong once when i thought i was incorrect, but i wasnt. Anyway,  these are the reasons i think the trends tell me ColdFusion is either a dead duck of soon to be a dead duck at least in Sydney anyway.  I dont know about other places.  ... [A] there is almost no new development going on in ColdFusion    In the last 12 months there has been just a handful of coldfusion jobs advertised.   And most of those have been advertised by time-wasters who didnt end up appointing anyone. "I'm sorry Mike, they've put that project on hold for now ... yada yada yada "  (or so they said  maybe they were just too gutless to tell me i didnt get the assignment)   In the last 12 months i have had NOT ONE assignment as a result of any advertisements for CF developers.   If I hadnt dug up business on my own I'd have starved.   Contrast this with a few years ago when freelancers like me had jobs lined up one behind the other.   Maybe its just me,   maybe everyone else has lots of jobs lined up.  But somehow i doubt it. [B] There is next-to no apparent activity in the Usergroups on coldfusion, at least as far as I've seen.  Everyone's fussing about Flex and Flash and Railo and Ruby on Rails and no one's talking about ColdFusion.    I'd have made the 4 hour trek into the user group meeting if there'd been anything to do with coldfusion on.  Apparently developers think there is nothing to talk about with ColdFusion.   How newer developers are getting on learning the product I have no idea. [C]  Adobe dont seem to be doing anything to promote ColdFusion here. I might be wrong on that,  and its just that they dont tell us what they're doing,  but I havent seen any evidence that they're putting much effort into marketing ColdFusion.     I dont consider sending speakers to a COLDFUSION conference like WebDU or CfObjective to be promoting new ColdFusion installations because they're preaching to the choir there.   Those folks are already sold on CF.  Yes it's important to keep those lines open with the developer community but I dont see much use for gaining new users that way.   ( I said something similar a few years ago, and Mark Blair got highly indignant about it - called me and told me all the things he was doing to promote ColdFusion.   But after that, nothing)   I would like to know that Adobe care enough about their server product to put some money behind it and promote it a bit here.    It would make me feel more comfortable about building my business around it. So if IT departments arent looking for CF Developers,   Usergroups arent interested any more,  Adobe isnt bothered with it any more, what long term future does it have? Boy i hope I'm wrong! -- Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month

Three's not much hiring going on period.  Just in  case you have been living in a cave, we do have a crappy economy with buttloads of unemployment.  I was getting several calls a week up until about June...then it died.  It has nothing to do with CF, it has to do with lack of funds to do projects.  I have a couple of projects waiting in the wings that are just sitting there because the company that needs to get them done can't get the loans to pay for it.  Has CF ever been properly marketed?  Seems to have been doing fine for the past what 13 years with little to no marketing.  I think the only thing you got right here was the Chicken little part ;-) I know that's a 'Chicken Little" kind of subject line.  I hope my impressions are wrong.   Might be - i have been wrong before.  I remember i was wrong once when i thought i was incorrect, but i wasnt. Anyway,  these are the reasons i think the trends tell me ColdFusion is either a dead duck of soon to be a dead duck at least in Sydney anyway.  I dont know about other places.  ... [A] there is almost no new development going on in ColdFusion    In the last 12 months there has been just a handful of coldfusion jobs advertised.   And most of those have been advertised by time-wasters who didnt end up appointing anyone. "I'm sorry Mike, they've put that project on hold for now ... yada yada yada "  (or so they said  maybe they were just too gutless to tell me i didnt get the assignment)   In the last 12 months i have had NOT ONE assignment as a result of any advertisements for CF developers.   If I hadnt dug up business on my own I'd have starved.   Contrast this with a few years ago when freelancers like me had jobs lined up one behind the other.   Maybe its just me,   maybe everyone else has lots of jobs lined up.  But somehow i doubt it. [B] There is next-to no apparent activity in the Usergroups on coldfusion, at least as far as I've seen.  Everyone's fussing about Flex and Flash and Railo and Ruby on Rails and no one's talking about ColdFusion.    I'd have made the 4 hour trek into the user group meeting if there'd been anything to do with coldfusion on.  Apparently developers think there is nothing to talk about with ColdFusion.   How newer developers are getting on learning the product I have no idea. [C]  Adobe dont seem to be doing anything to promote ColdFusion here. I might be wrong on that,  and its just that they dont tell us what they're doing,  but I havent seen any evidence that they're putting much effort into marketing ColdFusion.     I dont consider sending speakers to a COLDFUSION conference like WebDU or CfObjective to be promoting new ColdFusion installations because they're preaching to the choir there.   Those folks are already sold on CF.  Yes it's important to keep those lines open with the developer community but I dont see much use for gaining new users that way.   ( I said something similar a few years ago, and Mark Blair got highly indignant about it - called me and told me all the things he was doing to promote ColdFusion.   But after that, nothing)   I would like to know that Adobe care enough about their server product to put some money behind it and promote it a bit here.    It would make me feel more comfortable about building my business around it. So if IT departments arent looking for CF Developers,   Usergroups arent interested any more,  Adobe isnt bothered with it any more, what long term future does it have? Boy i hope I'm wrong! -- Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month

Eric, I hope you're right and i'm just panicking unnecessarily. But when i see little or no promotion,  very little discussion about CF,   bugger all interest from the user groups,  and no jobs that adds up to a pretty serious malaise i fear. Every night i have some of my favourite job boards send me an email with IT jobs that meet my search criteria.   Every night all 2009, I got at least 150 jobs on the email.    There are plenty of web dev jobs.   but the ones containing the word "ColdFusion"  have dropped from 4-5 every day about 18 months ago, to less than 5 in the last 6 months.    Based on this information (which i admit might be giving me a misleading impression) its hard not to conclude that the other technologies are chugging along ok, but CF isnt. I am eager to be proved wrong in this.    I dearly hope i am. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Eric Roberts <owner@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I know that's a 'Chicken Little" kind of subject line.  I hope my > impressions are wrong.   Might be - i have been wrong before.  I > remember i was wrong once when i thought i was incorrect, but i wasnt. Ah, Mike, how long's it been since your last "ColdFusion is dead" post? > Contrast this with a few years ago when > freelancers like me had jobs lined up one behind the other. Contrast this with a few years ago when we weren't in the biggest recession since... when? WWII? The Great Depression? > [B] There is next-to no apparent activity in the Usergroups on > coldfusion, at least as far as I've seen.  Everyone's fussing about > Flex and Flash and Railo and Ruby on Rails and no one's talking about > ColdFusion. OK, now you're the *fourth* person to say the same thing to me today... What is up with user groups that I'm hearing this so much lately? I don't actually see it locally - there are three CFUGs within easy driving distance for me and they're all active and have lots of interesting (and CF-focused) talks. But I am hearing it from various parts of the world. Is it a UG manager problem perhaps? i.e., nothing to do with CF or Adobe specifically. FWIW, I started looking for active PHP and Java groups (to do some CFML marketing to) and had a hard time finding those. There's one local PHP group but it doesn't seem very active and the only Java group I could find in the area hasn't updated its website for ages and hardly ever seems to meet. UGs for Scala, Clojure and other "new" and/or "hot" languages do seem to be more active - but that's because they're new tech for a lot of people. CFML, PHP and Java have been around forever, they do their jobs well and they're just... well, less interesting perhaps? > [C]  Adobe dont seem to be doing anything to promote ColdFusion here. That's been a long-standing complaint since the Macromedia days "{insert country here} gets no love". Adobe added a European specialist (Claude Englebert) and were looking at how best to support the APAC market - but these are not simple problems to solve and there is no unlimited marketing budget. > Boy i hope I'm wrong! You are :) The pool of CFers is constantly growing. Rates are still higher for CFers than most other web technologies. There are more CFML conferences and events than ever. But there is a recession going on - and that hurts everyone. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret A

2010/1/21 Sean Corfield <seancorfield@gmail.com> <snip> > > I don't actually see it locally - there are three CFUGs within easy > driving distance for me and they're all active and have lots of > interesting (and CF-focused) talks. But I am hearing it from various > parts of the world. Is it a UG manager problem perhaps? i.e., nothing > to do with CF or Adobe specifically. > I better give the Perth CFML tree a shake my UG has gone quite again. <slash> ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

There was a lot of activity in Europe in 2009: * ColdFusion Insider Workshop Tour, which visited a good dozen European countries if not more * Ben Forta UG Tour, probably visiting half a dozen countries, if not more * Scotch on the Road UK and Scotch on the Road Europe, which visited Scotland, England, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Netherlands and Belgium For 2010 I know Ben Forta is coming back, because the Netherland CFUG has announced a date in March, and Scotch on the Rocks is back to running in a single location on May 24/25 in London. Andy ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- -- andy.allan@gmail.com www.fuzzyorange.co.uk www.andyallan.com www.scotch-on-the-rocks.co.u

Anecdotal but still interesting(?): I'm not actively job-searching but I do receive email-notifications re: new CF opportunities from: - GetColdFusionJobs.com - LinkedIn - CFManiacs:ColdFusion Developers Group - LinkedIn - ColdFusion - 3000+ Members! - LinkedIn - ColdFusion - cf-jobs@houseoffusion.com - Indeed.com - Monster.com - etc Many messages contain more than one opportunity.  Some messages contain duplicate opportunities.  Here're the message counts: Jun - 95 Jul - 98 Aug - 101 Sep - 103 Oct - 134 Nov - 144 Dec - 146 Jan - 56 so far On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Andy Allan <andy.allan@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Not in Australia, and Mike is right the jobs are not there for ColdFusion developers in Australia. Australia is not in a recession, America might be. But we refuse to acknowledge this, and our economy here is actually very strong in a lot of areas. The job market here has continued to reflect that Companies are moving to other technologies because it is getting harder and harder to get good ColdFusion developers. This has not changed in the last 10 years. If anyone wishes to reflect that we are in a recession then please Explain how the jobs for ColdFusion began declining in 1999, and have continued to drop for ColdFusion? Again let me say this, the Australian IT industry is thriving, just not the ColdFusion side of it. If there are no developers to replace, then the companies have no choice but to look at moving to another technology where developers and resources can be replaced, this hasn't changed in the last 10 years either. It really sickens me that the excuse of a recession is used, are you saying that we have been in a recession for the last 10 years Sean? I don't thinks so. The pool of CFers is constantly growing. Rates are still higher for CFers than most other web technologies. There are more CFML conferences and events than ever. But there is a recession going on - and that hurts everyone.

Surely most of the people who read Mike's original message do not live in Australia and do not have first-hand knowledge of the state of CF there. However, Mike's subject was not "Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia" and several of his points seemed to be non-Australia-specific. http://www.indeed.com.au/jobs?q="coldfusion"+or+"cold+fusion" ...returns 32 jobs: 1 CF job for every 691,348 Australians. http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q="coldfusion"+OR+"cold+fusion" ...returns 2,644 jobs: 1 CF job for every 116,688 Americans. On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:42 AM, Andrew Scott <andrews@andyscott.id.au>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Interesting, John.   Actually of those 32 jobs om Australia,   4 are in Sydney, the biggest city in the country, One is for a .NET developer  and exposure to Coldfusion would be an advantage, Another is for a FLASH developer with some exposure to Coldfusion.  So those two arent really coldfusion jobs. So that leaves 2 jobs in a city of 4.5million people.  One of those isnt really a coldfusion job - its coldfusion related - they're looking for a front-end developer in a web agency that uses coldfusion for their dynamic pages.  let's say its half a coldfusion job.   That means there are 1.5 coldfusion jobs according to Indeed.com.au. It's a paradox, but I think Andrew's right - the ColdFusion sites are steadily changing to other technologies - .Net or php mostly or java for the larger ones.   At least that's my perception.     Last year i had my 3 biggest clients tell me they weren't doing any more development in Coldfusion  - they were switching to .NET in two cases, and Java in the other case. I'm not trying to whine and say Adobe should solve all my problems. But it is a worrying trend, and I'd like to know what (if anything) is being done to reverse it. Right now,  it seems no one really is putting too much effort into creating new ColdFusion sites, at least here in Sydney.  From what I see anyway. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 11:53 PM, John M Bliss <bliss.john@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 5:17 AM, Mike Kear <afpwebworks@gmail.com> wrote: > > Interesting, John.   Actually of those 32 jobs om Australia,   4 are > in Sydney, the biggest city in the country, So go to the 28 other jobs and explain to them why telecommuting would be good for their company and expand your pool. Either that or move if the job market is that bad out there. Sorry if I offend, but it seems that you want the perfect job in the perfect place and it isn't working out. So instead of you doing something about it, you are claiming that no one wants CF developers anymor

No, Phillip.  I have been busy all year, but i dug up projects of my own.  What i am concerned about is the apparent lack of activity on the part of anyone to get new ColdFusion sites up and going, while most of us can point to CF sites that have gone to other technologies. Go ahead.  Bash me. if it amuses you. Bash away. But it doesnt change the problem.  Its ignoring the problem I'm trying so hard to point out.   We're all so scared to say that Adobe arent doing much because we might be labelled one of the "ColdFusion is dead" crew  that it's just being neglected.  At least that's how it seems to me, and there is NO ONE who has made any effort to tell me I'm wrong about that. Look I know the signs.  I spent more than 20 years in Sales Management,  Sales to Government (state and Federal departments) and major accounts sales.  I know what major sales activity looks like. And I havent seen any.  I could easily be wrong because I dont mix in those circles any more.    I have a son in product management in the biggest IT distributor in Australia.   He also says there is no apparent activity happening in ColdFusion that they can see.   He also could easily be wrong about ColdFusion because he also might be talking to people who wouldnt know about CF. I'm not asking for anyone to reveal projects that are delicate and might fall over.  I'm not asking anyone to reveal confidential information.  But surely there is SOMETHING someone can point to that says Adobe are promoting ColdFusion in Australia.  Where is the trade show presentation?   What about a booth at a .Net conference?   Any presentations at Adobe gatherings?   What about when Adobe had the presentations to potential customers last year,    was anything said about ColdFusion then?   I didnt see anything mentioned about CF on the agenda so I didnt go.  I had a living to earn.   Any ads placed? Any mailouts done?  Any brochures printed?  Did anyone actually make a phone call to any potential new CF customer? Or have they decided to spend their efforts on development tools and IDEs and just let the server product manage itself? All I know is what I see with my own eyes.  And for daring to speak about it,  I'm getting slammed as one of the "ColdFusion is dead" people. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 5:54 AM, Mike Kear <afpwebworks@gmail.com> wrote: > > Go ahead.  Bash me. if it amuses you. Bash away. But it doesnt change > the problem.  Its ignoring the problem I'm trying so hard to point > out.   We're all so scared to say that Adobe arent doing much because > we might be labelled one of the "ColdFusion is dead" crew  that it's > just being neglected.  At least that's how it seems to me, and there > is NO ONE who has made any effort to tell me I'm wrong about that. First of all, I'm not bashing you. I am merely pointing out how it looks from my point of view. I'm sorry if you took that as bashing. No need to get defensive. :) > I'm not asking for anyone to reveal projects that are delicate and > might fall over.  I'm not asking anyone to reveal confidential > information.  But surely there is SOMETHING someone can point to that > says Adobe are promoting ColdFusion in Australia. Ah.. So you are complaining about CF in Australia. My bad. I thought you were talking about ColdFusion in general. Again I will say, if CF is that bad in Australia, telecommute or move to someplace that it IS good. I'm pretty sure CF is dying in Tuvalu as well, but if I lived there, I would look into other options. > Or have they decided to spend their efforts on development tools and > IDEs and just let the server product manage itself? Considering they are about to release CF9 (or have they already? I just use 8 currently), I doubt they are giving up on it. > All I know is what I see with my own eyes.  And for daring to speak > about it,  I'm getting slammed as one of the "ColdFusion is dead" > people. Because you are saying it. "i think the trends tell me ColdFusion is either a dead duck of soon to be a dead duck" You aren't getting slammed either. We are trying to explain how you are incorrect and you seem to not want t

THE RUMORS OF MY DEMISE ARE GREATLY EXAGERATED - Mark Twain Just a couple of comments on this issue: 1. We are deploying new CF sites every month. Many are major... banks, universities, colleges, credit unions, hospitals, etc. 2. Jack Henry is one of the major providers of on-line banking services in the US. We work with them all the time. They are pure CF, and are a major player in the US banking industry. We also have several major financial clients (securities and investments - SEC stuff) who are pure CF. 3.  We have no problems selling CF driven sites. The core issue is the power of the applications, good design and solid architecture... rarely does it come to language. 4. I've been doing CF for way more than I decade. I hear this doom saying rant every couple of years. If I'd have listened to it the first time I heard it I'd have abandoned CF when it was still owned by Allaire, instead I've enjoyed a great career developing CF and I am not highly concerned for at least the next several years. If anyone ever does kill CF it will probably be the self-fulfilling prophecy created by chatter like this :-) Robert B. Harrison Director of Interactive Services Austin & Williams 125 Kennedy Drive, Suite 100 Hauppauge NY 11788 P : 631.231.6600 Ext. 119 F : 631.434.7022 http://www.austin-williams.com Great advertising can't be either/or.  It must be &. Plug in to our blog: A&W Unplugged http://www.austin-williams.com/unplugged __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4793 (20100121) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com

> All I know is what I see with my own eyes.  And for daring to speak > about it,  I'm getting slammed as one of the "ColdFusion is dead" > people. I can't imagine why, except that your subject line is "Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs". Perhaps, since all you know is what you see with your own eyes, you'd have been better served by having a less hysterical subject. I can only hope my own "last legs" are as sturdy as CF's. CF has been on its last legs at least since ASP was released in the Windows NT 4 Option Pack. We're a CF reseller, and our sales are doing quite well. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit

You are being a jerk Phillip.  I'm talking about one of the world's largest and most sophisticated cities.   The largest city in a very advanced economy.  And in this city of nearly 5 million people there are apparently 4 jobs for people involving ColdFusion, and of those, only 2 actually want any ColdFusion programming. If I was Adobe's CEO I'd be reading the riot act about it. This is how it's been for over a year,  in a country that DID NOT go into recession. I'm not complaining because I cant have the perfect job in the perfect place and I'm not going to accept anything less.  That's insulting. I'm not sitting idly waiting for money to fall into my hands.   That's insulting too. And how dare you presume to decide for me that I should uproot my family, kids, sell my house, move my businesses,  find help for my disabled wife,  when you havent got a clue about my personal situation.  Life's all very easy when you dont have to worry about little details like that - when it's not YOUR family you are tipping upside down. Dont be a jerk.  Actually READ what i'm saying or shut the hell up. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 6:06 AM, Mike Kear <afpwebworks@gmail.com> wrote: > > You are being a jerk Phillip. Sorry I come across that way. It isn't my intent. If you wish to consider me a jerk and that makes you feel better, then feel free. >  I'm talking about one of the world's > largest and most sophisticated cities.   The largest city in a very > advanced economy.  And in this city of nearly 5 million people there > are apparently 4 jobs for people involving ColdFusion, and of those, > only 2 actually want any ColdFusion programming. Actually, according to the world atlas.. (http://www.worldatlas.com/citypops.htm) 73. Sydney, Australia - 3,665,000 As for the 2 jobs, are you really locked into only working in Sydney? Is telecommuting a difficult thing for you to do? > This is how it's been for over a year,  in a country that DID NOT go > into recession. Actually, it did. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/australia-in-recession-imf/story-e6frg6n6-1111118720026 True, it didn't hit you guys as hard as the rest of the world.. Australia's forecast -0.2pc growth this year is not as dire as the US (-1.6pc), Europe (-2pc), the UK (-2.8 pc) and Japan (-2.6pc). But it still had one and that is probably a factor (note that I didn't say cause, but a factor) in the less then stellar job market. > I'm not complaining because I cant have the perfect job in the perfect > place and I'm not going to accept anything less.  That's insulting. Well, that is how it appears to me. My mistake. > I'm not sitting idly waiting for money to fall into my hands.   That's > insulting too. Never said you were. Please do not mis-state what I am saying. > And how dare you presume to decide for me that I should uproot my > family, kids, sell my house, move my businesses,  find help for my > disabled wife,  when you havent got a clue about my personal > situation.  Life's all very easy when you dont have to worry about > little details like that - when it's not YOUR family you are tipping > upside down. If I didn't have a job, I would move me and my family to get one. But you seem to be forgetting about the telecommuting option I mentioned. Do you usually focus on the worst solution only? > Dont be a jerk.  Actually READ what i'm saying or shut the hell up. I read it. I'm giving my opinion on what I read. I'm done. > Cheers

Could it be perhaps that you're not looking in the right locations for these jobs? I'd guess that a portion of it is that CF developers aren't moving positions, which means that the positions that ARE out there are currently filled. While that could also mean that there's no growth in CF, it most likely means that the economy is bad and no one is hiring period. On the other hand my company in Nashville TN has hired 2 CF developers in the last 3 months and is looking to hire 2 more. Take from that what you will. Andy Matthews Dealerskins Interesting, John.   Actually of those 32 jobs om Australia,   4 are in Sydney, the biggest city in the country, One is for a .NET developer  and exposure to Coldfusion would be an advantage, Another is for a FLASH developer with some exposure to Coldfusion.  So those two arent really coldfusion jobs. So that leaves 2 jobs in a city of 4.5million people.  One of those isnt really a coldfusion job - its coldfusion related - they're looking for a front-end developer in a web agency that uses coldfusion for their dynamic pages.  let's say its half a coldfusion job.   That means there are 1.5 coldfusion jobs according to Indeed.com.au. It's a paradox, but I think Andrew's right - the ColdFusion sites are steadily changing to other technologies - .Net or php mostly or java for the larger ones.   At least that's my perception.     Last year i had my 3 biggest clients tell me they weren't doing any more development in Coldfusion  - they were switching to .NET in two cases, and Java in the other case. I'm not trying to whine and say Adobe should solve all my problems. But it is a worrying trend, and I'd like to know what (if anything) is being done to reverse it. Right now,  it seems no one really is putting too much effort into creating new ColdFusion sites, at least here in Sydney.  From what I see anyway. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 11:53 PM, John M Bliss <bliss.john@gmail.com> wrote: > > Surely most of the people who read Mike's original message do not live > in Australia and do not have first-hand knowledge of the state of CF there. > However, Mike's subject was not "Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last > legs in Australia" and several of his points seemed to be non-Australia-specific. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

You guys looking for any remote developers Andy?  I am in Chicago... Eric Could it be perhaps that you're not looking in the right locations for these jobs? I'd guess that a portion of it is that CF developers aren't moving positions, which means that the positions that ARE out there are currently filled. While that could also mean that there's no growth in CF, it most likely means that the economy is bad and no one is hiring period. On the other hand my company in Nashville TN has hired 2 CF developers in the last 3 months and is looking to hire 2 more. Take from that what you will. Andy Matthews Dealerskins Interesting, John.   Actually of those 32 jobs om Australia,   4 are in Sydney, the biggest city in the country, One is for a .NET developer  and exposure to Coldfusion would be an advantage, Another is for a FLASH developer with some exposure to Coldfusion.  So those two arent really coldfusion jobs. So that leaves 2 jobs in a city of 4.5million people.  One of those isnt really a coldfusion job - its coldfusion related - they're looking for a front-end developer in a web agency that uses coldfusion for their dynamic pages.  let's say its half a coldfusion job.   That means there are 1.5 coldfusion jobs according to Indeed.com.au. It's a paradox, but I think Andrew's right - the ColdFusion sites are steadily changing to other technologies - .Net or php mostly or java for the larger ones.   At least that's my perception.     Last year i had my 3 biggest clients tell me they weren't doing any more development in Coldfusion  - they were switching to .NET in two cases, and Java in the other case. I'm not trying to whine and say Adobe should solve all my problems. But it is a worrying trend, and I'd like to know what (if anything) is being done to reverse it. Right now,  it seems no one really is putting too much effort into creating new ColdFusion sites, at least here in Sydney.  From what I see anyway. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 11:53 PM, John M Bliss <bliss.john@gmail.com> wrote: > > Surely most of the people who read Mike's original message do not live > in Australia and do not have first-hand knowledge of the state of CF there. > However, Mike's subject was not "Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last > legs in Australia" and several of his points seemed to be non-Australia-specific. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

We have hired one remote developer, Russ johnson. We'd prefer to have in house guys as it makes collab so much easier, but it never hurts to put in your resume. devjob@dealerskins.com or you can send it to me and I'll forward it on. andy You guys looking for any remote developers Andy?  I am in Chicago... Eric Could it be perhaps that you're not looking in the right locations for these jobs? I'd guess that a portion of it is that CF developers aren't moving positions, which means that the positions that ARE out there are currently filled. While that could also mean that there's no growth in CF, it most likely means that the economy is bad and no one is hiring period. On the other hand my company in Nashville TN has hired 2 CF developers in the last 3 months and is looking to hire 2 more. Take from that what you will. Andy Matthews Dealerskins Interesting, John.   Actually of those 32 jobs om Australia,   4 are in Sydney, the biggest city in the country, One is for a .NET developer  and exposure to Coldfusion would be an advantage, Another is for a FLASH developer with some exposure to Coldfusion.  So those two arent really coldfusion jobs. So that leaves 2 jobs in a city of 4.5million people.  One of those isnt really a coldfusion job - its coldfusion related - they're looking for a front-end developer in a web agency that uses coldfusion for their dynamic pages.  let's say its half a coldfusion job.   That means there are 1.5 coldfusion jobs according to Indeed.com.au. It's a paradox, but I think Andrew's right - the ColdFusion sites are steadily changing to other technologies - .Net or php mostly or java for the larger ones.   At least that's my perception.     Last year i had my 3 biggest clients tell me they weren't doing any more development in Coldfusion  - they were switching to .NET in two cases, and Java in the other case. I'm not trying to whine and say Adobe should solve all my problems. But it is a worrying trend, and I'd like to know what (if anything) is being done to reverse it. Right now,  it seems no one really is putting too much effort into creating new ColdFusion sites, at least here in Sydney.  From what I see anyway. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 11:53 PM, John M Bliss <bliss.john@gmail.com> wrote: > > Surely most of the people who read Mike's original message do not live > in Australia and do not have first-hand knowledge of the state of CF there. > However, Mike's subject was not "Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last > legs in Australia" and several of his points seemed to be non-Australia-specific. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Why is it that everyone is afraid to speak the truth?  No worries, I'll do the dirty work. Adobe, watching helplessly (so some thought) as Australia scoffs at the world as it suffers through a major recession, are hell bent upon bringing full-on recession to Australia.  Their strategy appears to be working, one CF developer at a time.

ColdFusion as a platform is most certainly not on its last legs. As always, this statement comes with a big "it depends". It's a matter of fact that the attention ColdFusion gets in the Pacific market (that also includes New Zealand) from the local Adobe office equals to nil. Adobe Australia is a pure LC ES, Flex and CS 4/5-driven sales organisation. I'm not saying this is right or wrong either way, it's just as it is. What that leads to though is ColdFusion not getting any marketing recognition and exposure - not even during Adobe's own "Refresh" events in AU and NZ supposed to cover some of the MAX news locally - just have a glance at the agenda and try to spot ColdFusion: http://events.adobe.co.uk/cgi-bin/event.cgi?country=pa&eventid=9155 I guess what people are saying is that the market for ColdFusion developers in Pacific is hard and Adobe is not helping at all. Here in NZ I'm seeing large government departments moving away from CF because CIOs got with the flow and jump on .NET, Rails and others. Sure they would - getting bombarded by buzzwords I can see why they go with mainstream products and technologies, if they fail they can at least say: "I did what everyone else did". I've heard and seen similar things happening in Australia and yes - the observation of fewer people starting any major new developments on the basis of CF is something I can certainly agree with. Some of that would be driven by a weaker economy - as some people have said: Australia and New Zealand have been in a downturn, but to compare that to the economical slaughterhouse in Europe/US would be really misleading. The economies down here are more or less in an ok state. Someone is this thread said this was again the "my country doesn't get any love from Adobe" situation (I think it was Sean). It might be, yes. Unfortunately for Pacific that is the case since a particular and the only CF-minded person in the local Adobe offices have left the country to work for Adobe US. There are however a bunch of clients around that heavily rely on CF and appreciate the value it can offer if applied properly. It's just a bit more of a challenge to find those, but they certainly do exist. Flexibility is the key though - one of my main clients is not even in the same country as I am and it still works perfectly fine to support them in their CF undertakings. If one can't find work/clients in Sydney (or any other city) look for Brisbane, Melbourne etc. At the end of the day, discussing all this is riding a dead horse, it's not changing anything. If people feel they can't make any more money with coding in CF or providing consultancy services around the platform it might be a good idea to step aside and learn a second/third/.../nth technology. Actually that's a good idea for anyone imho - look around, there's tons of cool stuff to play with - don't focus on one particular product/language. That is all :) Kai ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

I live in Surrey and work in London, I have seen a decline on the job boards for Coldfusion - Some of that most certainly due to the recession :( but alot due to CIO's following the trends. I currently work for a company that has ditched CF and moved to C#.net all because the new CIO came from taht background. A number of other big players in London are also ditching CF and moving to .net which I find really frustrating, I guarantee this is all decisions made at the top - The upper management in organisations dont understand the value of CF and I blame alot of that on the bad press coverage that Adobe provides. I am a die hard CF fan but I am finding myself having to go down a C#.net route to retain the daily rates I am getting. If I look on jobserve.co.ukand search for CF roles there are like 3 pages covering the whole of the UK, if I do the same search for C#.net there are about 20+ pages of roles. This frustrates hell out of me. CF is AWESOME and i want to continue using it!!! Jose On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Andrew Scott <andrews@andyscott.id.au>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Well then maybe the Australian market in completely unique in the entire world and has different problems that the rest of the world does not? On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 1:42 AM, Andrew Scott <andrews@andyscott.id.au> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Well then maybe the Australian market in completely unique in the > entire world and has different problems that the rest of the world > does not? Is that so strange?    India has different problems that the rest of the world does not.  Canada  has different problems that the rest of the world does not.   England  has different problems that the rest of the world does not.  France  has different problems that the rest of the world does not.  China  has different problems that the rest of the world does not.  Indonesia  has different problems that the rest of the world does not.  Hell, even the USA  has different problems that the rest of the world does not. Why wouldnt Australia? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month --

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Why would you then generalize your specific problems to the world? Look, if your problem is with the Australian sales team at Adobe, what is the point of posting "CF is dying" to a worldwide programmers' list? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, onli

Now, here's the ultimate test: let's post a "ASP.NET is dying" thread to their mailing list and see if the response is as strong.  [?] On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Dave Watts <dwatts@figleaf.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Well - just because my inbox needs another 50 messages... I'm interested in the opinion that has been offered a few times in a few iterations: Developers make Coldfusion (Successful) This intrigues me - because it seems to be of the logic: If you build it, they will come. I mean - I see where you are going. The Developers are really the Customer... And it's the strength of their community that propels the product - blah blah... Maybe it's my marketing background, but that story just doesn't hold up. The success rate of anything based on that sort of fairytale/whimsical/lucky business plan is extremely low. I am sure you can all point to one or two that break through that boundary - but not thousands. Additionally: I am not saying that "Adobe" doesn't consider the Developers as part of their Marketing and sales strategy - I am sure they do - I'm just not sure we're all that self important. And to that: I do think that part of Adobe's marketing is elitism. (Same as Apple for that matter.) It's been true of their graphics suite forever. They place a premium (price) on their software as a way of indicating how important it is. If you need a metaphor/example, I would use Debeers and Diamonds. There are more than enough diamonds to go around - and in the end they are just rocks - but Debeers have been able to make you think they are extremely rare and more precious than love - or a Detective Comics #27.  !! And that my friends - was due to some GREAT marketing. Not because the rocks are really that sparkly and marvelous. Still not clear?  How about Tom Sawyer and the Fence? "Sure is fun painting the fence... You should try it." Adobe could stand to show more people enjoying the fence painting... And - in regards to price - I will say - that for "small shops" like mine - in very small markets - Adobe's price point does/can make it difficult to compete. From software on to hosting - the prices start higher, because there is more cost built in. It's a strange conversation to have with a client who knows and cares zero about it all - but when they ask: Why does it cost $30 to host your site and only $5 to host his? I have to have a better answer than "Because CF is made for Big Companies" -  The customer doesn't know or care about Coldfusion or PHP... He cares that my bill is 6 times more. Anywho  - - - So - the argument would be - I should really push Coldfusion!  AS a CF believer I should get more involved! Spreading the word spreads the product! I should start a group and get all my friends to start programming in CF!!! - I'm not buying that. That's Adobe's job. It's THEIR product. I have my own job to do. As a company owner - I need to push MY company. I need to push My services. And I need to stay ahead of the next guy. Adobe doesn't always help with that. I'm not saying Adobe's responsible for whether my company makes or breaks it any more than me to them - heck no - I'm also not saying I don't use CF as a way to differentiate myself from the next guy - I do - But I will offer: making a $300 vs a $1300 server license would be a hell of an olive branch to the community at large. Could be great marketing. Could help CF spread like wildfire. "IF" done correctly. So - there's my log on the fire for this discussion. Carry on. Complain away and point out the dozen reasons I am wrong. Just go easy on the name calling. - Nick "ColdFusion's not dead - It's Frozen! We're gonna break out the anti-virus and thaw this mutha out!" - Drunk IT Executive making no sense at all at quarterly board meeting.

I tend to agree with you Eric.  My feeling is that ColdFusion has been profitable with little or no marketing, so what is Adobe's incentive to actively market it?  They can plug along with a few developers working on it, cranking out new versions every so often, and as long as it's not losing money that's ok with Adobe. -- Josh So - the argument would be - I should really push Coldfusion!  AS a CF believer I should get more involved! Spreading the word spreads the product! I should start a group and get all my friends to start programming in CF!!! - I'm not buying that. That's Adobe's job. It's THEIR product. I have my own job to do. As a company owner - I need to push MY company. I need to push My services. And I need to stay ahead of the next guy. Adobe doesn't always help with that. I'm not saying Adobe's responsible for whether my company makes or breaks it any more than me to them - heck no - I'm also not saying I don't use CF as a way to differentiate myself from the next guy - I do - But I will offer: making a $300 vs a $1300 server license would be a hell of an olive branch to the community at large. Could be great marketing. Could help CF spread like wildfire. "IF" done correctly. So - there's my log on the fire for this discussion. Carry on. Complain away and point out the dozen reasons I am wrong. Just go easy on the name calling. - Nick "ColdFusion's not dead - It's Frozen! We're gonna break out the anti-virus and thaw this mutha out!" - Drunk IT Executive making no sense at all at quarterly board meeting.

* Sigh * You know what.  This kind of stuff really upsets me. If you want change - then its time to step up and do something about it. Get involved in your local UGM, start presenting to people, go to local techups, or non-CF conventions or twitter meets.  There are SO many avenues out there for intigating change its ridiculous. Being more proactive also allows you to find work through multiple avenues as well as you build relationships with people.  I would say almost the majority of contract jobs out there are fulfilled by word of mouth, that I think that Seek is almost a waste of time. The only thing you can control the change of is yourself. You can't control the change in other people. Mark -- E: mark.mandel@gmail.com T: http://www.twitter.com/neurotic W: www.compoundtheory.com Hands-on ColdFusion ORM Training @ cf.Objective() 2010 www.ColdFusionOrmTraining.com/

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Eric Nicholas Sweeney <nick@bigfatdesigns.com> wrote: > Maybe it's my marketing background, but that story just doesn't hold up. The > success rate of anything based on that sort of fairytale/whimsical/lucky > business plan is extremely low. I am sure you can all point to one or two > that break through that boundary - but not thousands. Well, we're talking about programming languages and most of them succeed because of community momentum, not because of "ACME Inc." marketing them... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood

Marketing key to success for everything? Well, I agree marketing helps   in most situations and for most products--but it doesn't always have   to be the case. Take a look at Wikipedia's success; there were no big bucks spent on   advertising it. Take a look at that United Breaks Guitars song on YouTube, and then   take a look at the one United made as a response. The second one was   not free and had a well known artist. On Jan 22, 2010, at 2:39, Sean Corfield <seancorfield@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

As I said Xia - Everyone can point to one or two... Can you point to thousands? I am not dismissing the viral phenomena - I am just saying it's the exception. And as I ALSO said - in not so many words - Who is to say that "community momentum" wasn't/isn't part of the marketing? The smaller your product/service - the more you rely on "free" marketing techniques. Marketing - IS the key to success. Yes. (If by success you mean - getting people to buy, use, or believe what you do/say.) You may be thinking of "traditional" marketing delivery methods (TV, Radio, print) - But now with the internets - we have all this new stuff like blogs, user groups, forums, emails, etc. (Please Note: Anyone with a signature here is marketing... Sean, Dave, Mark, etc. They have links so people will go to their sites... That's Marketing. They are generating awareness of their "products/services" through a medium. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I am just pointing it out.) The first person/group/company that made (insert something here) - Told someone about it. Usually - aggressively telling people about it. They told others - hey look at this. As simple as that is - it's marketing by the "inventor" of the "product".   Word-of-mouth marketing. "Generally" slower than other forms - but better because it has built in trust... So yes - Sean - I agree - that Developers have a strong community and it helps propel our products and tools. It's "marketing" done by us. For Free. But the developers of our products had to first Market them to "us" - or we wouldn't know about them - and certainly wouldn't have tried them. So if you think Marketing by "Acme Inc." has nothing to do with it - that's crazy talk. (I know you were just generalizing) But since we're really talking about Adobe - that's super crazy talk. It's not like they released CF9 and waited for the community to respond to an updated version on the website. They held Q&A, had press releases, Got Ben Forta excited ;), blogged about it, held conferences, pounded tradeshows, evaluated market shares, wrote books, made videos... Had people read all these inane posts... :)   So what I was originally getting at - was that while Adobe has a huge marketing plan in place - it certainly doesn't have the full weight of the company behind it - and it probably isn't being as aggressive as some of us would like to see it. I believe they have the power to own the market. To make CF "the hot language". They certainly were able to put the smack down on the graphics industry. So, I would like them to add a little more attention here. (Not that that would make them lower prices, but I digress) Perfect example:  Purchase the Adobe Master Collection. $2500. Comes with everything they make - well.... except ColdFusion and Flex. But Everything else you need to make "rich websites". Come on guys... You couldn't bundle the developer edition? (FREE) You couldn't include the $250 Flex Builder? Really? Not even a lite version? (Hell, the "WEB" Suite Premium doesn't include Flex either.) And what is with charging the same price for CF8 AND CF9?  WTF? Missed opportunities gentlemen... That is all I am saying. I mean - if we - the developers - are really the driving force behind promoting their products - shouldn't they spend a little more time giving "me" warm fuzzies? Why is it your job to make me feel better about what they are doing? In short: It's not. And you won't. Unless of course - they've convinced you to try the product and you really liked it -and then feel "the need" to share that info... But it all starts with them convincing you it's worth your time to "try it out." Sneaky little Acme... Not that I am telling you something you didn't already know - I just felt like typing a bunch of words. (I was really hoping to use the word 'hypothetically' in that rambling but I guess it wasn't needed.  Oh wait - there it is.) - Nick

> So if you think Marketing by "Acme Inc." has nothing to do with it - that's > crazy talk. (I know you were just generalizing) But since we're really > talking about Adobe - that's super crazy talk. It's not like they released > CF9 and waited for the community to respond to an updated version on the > website. Right, and I think Adobe did a huge amount of marketing on CF9. It's why I get frustrated when folks complain "Adobe aren't doing enough". Adobe do a *huge* amount of marketing. A lot of it, people in this community don't even see because it's aimed at other levels of the food chain and/or other communities. > And what is with charging the same price for CF8 AND CF9?  WTF? They changed the license to allow free use on development and testing servers when you buy a production license. They added support for cloud usage so you can run ColdFusion on Amazon EC2 - even Standard Edition. They allow deployment on a standby server for free so you have a production-ready failover server (that came with CF8 or 8.0.1 I think). They've added a huge amount of value with the licensing changes in CF9. They're betting on those changes helping them sell more licenses than they would without those changes. When I was at Broadchoice, the whole pay-for-dev/test-licenses thing was a serious bone of contention and the board were challenging my use of ColdFusion 8 because of the cost. In the end, we consolidated onto a large, heavily-virtualized server and used a single CF8 Enterprise license. CF9 would have allowed us to develop/test the way we wanted and would have eased my discussions with the board over license costs. As it was, we bought four Enterprise licenses for production but when we deployed a new project to Amazon, we went with Railo Community Edition (back in the 3.0, pre-open source days) because of the CF8 EULA. Adobe worked with us - thank you Adam and Kristen! - and provided a way for us to use CF8 legally on Amazon and we migrated our CF8 applications to Amazon as well. Cost is still an issue and I don't see Broadchoice rushing to upgrade to CF9 but the CF9 EULA would have caused us far fewer headaches than the CF8 EULA did! Does anyone actually think those are *bad* changes? Really? -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwoo

> And as I ALSO said - in not so many words - Who is to say that "community > momentum" wasn't/isn't part of the marketing? The smaller your > product/service - the more you rely on "free" marketing techniques. Adobe does a pretty good job with supporting community-driven marketing. I don't know how many people here run into this, but Adobe sponsors conferences, user groups, and all kinds of learning events. > Marketing - IS the key to success. Yes. (If by success you mean - getting > people to buy, use, or believe what you do/say.) You may be thinking of > "traditional" marketing delivery methods (TV, Radio, print) - But now with > the internets - we have all this new stuff like blogs, user groups, forums, > emails, etc. Again, though, marketing by Adobe alone is not sufficient for success. Adobe sponsors conferences and user groups organized by others because they drive attendance and mindshare. Lots of Adobe people are on blogs, Facebook, etc. I think they're as accessible, or more accessible, than their counterparts in many other products. > (Please Note: Anyone with a signature here is marketing... > Sean, Dave, Mark, etc. They have links so people will go to their sites... > That's Marketing. They are generating awareness of their "products/services" > through a medium. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I am just > pointing it out.) Yeah, that's kind of the point. I don't post on cf-talk because I'm altruistic, I do it because it helps sell me within the CF world, and helps me sell CF within the larger world. > So what I was originally getting at - was that while Adobe has a huge > marketing plan in place - it certainly doesn't have the full weight of the > company behind it - and it probably isn't being as aggressive as some of us > would like to see it. Well, that's the whole problem. No matter how much they do, it won't be enough for some people. > I believe they have the power to own the market. To make CF "the hot > language". They certainly were able to put the smack down on the graphics > industry. So, I would like them to add a little more attention here. (Not > that that would make them lower prices, but I digress) The problem with that theory is that CF isn't like other products they sell. There really aren't many compelling alternatives to Photoshop and Dreamweaver. There are lots of alternatives to CF, and they're not all owned by companies that Adobe can buy up - remember, Adobe's dominance in the graphics industry is largely due to them buying the right companies. Are they going to buy MS to own .NET? Who can they buy to own PHP? CF may be good, great, "first among equals", but Adobe simply doesn't have the position to change these things. > Perfect example:  Purchase the Adobe Master Collection. $2500. Comes with > everything they make - well.... except ColdFusion and Flex. ... and LiveCycle, and Flash Media Server, and Connect, and Captivate, and RoboHelp, and ... I can see the argument that Flex should be included in their GUI tools packages, but CF just doesn't fit. Many people buying Master Collection, etc, aren't interested in running servers, and wouldn't care for the significant price increase that would surely result. But presumably, you're not advocating a price increase for Master Collection, you just want free stuff, right? > And what is with charging the same price for CF8 AND CF9?  WTF? I'm not sure what you want here. Should they increase the price for CF 9, since it has shiny new features? > Missed opportunities gentlemen... That is all I am saying. Adobe would presumably like to make a profit on CF. Adobe has a limited advertising budget to spend on CF. Given those two facts, what you consider a "missed opportunity" may well be just a way for Adobe to make less money from CF. And, if Adobe does start making less money (or losing money) on CF, things are going to be a lot worse for you than they are now. > I mean - if we - the developers - are really the driving force behind > promoting their products - shouldn't they spend a little more time giving > "me" warm fuzzies? Why is it your job to make me feel better about what they > are doing? In short: It's not. And you won't. Unless of course - they've > convinced you to try the product and you really liked it -and then feel "the > need" to share that info... But it all starts with them convincing you it's > worth your time to "try it out." Sneaky little Acme... I tell people how great CF is because, as a CF developer, it serves my best interests - as a CF developer, I can do things faster and arguably better than .NET, clients get results faster, and everyone's happy. Again, I think your expectations from Adobe are somewhat unreasonable, and apparently so does Adobe. Adobe provides lots of resources for developers, they sponsor conferences, attend trade shows, etc, etc. But they get to figure out how to price their products, and if you're not happy with that, there just isn't a whole lot you can do about that. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit

>> And as I ALSO said - in not so many words - Who is to say that "community ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Well, yes and no. Adobe did have a decent user group system but then they consolidated them and it all changed. We had a Portland CF Usergroup but then it got changed by Adobe to a PDX RIA group and most all of the content and discussion is around Flash and Flex. Having a Flash and Flex group is fine but CF has really been pushed to the background. I'm sure that if I made a hard push, I could get more CF stuff in the meetings, present myself, etc. But for a random CF developer, there isn't nearly as much user group support as there once was. Not a good change. Judah

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Adobe doesn't really manage the user groups directly. That is, they don't tell a specific user group to cover this or that specific topic. So, presumably, the user group managers did that on their own. So, you can either (a) get into your user group management yourself, and bring them around, or (b) just start your own user group. It doesn't really take much other than lots of free time. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

I used to be a CFUG manager, so I understand. But it was my impression that all of the CFUGs were getting converted to RIA groups. Perhaps I misunderstood and I just need to get off my lazy ass and make a group again :) Cheers, Judah ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> I used to be a CFUG manager, so I understand. But it was my impression > that all of the CFUGs were getting converted to RIA groups. Perhaps I > misunderstood and I just need to get off my lazy ass and make a group > again :) A lot of them have switched to RIA topics, or just become more general than CF. But I think that's more a matter of how they're being run, and who's willing to do presentations. It's hard to run a CF user group if no one else is willing to do CF topics each month. We did that, by ourselves, for nearly ten years, and it's a LOT of work. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

Judah: It's likely that you misunderstood.  I started a CFUG in the East Bay, California area less than a year ago.  I've not had Adobe attempt to influence any sort of influence over the topics we cover, nor did they attempt to mandate that the group be referred to as anything other than a CFUG. All they've done is send schwag :) On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Judah McAuley <judah@wiredotter.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>Well, we're talking about programming languages and most of them >succeed because of community momentum, not because of "ACME Inc." >marketing them... >-- >Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN A point we agree upon.  And the reason why I think postings like (Mike Kears) are dangerous because they are just more nails in the coffin of CF developer morale. Sure, demand for CF work in Sydney has declined in the last year or so, but then demand has picked up in Brisbane, Melbourne, and Auckland. Does Sydney really need someone to get up and say the obvious ? Result of original post: CF developers up and leave town looking for work in greener fields - or change to .Net or PHP or Flash if they can ... Follow on result: Clients look for CF developers and discover there is a shortage - can't get anyone to do the work... Next: Employer takes the decision to move onto a technology for which they can more easily get competent developer resources. <pick one> Cheers

That's because Adobe are not here, actively doing what their predecessors used to do and promote their product. The job market for ColdFusion in Australia has been drying up for 10 years, you Americans don't get to see that. But that doesn;t mean we are saying that ColdFusion is dying, far from it. We now for a fact that overseas markets are thriving, but they are only thriving in Adobes own backyard. This discussion comes up every now and then, and every time it does there is no recession when it was brought up in the past. The recession is a scapegoat to the real problem. We don't have the luxury of the conferences like you guys over their, although one individual has taken it upon himself to try to change this. But it will be hard for even that conference to keep its head above water, when it is only marketed at existing or should I say extinct ColdFusion developers here in Australia. It is a catch 22, the product is not promoted here. It's harder to stay in a development role with ColdFusion, as there are no jobs. Companies are moving away because Microsoft are coming in and offering more than what Adobe is doing. If Adobe was being proactive in Australia, then maybe there would be more companies here in Australia starting to use ColdFusion more, or even staying with it. But realistically, I had this conversation when I was in my last position. They were a 100% ColdFusion house, we began moving direction and the number one thing that the company looked at was what resources where at our disposal in the future. And it boiled down to developers, there were next to no jobs available. Which means that developers are off learning other technologies, so if our company was to continue down the ColdFusion path we would be spending more money in training than was worth it. This is an all too common scenario here in Australia, it might not be the case in America. But it is here. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Sean Corfield <seancorfield@gmail.com>wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Just so we have this straight, not enough CF jobs were available elsewhere, so the company assumed there must be no developer interest in CF, so they changed directions?  That seems entirely self-defeatist to me.  Instead of contributing to the solution (create more CF jobs) the company did the opposite and started moving away from CF, which just contributes to the problem you're complaining about.  It's not like those developers who had to go learn other technology suddenly forgot how to do CF.  Some of them probably preferred CF and would love to have a CF job, but none were available.  So, instead of going forward and potentially creating some CF jobs in the future to lure those developers back, the company just gave up and changed directions.  No wonder CF isn't getting anywhere in Australia. -Justin

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Andrew Scott <andrews@andyscott.id.au> wrote: > We don't have the luxury of the conferences like you guys over their, > although one individual has taken it upon himself to try to change this. webDU? Web on the Piste? cf.Objective(ANZ)? MXDU/webDU is pretty much a fixture on the calendar and now cf.Objective(ANZ) has joined the line-up - and is even more focused on CF. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood

Sean, as much as we disagree about the unique-ness situation of Pacific, you're absolutely right that we have an awesome set of conferences covering CF (and other topics). I can't speak for the other people from the region on this mailing list, but all the ones below you've mentioned are on my "absolutely-have-to-be-there" list. Kai ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 6:02 PM, Sean Corfield <seancorfield@gmail.com> wrote: > Ah, Mike, how long's it been since your last "ColdFusion is dead" post? > A very long time.   In the past i have joined discussions on this topic, saying something along the lines that 'even if Adobe announced the cancellation of the product, there would still be jobs around'. I have never felt pessimistic about this line of work until now. >> Contrast this with a few years ago when >> freelancers like me had jobs lined up one behind the other. > > Contrast this with a few years ago when we weren't in the biggest > recession since... when? WWII? The Great Depression? The US and Europe might be, but Australia isnt.   We havent been hit to anywhere near the extent that other countries have.   Yes we have a down-turn, but not like elsewhere. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- My point about the UGs is that my feeling (which i keep saying i hope is wrong) is that CF is cold now and even developers arent talking much about it.  Instead talking about Flex, Ajax, Flash,  other stuff.    I get the impression you dont talk about CF any where near as much as you used to, Sean. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Never said there was.   But as things get harder for me,  I look for signs that might tell me what I ought to do about it.   Should I hang in with CF or maybe do something else?     And one of the worries i have that I hope someone will prove is foundless, is that the impression I get is that Adobe arent promoting ColdFusion much in Australia.    I had an Adobe guy tell me a while back "we're in the IDE and Development Tool business  not the server business.  I dont know why we have ColdFusion at all."    That was a bit disquieting at the time, and I wonder . what if that feeling was widespread in Adobe?    What if they start seeing CF as an orphan? >> Boy i hope I'm wrong! > > You are :) > Good then! > The pool of CFers is constantly growing. Rates are still higher for > CFers than most other web technologies. There are more CFML > conferences and events than ever. > There is an extra CF conference here in 2009, but i dont see evidence of the rest.   Rate pressure down more,   fewer jobs than ever before. - Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/mon

> I had an Adobe guy tell me a while back "we're in the IDE and Development > Tool business not the server business. I don't know why we have ColdFusion at all." > That was a bit disquieting at the time, and I wonder . what if that feeling was > widespread in Adobe? What if they start seeing CF as an orphan? I think this would come as a great surprise to the LiveCycle team, which is a pretty big deal in their overall corporate product strategy. And to the Connect and FMS teams as well. Adobe is a big company. It sells lots of products. Hundreds of products. Whatever one "Adobe guy" tells you, unless that guy is a CxO, does not reflect any sort of corporate product strategy. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Dave, I have spent enough time in the sales operations of corporations to know that it doesn't matter a damn what the board of directors says - if the general sales team in a company has a widespread view that the product sucks, it doesn't sell.   Or if they dont get the right support, or if they dont know how to sell it,   it doesnt sell. This is especially true if the sales people have a whole raft of products they can sell to make quota.  The CEO can jump up and down and wave his/her arms all he/she likes and it ain't gonna move. So thats why i started asking myself "what if this person's attitude was representative of  the general attitude of the Adobe staff?" And dont start talking about bloody LiveCycle.  It was the Adobe LiveCycle guy at WebDU who told me that he would never allow my company to have anything to do with selling LiveCycle.  I guess he took a look at me and decided I wasnt 'the right kind of person' or something. Perhaps he didnt like the colour of my shirt.   Even after i had told him that I had known the product for at least 15 years and had built my career on printed and electronic forms and work flow since the 1980s.   And i had known this product well since before it was bought by Moore and then Adobe.  (A substantial part of the product that eventually became LiveCycle was developed by Hugh Millikin's company in Sydney)   Even after he knew I had extensive experience with this kind of market, he still slammed the door in my face (very rudely too i might add )  so i walked away from the whole LiveCycle thing.  I'm not going to plead and beg to be 'permitted' to be a customer. > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software > http://www.figleaf.com/ > http://training.figleaf.com/ > -- Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Mike Kear <afpwebworks@gmail.com> wrote: > And dont start talking about bloody LiveCycle.  It was the Adobe > LiveCycle guy at WebDU who told me that he would never allow my > company to have anything to do with selling LiveCycle. Perhaps it was your attitude? :) (sorry, Mike, I couldn't resist that one personal pot shot given how much you're ranting on this thread because people don't agree with you!) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwoo

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Adobe doesn't have a "general sales team". Again, it's a very, very large company. Sales people tend to be fairly parochial, as their primary concern is meeting their quotas selling the products they're in charge of selling. And different products (and regions, and vertical markets) have different sales teams. So, again, picking out one guy from Adobe and asking yourself whether his attitude is representative of anything larger than, well, his own attitude, is a pointless exercise. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- How many LiveCycle-certified developers do you have on staff? Have you deployed any LC servers? Have you developed any LC applications? Because you have to do ALL OF THAT before actually reselling the product. You are simply not going to be considered as a reseller for LiveCycle unless you've demonstrated a strong familiarity with the product line, and the ability to handle large customer deployments. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Mike Kear <afpwebworks@gmail.com> wrote: > I had an Adobe guy tell me a while back "we're in the > IDE and Development Tool business  not the server business.  I dont > know why we have ColdFusion at all."    That was a bit disquieting at > the time, and I wonder . what if that feeling was widespread in Adobe? Adobe has had a ton of server side technology for years before it acquired Macromedia so I'd say the guy was just not well-informed about his own company and their products. Several of its desktop products rely on server components. ColdFusion joined a number of existing - and often much more expensive - server technologies at Adobe. If anyone wants to point at a company in ColdFusion's history that didn't understand server side stuff, that would be Macromedia who tried and failed with several server products. Luckily ColdFusion survived and has been doing much better since Adobe took over. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret At

I can't speak to your experience with [A] or [C], but I will try to do a parallel to [B]. In Los Angeles, we have had what amounts to a 'dead' CF user group.  I think 2 meetings in the last year since it was resurrected, after being shelved for many many years. However, the job market for CF developers in the Los Angeles area has never been better. We do have a 'general' Adobe users group that meets, but they don't really care much for CF programmers, and focus mainly on the products you had mentioned.  If I went to one of those meetings as a litmus test for CF strength in the area, I would write LA off.  But because I work in the market, I know better. If you are having issues finding projects that are starting to use CF, keep in mind that most new companies trend toward the free server-side programming languages simply because.... it's free. In contract work, I have taken a few of the contracts and changed their minds about CF by citing and proving some of the basic tenets of CF development.  Fast to market, advanced developers tend to be actually advanced (not 'I worked with PHP for a year, I must be a 'senior'), etc. If I were you, instead of looking for 'jobs' that are using CF, try looking for 'startups' that are looking for a solution, and then sell them on you and CF. Just my 2 deenah, William I know that's a 'Chicken Little" kind of subject line.  I hope my impressions are wrong.   Might be - i have been wrong before.  I remember i was wrong once when i thought i was incorrect, but i wasnt. Anyway,  these are the reasons i think the trends tell me ColdFusion is either a dead duck of soon to be a dead duck at least in Sydney anyway.  I dont know about other places.  ... [A] there is almost no new development going on in ColdFusion    In the last 12 months there has been just a handful of coldfusion jobs advertised.   And most of those have been advertised by time-wasters who didnt end up appointing anyone. "I'm sorry Mike, they've put that project on hold for now ... yada yada yada "  (or so they said  maybe they were just too gutless to tell me i didnt get the assignment)   In the last 12 months i have had NOT ONE assignment as a result of any advertisements for CF developers.   If I hadnt dug up business on my own I'd have starved.   Contrast this with a few years ago when freelancers like me had jobs lined up one behind the other.   Maybe its just me,   maybe everyone else has lots of jobs lined up.  But somehow i doubt it. [B] There is next-to no apparent activity in the Usergroups on coldfusion, at least as far as I've seen.  Everyone's fussing about Flex and Flash and Railo and Ruby on Rails and no one's talking about ColdFusion.    I'd have made the 4 hour trek into the user group meeting if there'd been anything to do with coldfusion on.  Apparently developers think there is nothing to talk about with ColdFusion.   How newer developers are getting on learning the product I have no idea. [C]  Adobe dont seem to be doing anything to promote ColdFusion here. I might be wrong on that,  and its just that they dont tell us what they're doing,  but I havent seen any evidence that they're putting much effort into marketing ColdFusion.     I dont consider sending speakers to a COLDFUSION conference like WebDU or CfObjective to be promoting new ColdFusion installations because they're preaching to the choir there.   Those folks are already sold on CF.  Yes it's important to keep those lines open with the developer community but I dont see much use for gaining new users that way.   ( I said something similar a few years ago, and Mark Blair got highly indignant about it - called me and told me all the things he was doing to promote ColdFusion.   But after that, nothing)   I would like to know that Adobe care enough about their server product to put some money behind it and promote it a bit here.    It would make me feel more comfortable about building my business around it. -- Cheers Mike Kear

Mike: > >[A] there is almost no new development going on in ColdFusion   An exaggeration I think.  Yes, there are less jobs, but mostly this comes down to the effects of the recession. In times of uncertainty, companies invest less where there is perceived risk. Web Application development is perceived as high risk.  I've noticed that the number of jobs advertised lately seems to have picked up. But we still have the same old trick by recruiters that tend to turn one job into what looks like 8, due to multi-agency sourcing by employers. You have to ask youself why they do that, and I suggest that its because employers are finding it hard to get the right sort of candidates for the few jobs they are offering. > >[B] There is next-to no apparent activity in the Usergroups on >coldfusion, at least as far as I've seen. I've observed the same thing over a period of 10 years or so.  The Cold Fusion market is mature, there are fewer newbies out there asking dumb questions. Cold Fusion is no longer seen as the new fashioned thing, rather the opposite, even by its proponents. > >[C]  Adobe dont seem to be doing anything to promote ColdFusion here. Thats always been true (but substitute Macromedia as well) except for the time it was owned by J Allaire.  Cold Fusion has always been driven by enthusiasm among its development fraternity. It would help if Adobe were to make an investment in Cold Fusion, it would be along the lines of making it more robust and less risky for companies wanting to invest. Some attention to incomplete product features (stuff that looks good but does not work or is hard to use) and less attention to new features unless they are essential to making it compete. Cold Fusion certainly has its threats, with .Net, PHP, Python & etc alternatives out there.  Originally CF had the game to itself and it was an original concept that helped ignite enthusiasm and help to turn the web into what it is today.   Now the market is bigger and there is more competition when it comes to deciding what technology for a new project to get built in. The new-fashioned technologies get picked because they are shinier and well, not so old-fashioned.  Not because they are any better.  But building something in CF will generally get done faster [ If they can hire enough programmers ] But the opposition too are affected by the same industry wide problems seen by CF, that is the recession & declining investment in web applications. Really though, given that CF is driven by enthusiasm, it does not help morale to have these all too frequent widely broadcast 'Chicken Little' type message events. If you feel that way, put together the message and then do a global search on your message and replace on it (replacing CF with C-Sharp) and send it into the message boards for one of our competitors. (and then duck for cover).  In other words, go off quietly and don't bother the CF community about your doubts.  We all know about the problem.    If on the other hand you come up with a positive contribution that helps to lift morale, then tell the world about it. When you are discussing these matters with your friends, remind them and yourself of why CF always was and still remains a great concept with great productivity that to this day does things no other web development platform does.  It is a proprietary platform but which is flexible enough to permit a wide variety of programming techniques. >Boy i hope I'm wrong! Yep, well IMO you are. Cheers, Bryn Parrott Perth, Australia

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 12:52 AM, Bryn Parrott <bryn_parrott@internode.on.net> wrote: > I've observed the same thing over a period of 10 years or so.  The Cold Fusion market is mature, there are fewer newbies out there asking dumb questions. That would seem to mesh with the results for CFUnited "State of the CF Union" survey: 80% of respondents have 6+ years of CFML experience (half of those claim 10+ years). > It would help if Adobe were to make an investment in Cold Fusion I'd say with the push into education (free licenses, free public curriculum) and the huge advances in CF9, Adobe is making a pretty big investment in ColdFusion. They sponsor CF-focused conferences all over the place and they're very aggressively marketing to draw in new-to-CF developers. They might not be investing every penny where you want, but it's a little unfair to imply they aren't investing... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwoo

Mike: > >[A] there is almost no new development going on in ColdFusion   An exaggeration I think.  Yes, there are less jobs, but mostly this comes down to the effects of the recession. In times of uncertainty, companies invest less where there is perceived risk. Web Application development is perceived as high risk.  I've noticed that the number of jobs advertised lately seems to have picked up. But we still have the same old trick by recruiters that tend to turn one job into what looks like 8, due to multi-agency sourcing by employers. You have to ask youself why they do that, and I suggest that its because employers are finding it hard to get the right sort of candidates for the few jobs they are offering. > >[B] There is next-to no apparent activity in the Usergroups on >coldfusion, at least as far as I've seen. I've observed the same thing over a period of 10 years or so.  The Cold Fusion market is mature, there are fewer newbies out there asking dumb questions. Cold Fusion is no longer seen as the new fashioned thing, rather the opposite, even by its proponents. > >[C]  Adobe dont seem to be doing anything to promote ColdFusion here. Thats always been true (but substitute Macromedia as well) except for the time it was owned by J Allaire.  Cold Fusion has always been driven by enthusiasm among its development fraternity. It would help if Adobe were to make an investment in Cold Fusion, it would be along the lines of making it more robust and less risky for companies wanting to invest. Some attention to incomplete product features (stuff that looks good but does not work or is hard to use) and less attention to new features unless they are essential to making it compete. Cold Fusion certainly has its threats, with .Net, PHP, Python & etc alternatives out there.  Originally CF had the game to itself and it was an original concept that helped ignite enthusiasm and help to turn the web into what it is today.   Now the market is bigger and there is more competition when it comes to deciding what technology for a new project to get built in. The new-fashioned technologies get picked because they are shinier and well, not so old-fashioned.  Not because they are any better.  But building something in CF will generally get done faster [ If they can hire enough programmers ] But the opposition too are affected by the same industry wide problems seen by CF, that is the recession & declining investment in web applications. Really though, given that CF is driven by enthusiasm, it does not help morale to have these all too frequent widely broadcast 'Chicken Little' type message events. If you feel that way, put together the message and then do a global search on your message and replace on it (replacing CF with C-Sharp) and send it into the message boards for one of our competitors. (and then duck for cover).  In other words, go off quietly and don't bother the CF community about your doubts.  We all know about the problem.    If on the other hand you come up with a positive contribution that helps to lift morale, then tell the world about it. When you are discussing these matters with your friends, remind them and yourself of why CF always was and still remains a great concept with great productivity that to this day does things no other web development platform does.  It is a proprietary platform but which is flexible enough to permit a wide variety of programming techniques. >Boy i hope I'm wrong! Yep, well IMO you are. Cheers, Bryn Parrott Perth, Australia

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On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 12:51 AM, Mike Kear <afpwebworks@gmail.com> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I'm not trying to knock your original post here about new ColdFusion development I believe you... Maybe I just don't understand what you are looking for. Mom and Pop shops still need websites (the language used doesn't matter), they may be smaller jobs ranging between $1,000 and $5,000 but people still need websites! The 5 to 10 page websites can still pay the bills, change your marketing strategy :-)

> Anyway, these are the reasons i think the trends tell > me ColdFusion is either a dead duck of soon to be a dead > duck at least in Sydney anyway.  I dont know about other When it comes to usergroups and conferences, and even the kinds of companies that use ColdFusion, it has a lot to do with the culture around it.  PHP, Perl, Python, Lisp, C, Ruby, ASP.Net, Groovy, and most other languages are free to use and deploy for whatever you want.  ColdFusion is not (yes, we have Railo but it hasn't gained a lot of traction yet).  This one fact alone causes a lot of new developers to choose other technology over ColdFusion. ColdFusion was originally made for Windows, a commercial product which requires licenses.  It wasn't born of the open source culture like many languages were.  Many developers see ColdFusion as a language that is used within companies who feel like they need to pay for licensing and support. Those companies aren't sexy and the more "social" developers aren't generally drawn to them.  ColdFusion is associated with a closed-source culture and set of ideas.  This is obvious when you look at any large-scale off-the-shelf CF app (shopping carts, forums, CMS systems and the like). Other languages are open and you can do whatever you want with them and there are healthy communities with lots of free and open source applications you can deploy.  With ColdFusion you have to be concerned about which license you have, how many you have, and where you deploy it.  Just yesterday Adobe had an e-seminar about using "ColdFusion in the Cloud" and they spent the first 20 minutes talking about licensing and what was and wasn't a cloud and how you should have your legal team get in touch with Adobe's legal team if you had concerns.  That's not sexy to developers.  It turns them off and they run over to Ruby where they can just do what they need to do without worrying about whether they have the right number of CPU licenses or what their costs are going to look like if they need to scale to a dozen servers. If anything is going to kill ColdFusion, THAT, in my opinion is what will do it in. I'm not saying it's evil to charge for software or that Adobe is doing something wrong, far from it, but for a new developer it's like a choice between an iPhone (and now Android) or a Blackberry.  iPhones are sexy with lots of free apps.  Blackberry is for corporate snobs who are addicted to checking their e-mail.  As a developer, you have to decide which culture do you want to be a part of.  If you want the large usergroups with new developers fawning over the technology, ColdFusion is probably not right for you.  If you want stability and a chance to work in larger companies with a corporate culture, or a government organization with lots of structure and rules then you'll have better chances.  That is primarily where ColdFusion lives. Of course anyone can pull out examples of cool companies that use ColdFusion (I'd like to think I work for one, but we could use any language and be just as successful), or of large companies that don't, but the fact remains that the culture around the ColdFusion platform is inherently different from platforms born of the open source movement. -Justin

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Justin Scott <jscott-lists@gravityfree.com> wrote: > When it comes to usergroups and conferences, and even the kinds of companies > that use ColdFusion, it has a lot to do with the culture around it.  PHP, > Perl, Python, Lisp, C, Ruby, ASP.Net, Groovy, and most other languages are > free to use and deploy for whatever you want. ASP.Net is only perceived to be free. It isn't really free - you have to pay for Windows server licenses to get it (and if you use SQL Server you're paying again there). When you talk about free in the context of those other languages, part of it is the open source culture and that means Linux instead of Windows and MySQL or PostgreSQL instead of SQL Server. Just a nit-pick. I agree with your cultural observation overall. > ColdFusion is not (yes, we > have Railo but it hasn't gained a lot of traction yet). Nearly 25% of respondents in CFUnited's survey are using Railo: http://survey.constantcontact.com/survey/a07e2olvoj6g4ek9zt3/results You can argue that survey isn't representative of the overall CFML market but I think Railo has more traction than you might think. You're absolutely spot on with your next paragraph tho': ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- For large corporate's ColdFusion is a relatively easy sell - heck, Enterprise went up $1,500 to make it easier to sell in that market (it was perceived as "too cheap" before). After I left Adobe in 2007, I co-founded a startup and we spent months doing the whole VC tour / begathon. It was pretty soul-destroying :) Several VCs questioned our use of ColdFusion because of the licensing costs and I found myself having to justify how we could scale profitably using a commercial product instead of one of the other free, open source languages. I was a bit surprised the VCs cared about the technology but there you go... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Marg

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 12:51 AM, Mike Kear <afpwebworks@gmail.com> wrote: > I know that's a 'Chicken Little" kind of subject line.  I hope my > impressions are wrong.   Might be - i have been wrong before.  I > remember i was wrong once when i thought i was incorrect, but i wasnt. Since the entire premise of this thread seems to be anecdotal and localized, I will pile on... 1) My company just started a new CF/Flex project for a large well known company.  The group we are working with had zero previous CF applications in place.  So, companies are still adopting CF for new apps. 2) I see alot of CF development gigs that are "Flex with CF".  Meaning it's a Flex job, and you should also know CF.  Maybe you will find better gigs if you look for Flex gigs too (maybe not).  But if you don't know Flex, spend some of your new-found free time learning it. -Cameron -- Cameron Childress Sumo Consulting Inc http://www.sumoc.com --- cell:  678.637.5072 aim:   cameroncf email: cameronc@gmail.

You're wrong ;-) 1) The economy tanked and ALL development work slowed. CF has always taken the harder hit as it is the less used technology 2) Adobe/Macromedia/Allaire and Marketing Yeah....they have all sucked equally at promoting CF...no news there. It's always driven me crazy, but I'm used to the lack of effort....I still love CF. 3) You had better look into CF alternatives like OpenBD and Railio....good things are happening Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: bryan@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail

I think the availability of CF jobs depends a lot on how far you are willing to move and where you live. I lost my job at the end of October last year and I have not been seeing listed CF jobs around West Palm Beach, FL. I see plenty of job openings in the Northern Virginia area and jobs scattered around the country for those willing to relocate. I'm still looking for CF employment but I've started teaching myself .NET because there are a lot of .NET jobs available around where I live. I was speaking with a recruiter and she was telling me that she found it interesting how the job opportunities for different languages seemed to center around different geographical locations. She told me there were a lot of Java jobs in Dade County, FL (i.e. Miami) but they disappeared going north across the county line and then the demand started for .NET developers and some PHP (but not anywhere near the demand for .NET)

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Ben Shelden <aboutwork@benshelden.com> wrote: > I was speaking with a recruiter and she was telling me that she found it interesting how the job opportunities for different languages seemed to center around different geographical locations. She told me there were a lot of Java jobs in Dade County, FL (i.e. Miami) but they disappeared going north across the county line and then the demand started for .NET developers and some PHP (but not anywhere near the demand for .NET) Interesting to hear. I think a lot of CF work has disappeared from the Bay Area (even tho' we still have three strong CFUGs) - and now companies are finding it hard to recruit good CFers here - because many CFers moved to where there were more CF jobs or learned other languages and are gainfully employed already. It definitely speaks to the need for developers to be multi-lingual if they want to avoid roaming around, following their technology to wherever its jobs are hot (although I've never had any problems getting telecommute work and the project I'm on right now only has 2 CFers on-site - everyone else, including the designer and the DBA, are remote). -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood

I'm considering moving back to Northern Virginia if the right opportunity presents itself. CF in the Raleigh/Durham area is almost non existent (job wise) I was laid off two weeks ago because my employer pushed everything to either Sharepoint or a new accounting system. What's unfortunate is that I wasn't given the opportunity to plead my case, because I believe that they'll wind up spending more on Epicor and Sharepoint then what they were paying me per year. I believe that we as developers need to push and promote ColdFusion, and the open source versions (Railo, Open BD). I'm forever hearing .Net and PHP developers saying " our stuff is free and ColdFusion isn't". You can expound on the death of CF or you can get out there and promote. I think the availability of CF jobs depends a lot on how far you are willing to move and where you live. I lost my job at the end of October last year and I have not been seeing listed CF jobs around West Palm Beach, FL. I see plenty of job openings in the Northern Virginia area and jobs scattered around the country for those willing to relocate. I'm still looking for CF employment but I've started teaching myself .NET because there are a lot of .NET jobs available around where I live. I was speaking with a recruiter and she was telling me that she found it interesting how the job opportunities for different languages seemed to center around different geographical locations. She told me there were a lot of Java jobs in Dade County, FL (i.e. Miami) but they disappeared going north across the county line and then the demand started for .NET developers and some PHP (but not anywhere near the demand for .NET)

Too bad you couldn't convince them to migrate to ColdFusion 9 which has built in Sharepoint integration out of the box. abdy I'm considering moving back to Northern Virginia if the right opportunity presents itself. CF in the Raleigh/Durham area is almost non existent (job wise) I was laid off two weeks ago because my employer pushed everything to either Sharepoint or a new accounting system. What's unfortunate is that I wasn't given the opportunity to plead my case, because I believe that they'll wind up spending more on Epicor and Sharepoint then what they were paying me per year. I believe that we as developers need to push and promote ColdFusion, and the open source versions (Railo, Open BD). I'm forever hearing .Net and PHP developers saying " our stuff is free and ColdFusion isn't". You can expound on the death of CF or you can get out there and promote. I think the availability of CF jobs depends a lot on how far you are willing to move and where you live. I lost my job at the end of October last year and I have not been seeing listed CF jobs around West Palm Beach, FL. I see plenty of job openings in the Northern Virginia area and jobs scattered around the country for those willing to relocate. I'm still looking for CF employment but I've started teaching myself .NET because there are a lot of .NET jobs available around where I live. I was speaking with a recruiter and she was telling me that she found it interesting how the job opportunities for different languages seemed to center around different geographical locations. She told me there were a lot of Java jobs in Dade County, FL (i.e. Miami) but they disappeared going north across the county line and then the demand started for .NET developers and some PHP (but not anywhere near the demand for .NET)

We had CF9 dev servers, I knew about Sharepoint integration, the new executive staff were sold on Sharepoint from previous gigs. I had lined up all kinds of solutions to the company's requirements built in CF. I just hadn't had the chance to deploy them. I have *never* seen an effective deployment of Sharepoint. Too bad you couldn't convince them to migrate to ColdFusion 9 which has built in Sharepoint integration out of the box. abdy I'm considering moving back to Northern Virginia if the right opportunity presents itself. CF in the Raleigh/Durham area is almost non existent (job wise) I was laid off two weeks ago because my employer pushed everything to either Sharepoint or a new accounting system. What's unfortunate is that I wasn't given the opportunity to plead my case, because I believe that they'll wind up spending more on Epicor and Sharepoint then what they were paying me per year. I believe that we as developers need to push and promote ColdFusion, and the open source versions (Railo, Open BD). I'm forever hearing .Net and PHP developers saying " our stuff is free and ColdFusion isn't". You can expound on the death of CF or you can get out there and promote. I think the availability of CF jobs depends a lot on how far you are willing to move and where you live. I lost my job at the end of October last year and I have not been seeing listed CF jobs around West Palm Beach, FL. I see plenty of job openings in the Northern Virginia area and jobs scattered around the country for those willing to relocate. I'm still looking for CF employment but I've started teaching myself .NET because there are a lot of .NET jobs available around where I live. I was speaking with a recruiter and she was telling me that she found it interesting how the job opportunities for different languages seemed to center around different geographical locations. She told me there were a lot of Java jobs in Dade County, FL (i.e. Miami) but they disappeared going north across the county line and then the demand started for .NET developers and some PHP (but not anywhere near the demand for .NET)

---- Scott Stewart <sstwebworks@bellsouth.net> wrote: > I have *never* seen an effective deployment of Sharepoint. You know, I have heard this many times, but it seems implausible. Why would CxOs continue to buy a product that takes so much work by so many expensive consultants to get it running? My feeling is that Microsoft has done a very good job of marketing to corporate decision makers. I do have knowledge of a number of SP projects that have been canceled after a while, but I don't know if it was due to the technology or whether the project managers or designers were incompetent. -- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-austin/8/a4/60 http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek http://www.misshunt.com/ Home of the Clean/Dirty Magnet http://cfinnc.com/ ColdFusion Conference in North Carolina

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Because it cements said CxO into a job. Its called 'make-work'. And they will never be blamed for implementing Microsoft. (sung to the tune of you'll never be blamed for buying IBM).

Please move this discussion off list thx Sent from my mobile device On Jan 22, 2010, at 8:10 PM, Bryn Parrott   <bryn_parrott@internode.on.net> wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- >near the demand for .NET)

Concerning " our stuff is free and ColdFusion isn't", it is difficult to program in .NET without Visual Studio Professional and that cost $800. Microsoft will find a way to cost those developers money. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Cold Fusion certainly has its threats, with .Net, PHP, Python & etc > alternatives out there.  Originally CF had the game to itself and it > was an original concept that helped ignite enthusiasm and help to turn > the web into what it is today. Wait Bryn, you mean the days when CGI people were swearing that coldfusion weren't going anywhere, Flash was just a gleam in Future Splash's pants, And I.E. was Leno and Netscape was Conan? Lol Chung

> weren't going anywhere, Flash was just a gleam in Future Splash's pants,                              ^^^^^^ You really messed up that expression. Just thought I'd point that out. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

> you mean the days when CGI people were swearing that >coldfusion >weren't going anywhere, Flash was just a gleam in Future Splash's pants, >And I.E. was Leno and Netscape was Conan? Lol Yep ... Back in the good old days when there was no competing technology ... ..er hem..

Sorry Dave.  Blame it on no caffeine on the account of just waking up to this discussion. Lol ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----