Can I get your opinions?

Hi Guys, I'm after a little bit of help trying to answer the age-old question of whether or not my company should move towards developing in Java or .NET (I've cross posted this to the other group).  I've also posted this on my blog.  I'm kinda getting a little desperate for some good honest help from people with experience so can anyone help me out? http://blog.feed-squirrel.com/2007/08/24/the-big-platform-debate/ Cheers guys Neil

I don't get it? Are you trying to figure out if its best to write ColdFusion on the Java platform vs .NET? The answer is pretty obvious.... ColdFusion _is_ Java. -Adam ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

While I agree the question is vague, this is the .NET list, so I'd guess we were talking about switching to a lower-level language. If that's the case, the answer isn't obvious at all. Java has a lot of traction because it was the hot new thing 10 years ago, it's well established. It's mature. There are a lot of Java developers out there. Java has strong roots and support from open source, and is most prominent on server-side applications. Application development is really targeted at objected oriented perfection. The true heroes in the Java community are those people who make infinitely extensible applications, those who find the truest path to object oriented nirvana and those who make the most elegant designs. Downsides for Java are the ever-present lack of UI love, in comparison to .NET, when you install visual studio, you're ready to make a desktop app in 10 seconds, but java is traditionally much more difficult. Of course we're web developers here, so let's talk database drivers. Sun helps the community come up with a spec, it's up to 3rd parties to create the actual implementations. You'll find a lot of that. Thus, you have to do a fair amount of hunting for 3rd party libraries to tie your application together. Spring, Hibernate, SWT, JDBC and JEE implementations, etc, etc, etc, none provided by Sun. .NET has traction mainly because Microsoft said it does. It's like the dollar, it has value because the U.S. government says so. And in turn, Microsoft now says so because it actually does. Playing with c# certainly feels like a newer language. Ms has the resources to dedicate as many people to the framework and runtime as it does to their IDE, so the tools are great and a lot of everything you need is first-party material, easy to get. There is a stronger focus on applications than on libraries. Ms really does well at making the lame parts braindead easy (like deploying your app once completed). The effect of having simple tools is that there is less focus on purity of code and applications. .NET is newer, and less mature, which seems, IMO, to translate to lack of help for enterprise type applications. For desktop applications, less people have the runtime installed on their desktops, and it only really works on Windows. Please note that there is no real difference in speed. Some things seem faster here or there, but this really, REALLY should not be a concern when picking or even comparing platforms. If you are a CF shop and you're switching to straight Java or .NET, it's a hard pick either way, however, I think CF developers can switch to ASP.NETeasier than they could to JSP or JSF. Total personal opinion there. If you're a real OO shop doing CF, wanting to switch to one, I might say Java is the way, just because a lot of the libraries make more sense. Partial classes, *.IO.File differences. I prefer the java way. But linq, GUI builders and web apps, I prefer .NET. You'll get no real answers from me :) -- nathan strutz http://www.dopefly.com/ ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

All valid points, but I find the biggest problem with .NET is lack of choice. You go down the .NET path then everything you do will be tied to Microsoft. You don't have options like which operating system to use, or which application server to deploy on, or which web server, or which IDE, or which.... you get what I'm saying. With MS, you have to drink the Koolaid and finish the pitcher, there is no sipping (unless you are leveraging .NET from CF8 which put Java and .NET in perfect harmony). So .NET is great if you don't mind committing to that sort of totalitarian dictatorship and you don't mind that any innovation will have to come from a company that owns a monopoly on your technology. In turn, innovation in java is powered by the community. It's powered by open source. That's one thing .NET does not seem to do well at all. I guess the real question is why isn't ColdFusion meeting you needs? I can understand the move to java, but I can't get why anyone would want to take a step back. Here's a good example of why CF is superior to .NET (ironically posted earlier today). http://www.mischefamily.com/nathan/index.cfm/2007/8/24/ColdFusion-vs-ASPNET -Adam ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

What we are looking at is moving away from CFML towards something a little more flexible and powerful.  The reasoning for this is that we have a particulary heavy data tier, and require all sorts of messaging and transactional control that CFML cannot easily provide.  We also quite like the option of not having to pay masses for server licenses.. We're already settled on either Java or .NET (and our legacy CFML) but need to know the details.  You can read loads of stuff on the web but this is nearly always biased one way or the other.  So, as I stated in my blog post: The things I want to hear most about are:     * Cost     * Performance     * Reliability     * Flexibility     * Development Times     * Front-end technologies and ease of use     * Data tier integration     * Support     * The bad bits (i.e the stuff you don't find out about until trying to fix a bug the night before a deadline)     * Tooling (Eclipse vs Visual Studio) Does anyone have any fairly non-biased opinons on these points? I don't get it? Are you trying to figure out if its best to write ColdFusion on the Java platform vs .NET? The answer is pretty obvious.... ColdFusion _is_ Java. -Adam ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> What we are looking at is moving away from CFML towards something a little > more flexible and powerful. "more flexible and powerful"?? > The reasoning for this is that we have a > particulary heavy data tier, and require all sorts of messaging and > transactional control that CFML cannot easily provide. What sort of messaging and transactional control? ColdFusion has JMS support (and CF8's new ActiveMQ gateway supports a lot more features than the old JMS gateway in CFMX7). What exactly is it that your think you need? -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood

It seems cfml world is trying to shadow java frameworks these days... orm (or trying) model-glue and the likes. Is loosely typed the appealing factor here but yet convert to java? Does cfml have a good logging framework? So, the option is use Log4J in cfml, why not just go the java route...Open Source=FREE. - Joe ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> It seems cfml world is trying to shadow java frameworks these days... Or perhaps Rails or Drupal or any number of frameworks in non-Java languages... Some people really have Java blinders on and can't see the programming world through any other lens! > Is loosely typed the > appealing factor here but yet convert to java? And what about all the Java fanboi types flocking to Ruby, Groovy, Python etc? > Does cfml have a good > logging framework? *yawn* That's such a minor, low-level concern. Do you read Hani's blog? He has plenty to say about the "Java Open Sores" community and their obsession with logging :) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood

<cflog> works fine for us :-) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

This is not about trying to beat up cfml or anything. > Or perhaps Rails or Drupal or any number of frameworks in non-Java languages... You really wont find many top software companies developing software in Ruby or other.. adobe is a good example. What is cfmx developed in? Java? Is there any product developed in ruby or python? - Joe ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

> This is not about trying to beat up cfml or anything. > > > Or perhaps Rails or Drupal or any number of frameworks in non-Java languages... > > You really wont find many top software companies developing software > in Ruby or other. Really? Your claim is based on what? Intuition? Ignorance? Not to start a flamewar but that's a pretty ridiculous statement. Let's take a quick look at one technology consulting bellweather -- Thoughtworks. They are *agressively* moving into Ruby, specifically Ruby on Rails, and their client base is Global Fortune 100 as well as Silicon Valley startups. They provide a full deployment stack, automation tools, management tools, and $$$$$$$ consulting for Rails. FiveRuns is getting into the Rails management space as well. Thoughtworks made/makes a lot of their consulting money from the Java game, but they're moving hard on Ruby. And of course Sun. Which has (see if this sounds familiar as a ColdFusion developer) written a Ruby server (JRuby) that compiles to Java bytecode. So I can deploy a WAR file writting in Java, written in ColdFusion, or JRuby (or Jython for that matter) and the server can't tell the difference. Most of the high-end Java folks I know (James Duncan Davidson, Erik Hatcher, Glenn Vandenburg, Rich Kilmer, etc etc) are now Ruby developers. Hmmm. . adobe is a good example. What is cfmx developed in? > Java? And what is Flash and PDF built in -- the two real products of Adobe? Java? Heck no. Nor are their desktop products (Dreamweaver, Illustrator, etc). Heck, unless things have changed, my understanding (which I'll admit was based on rumor more than anything) was that CF Report Builder was written in Delphi (much like HomeSite... love that Nick Bradbury) There are very few commercial desktop applications written in Java compared to the many, many written in variations of C (with Eclipse and NetBeans being two developer-centric major exceptions). > Is there any product developed in ruby or python? Sure, though it depends on what you mean by "product". ColdFusion isn't exactly the same thing as Dreamweaver as far as a product goes (one's a server, one's a desktop app). But the obvious Ruby products are the constellation of properties that 37Signals produces (Basecamp, HighRise, Campfire, etc) and Twitter just to name two A-list products. The obvious Python product is the Lawrence, KS-based newspaper syndicate that uses and created Django to power online newspapers. For more serious applications, I'll point to Squeak (a form of Smalltalk) that is used in the massively distributed system that runs the bulk of the worldwide shipping container business (one pillar of our global economy). And then there's always Python (and Lisp) running major portions of the backend of the airline ticketing system built by ITA, which powers many of the major airlines. (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2100629,00.asp) -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) ashenfelterj@transitionpoint.com

> Really? Your claim is based on what? Intuition? Ignorance? Its unfortunate you think so... Take a look at Insurance, Banking, Trading etc.. most software products in major production enviornments are developed in Java or C++. Look at IBM or Oracle, two giant software companies... most of their products are java centric. Enter the ERP world... What is SAP up to these days? Go take a look at Google jobs for that matter... Of course you gonna see people like yourself and others doing stuff in Ruby, Pyton and tomorrow Zyton or whatever else. If you enjoy switching between languages for fun and moving your application from one platform to the next.. do it and am sure it will be great ROI for your business. This is not another which language is better war... its a waste of time. END-THREAD - Joe ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----

If I may extend the thread for at least one more message, Joe, we know each other so you know I'm not trying to pile on here. But tying your last note to your first, it's interesting that you ask first why people bother to write in CFML (and work to make it more Java like), but then you recognize below the challenge with "switching between languages" and "moving your application from one platform to the next". It just seems curious that people will praise those who use one language/platform for sticking with it, while decrying other who stick to theirs. It's just that not everyone needs or wants all that pure native Java offers. They're happy with CF. Some are happy "dumb", some are happy "smart". But like you said, you weren't trying to bash CFML, and neither was Neil in raising the original question. Like others, he's just decided to make the move. Many have done it before. Some happily, some have come back. Others have fought through the pain and come out on the other side (whether in Java, .NET, or something else). One thing I do lament is that often things are "better" as much because the redesigned the system along with the transition (and probably brought in some bright bulbs to help lead the effort). I'd be in most cases, had they just done the same thing with their CFML, it would have all been better on CFML as well. But yes, some will argue it's easier to find quality people in the more popular platforms. That's just supply and demand. But folks who stay with CF are not hopeless or helpless. Just seems worth repeating for any reading this thread who might have been led to think otherwise. /charlie > Really? Your claim is based on what? Intuition? Ignorance? Its unfortunate you think so... Take a look at Insurance, Banking, Trading etc.. most software products in major production enviornments are developed in Java or C++. Look at IBM or Oracle, two giant software companies... most of their products are java centric. Enter the ERP world... What is SAP up to these days? Go take a look at Google jobs for that matter... Of course you gonna see people like yourself and others doing stuff in Ruby, Pyton and tomorrow Zyton or whatever else. If you enjoy switching between languages for fun and moving your application from one platform to the next.. do it and am sure it will be great ROI for your business. This is not another which language is better war... its a waste of time. END-THREAD - Joe

----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Or look at Microsoft, one giant software company. They don't use a lot of Java. And there are *plenty* of ERP, CRM, and accounting packages written in the various MS technologies. Not to mention the LISP, Matlab, Mathematica and similar analysis programs that drive the bottom line of sophisticated insurance, banking, and trading firms. Or the Perl applications that are heavily used in the bio and life sciences > Of course you gonna see people like yourself and others doing stuff in > Ruby, Pyton and tomorrow Zyton or whatever else. If you enjoy > switching between languages for fun and moving your application from > one platform to the next.. do it and am sure it will be great ROI for > your business. My business is about solving business problems with software, no more or less. I don't have just a hammer -- I have a *toolbox* of hard and soft skills. I don't need to move my application from one language to another to improve the ROI of my business -- I do just fine by focusing on solving problems and applying the right tools for the job. Sometimes that's CF, sometimes it's Ruby, sometimes it's a package off the shelf. And every once in a while, it's Java ;) (of course that may well be through ColdFusion or JRuby but that's splitting hairs). Heck, my first commercial app was based on Visual Basic for DOS 1.0.... > This is not another which language is better war... its a waste of time. It sure it a waste of time to argue which language is better with no context -- they all have different strengths and weaknesses. But it's also a waste of time to make broad statements of "fact" about what "most software products" are built with/in. > END-THREAD Agreed. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more -----