Flex vs Ajax

I'm putting together a small Flex vs. Ajax list for dealing with clients and would love is people can point out where I'm wrong and what I've missed. Thanks Assume that price is not an issue (it's not), here are the basic advantages/disadvantages Flex advantages: very capable IDE, Images are part of a flash movie and can't be downloaded directly, supported by Adobe, XML based language, ability to leverage flash components into the application, great speed increase over previous versions of flash (if that was even possible). Flex disadvantages: Needs the flash player, Need to learn and XML based language and possibly actionscript to build real applications Ajax advantages: pre-built frameworks can be leveraged, familiar to those who know HTML, Javascript, etc. no need for additional software past an up-to-date browser, open standard Ajax disadvantages: No IDE, no browser standards (slight alterations per browser), hard to build components outside of frameworks (in general), images and other data open and available. Michael Dinowitz President: House of Fusion     http://www.houseoffusion.com Publisher: Fusion Authority     http://www.fusionauthority.com Adobe Community Expert

A few thoughts, Ajax is great in an incremental way. Because you can build in Ajax functionality a little at a time it's not an all or nothing decision. However I've had many people tell me as an AJAX project gets larger managing the Ajax application and libraries can really get out of hand. But it's great when you want to make a static page richer. One problem, proprietary xml formats. From what I've found most ajax "frameworks" are looking for specific xml elements. They all have their own idea of what the xml should look like. Meaning if you want to swap our the js library (openRico, spry, etc..) half way through development you have to change the code on the server to generate a different XML packets. Or if you want to use multiple frameworks you need to code the server to return the same data in different xml formats. Data: Ajax support XML. Flex supports XML (http or webservices), AMF (a lot smaller and faster), RTMP (push), data services, native data type support, Value Objects. With Ajax, and XML in Flex, you are creating and parsing xml on the client and server. In general xml parsing is slow, you'll never notice it will small records. But a grid with a couple of hundred or more records and you will notice it. This is when AMF shines. As for learning XML to know flex. You know CF and html right, Think of flex as a well formed tag based language, not xml. If that helps. However, you do need to learn actionscript. Hth, ---nimer I'm putting together a small Flex vs. Ajax list for dealing with clients and would love is people can point out where I'm wrong and what I've missed. Thanks Assume that price is not an issue (it's not), here are the basic advantages/disadvantages Flex advantages: very capable IDE, Images are part of a flash movie and can't be downloaded directly, supported by Adobe, XML based language, ability to leverage flash components into the application, great speed increase over previous versions of flash (if that was even possible). Flex disadvantages: Needs the flash player, Need to learn and XML based language and possibly actionscript to build real applications Ajax advantages: pre-built frameworks can be leveraged, familiar to those who know HTML, Javascript, etc. no need for additional software past an up-to-date browser, open standard Ajax disadvantages: No IDE, no browser standards (slight alterations per browser), hard to build components outside of frameworks (in general), images and other data open and available. Michael Dinowitz President: House of Fusion     http://www.houseoffusion.com Publisher: Fusion Authority     http://www.fusionauthority.com Adobe Community Expert

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I've done several AJAX updates to sites where I've never touched XML. It's much more faster to use JSON and parsing a JSON package is next to nothing.  It's one simple eval statement.  Really though, AJAX supports a lot more than XML, you can pass whatever you want through it....HTML, text, SOAP, JSON, etc. -- There more than one answer to these questions pointing me in a crooked line. And the less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am to fine.

so in Ajax world, what is the perfered defacto method of formatting data to use in Ajax code?  Is there one so that any member of my team of developers can quickly modify the code? One point I'd add is dev speed and app size.  For a large app that has drag+drop, charting, rich forms, messaging, etc Flex seems to have Ajax beat in dev time.  Add to this you really don't need to worry about browser versions that much. Of course as soon as someone develops the ulitmate Ajax IDE, this may all change.  I'd say a uber IDE that does Ajax with the ease Flex Builder does is the Web 2.0 killer app.  With Adobe Spry being introduced,  maybe we can ssupect they are developing one, eh? DK ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> so in Ajax world, what is the perfered defacto method of formatting > data to use in Ajax code?  Is there one so that any member of my team > of developers can quickly modify the code? From what I've seen, there is no de facto method, but then again, there's not a downside to that for me either.  Depending on what my functions need to do, I'll return whatever data format fits that best. 90% of the time I use JSON just because there's no need to parse the data and it's a relatively small package. > > One point I'd add is dev speed and app size.  For a large app that has > drag+drop, charting, rich forms, messaging, etc Flex seems to have > Ajax beat in dev time.  Add to this you really don't need to worry > about browser versions that much. I've been playing around with Flex the past couple of days, I've even purchased Flex Builder to use in an upcoming project.  I really do like it, but I still see some faults. #1 - The loading screen.  When someone goes to a web page, they don't want the page to load up just to post another message saying "Loading xx%" #2 - File size.  Unless I'm doing something wrong, the file sizes on just the lesson projects are relatively huge.  125K for the smallest and 244K for the largest.  This cuts out dialup people.  My deployment plans are almost exclusively intranet. #3 - Flash Player 9.0 required.  Yes, I know, Flash is installed on 97% of all computers.  But not Flash 9.0.  Also, as with our organization, we're starting to lock down users' computers even more so that Flash isn't upgradeable by anyone other than a "power user" or higher. #4 - Components.  Flex ships with some really neat components, but I've already noticed some things that I'd like to have.  With javascript/AJAX, typically someone has already figured out the need and more than likely it's open sourced.  With Flex, I'm probably going to have to program something with the timeline.  Uggh! -- There more than one answer to these questions pointing me in a crooked line. And the less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am to fine.

  We have different experiences with Flex. #1 I agree.  It's not a whole lot different than annoying splash pages. #2: 125K / 244K is the initial load of the application.  After that, you are just passing data back and forth.  With a normal web app, you're passing "the app" back and forth each time.  I've heard that many Flex apps use less bandwidth overall.  Is 244K really too much for a modem user when they are no subsequent loads of anything except data?  ( I guess only you can decide, depending on your situation ) #3 You're right; I agree. in some situations Flash 9 is going to be hindrance, on others it won't matter. #4: You can create components in Flex.  Even with my limited experience, I can't fathom creating a Flex app as a single component.  What can't you do in Flex that you would be able to do in Flash? At 12:17 PM 7/10/2006, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I'm not talking a normal web app though.  With AJAX, I'm only passing back and forth the parts that I need.  It's very similar to the Flex way of doing things.  Adobe/Macromedia recommendeds that you don't program a whole web site with 1 Flex app either. > #3 You're right; I agree. in some situations Flash 9 is going to be > hindrance, on others it won't matter. > > #4: You can create components in Flex.  Even with my limited experience, I > can't fathom creating a Flex app as a single component.  What can't you do > in Flex that you would be able to do in Flash? > Well, take for instance MikeyD's request for a zooming tool for pictures.  The only suggestions were Flash programs. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>  Images are part > of a flash movie There is such a thing as a flash decompiler. -- Tom Chiverton **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

Um, Print Screen? :) Folks should never assume an image on a screen is safe. > Flex advantages: very capable IDE, Images are part of a flash movie and can't be downloaded directly, supported by Adobe, XML based language, ability to leverage flash -- =========================================================================== Raymond Camden, Vice President of Technology for roundpeg Email    : jedimaster@roundpeg.com Blog     : ray.camdenfamily.com AOL IM   : cfjedimaster "My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

  What Print Screen? <http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060707/124202.shtml>; At 09:09 AM 7/10/2006, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Heh. I still say DRM is a big bunch of hooey. If you don't like it, don't buy it. No one says you have a constitutional right ot the latest Britney Spears album. It isn't a difficult process. Just don't buy the media with the DRM that bugs you. Anyway, sorry to get off topic. Forget I said anything. ;) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>   What Print Screen? Dunno what he meant either. I might have known yesterday, but apparently it's illegal to know how to bypass security procedures in a piece of software, so I've had to forget. Someone came around yesterday and put a little perspex box with a padlock over one of the keys on my keyboard, along with a tamper-evident seal with *very* small writing on it. Very odd. -- Tom Chiverton **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

One I have wondered, and do not know enough Ajax to answer. Can one easily create applications where the server pushes data to clients with Ajax tools? -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA --------- | 1 |   | ---------  Binary Soduko |   |   | --------- "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

  AJAX is browser based, and therefore limited by the 'request / response' paradigm.  ( that means no )   You might be able to achieve push-like functionality with an AJAX app that routinely checks the server for updated data; but   Michael, "Server Push" might be something to add to the list of Flex benefits over AJAX. At 07:39 PM 7/7/2006, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

  Oops; I sent too early.   AJAX is browser based, and therefore limited by the 'request / response' paradigm.  ( that means no )   You might be able to achieve push-like functionality with an AJAX app that routinely checks the server for updated data; but that is not the same thing.   Michael, "Server Push" might be something to add to the list of Flex benefits over AJAX. At 07:39 PM 7/7/2006, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

>  You might be able to achieve push-like functionality with an AJAX app >  that routinely checks the server for updated data; but that would just be a pull model, just frequent pulling.  I am not saying that a pull model will not often work, but when one really needs a push, one needs a push! :-) -------------- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA --------- | 1 |   | ---------  Binary Soduko |   |   | --------- "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!" - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

  No argument from me. ;) At 07:59 PM 7/7/2006, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

While it is still a pull thing, Spry does let you hook up an XML feed to your front end and automatically refresh it at a certain interval. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

Douglas, #1: Disagree: you can fully customize your "preloader" so loading xx% can be replace with anything else. #2: I agree with Jeff. #3: Our desktops all totally locked to users but Flash Player is deployed with MS SMS. There are some solutions for software deployment. #4: If something is missing in a component you can always extend them and add your own functionality. There are some guys (look in the mxna aggregator) releasing their components and most of them are open sourced(just like the SDK). can you explain better "With Flex, I'm probably going to have to program something with the timeline." João Fernandes   We have different experiences with Flex. #1 I agree.  It's not a whole lot different than annoying splash pages. #2: 125K / 244K is the initial load of the application.  After that, you are just passing data back and forth.  With a normal web app, you're passing "the app" back and forth each time.  I've heard that many Flex apps use less bandwidth overall.  Is 244K really too much for a modem user when they are no subsequent loads of anything except data?  ( I guess only you can decide, depending on your situation ) #3 You're right; I agree. in some situations Flash 9 is going to be hindrance, on others it won't matter. #4: You can create components in Flex.  Even with my limited experience, I can't fathom creating a Flex app as a single component.  What can't you do in Flex that you would be able to do in Flash? At 12:17 PM 7/10/2006, you wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> Douglas, > > #1: Disagree: you can fully customize your "preloader" so loading xx% can be replace with anything else. > The thing is, there's a 2nd "loading" phase, no matter what the preloader looks like. > #2: I agree with Jeff. > > #3: Our desktops all totally locked to users but Flash Player is deployed with MS SMS. There are some solutions for software deployment. > true, that's why I think it's great for intranets.  We can control the computers.  Beyond our building, it's a crap shoot. > #4: If something is missing in a component you can always extend them and add your own functionality. There are some guys (look in the mxna aggregator) releasing their components and most of them are open sourced(just like the SDK). > can you explain better "With Flex, I'm probably going to have to program something with the timeline." > I'm referring to creating something in Flash. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> The thing is, there's a 2nd "loading" phase, no matter what the > preloader looks like. I've never seen an AJAX framework that doesn't have one too. > > #2: I agree with Jeff. Yeah, it's a bit big, but broadband is *huge* and *cheap*. > > #3: Our desktops all totally locked to users but Flash Player is deployed > > with MS SMS. There are some solutions for software deployment. Same here. Normal home users get a in-page update without having to touch anything, and corporate users will generally be using it for intranets, where the company can choose to role out the new Player to them all. > > #4: If something is missing in a component you can always extend them and It's a lot easier to build up a decent library of your own components in Flex than to try and write the same things in DHTML, even with something like Spry. As to timelines, been doing Flex2 for about 3 months now, and not had too touch it. Whatever it is. As to the image zooming thing using a Flash component - so ? Flash is Flex is ActionScript. I'm fairly sure I've seen a method for taking a bitmap and scaling it real-time in Flex, but as I can't find the reference haven't posted it. -- Tom Chiverton **************************************************** This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.   If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.

At 07:45 PM 7/10/2006, you wrote: >#4: If something is missing in a component you can always extend them and >add your own functionality. There are some guys (look in the mxna >aggregator) releasing their components and most of them are open >sourced(just like the SDK). >can you explain better "With Flex, I'm probably going to have to program >something with the timeline."   I took that to mean that he was going to have to use Flash to create components that could be used in Flex.  I was under the impression this was possible in earlier versions.  but, with the most recent update I'm not sure why  you wouldn't just create Flex components in Flex. -- Jeffry Houser, Software Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: <http://www.dot-com-it.com> My Books: <http://www.instantcoldfusion.com> My Recording Studio: <http://www.fcfstudios.com> Connecticut Macromedia User Group: <http://www.ctmug.com> Now Blogging at <http://www.jeffryhouser.com>