Learning path

As a Asp developer making the transition to Java ,Java beans and Jsp where would anyone suggest his or her learning path be any sites out there not just to get up to speed or tutorials but to design a site or case study using Jsp,Java and Xml etc? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Check out http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/?frontpage-spotlight great tutorials etc.. .. Justin ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Bert, I know you're asking for materials that "aren't just tutorial but also design and case study", but since others have asked about the general transition from ASP (or CF, PHP, Perl, etc.) to servlets/JSP, here are some thoughts that cover a little of all three. Folks really do need to learn quite a lot to be truly effective: Java, as a base, for sure, and of course J2EE (servlets, JSP's and EJB's, at least) in general. A big challenge, I find, is that the beginning Java books often focus on teaching client-side Java for a substantial percentage of the book. While books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and rightly so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's not a bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who wants to learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of course folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to its credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus on either "side" of the platform. On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already know java but they're generally focused on teaching web app development to those experienced java programmers. As such, not only must you know Java to really get into the books, but you have to weed through some web app development info you may already know--or bear with the author's potential newness to web app development (I find a lot of J2EE books fail to suggest or demonstrate such simple things as JavaScript, for instance. OK, so one can learn it elsewhere, but someone needs to lead those using J2EE as their first web app platform to appreciate why it's worth doing). Then there's the whole debate over EJBs (should you, shouldn't you), understanding the difference between javabeans and EJBs, weeding through books that discuss javabeans for their use in client-side development only, etc. Among the more popular resources for server-side development are Core Servlets and JSP, Professional Java Server Programming J2EE Ed., O'Reilly's Enterprise JavaBeans, and others. Of course, Sun has its J2EE tutorial (http://java.sun.com/j2ee/tutorial/index.html), the J2EE Blueprints, and many other resources. At least, in the case of a real walkthrough, the Java Pet Store example from Sun is a reasonably complete application and the BluePrints book (online and in print as "Java 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition BluePrints") walks one through it and the solutions employed in it. See http://java.sun.com/j2ee/blueprints/ for these and lots more. On another tack, if those making the move to servlets/JSP are also new to object-oriented programming and design (haven't had C++, SmallTalk, or similar experience), that's another whole level of complexity to be understood (and effectively used). For this, I'd strongly recommend Jacquie Barker's "Beginning Java Objects" (Wrox). While some may argue against it as a first java book, I think for the right audience it's great for just that. And this audience may be especially well-suited to its approach. I found no other book did as good a job at putting OO (programming AND design AND implementation--and even UML and more) all into perspective. Then, there's the whole matter of patterns. You won't get far before discussions of "observers", "proxies", "factories", "facades" and lots more start cropping up. Of course, the seminal work is "Design Patterns" from Gamma, et al (with its distinct C++ focus, though still foundational for all OO programmers), and one of its co-authors wrote "Pattern Hatching". There are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in Java. Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE patterns covered in a book ("Core J2EE Patterns") and a sun site (http://java.sun.com/j2ee/blueprints/design_patterns/index.html). There's clearly a need in the market for something to address the audience of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting languages to JSP/Servlets, etc, especially if they're also new to Java. For now, you have to pick and choose. On the training front, Macromedia's recognized this need with their split of the former "servlets, jsp and java" class into a new "java for web developers" class focused on just the kind of core java needed to get started, then offering "fasttrack to jsp" to cover JSP basics, and a coming "Building j2ee applications with JRun" class (still in the works) to get more into JDBC, servlets, javabeans, EJBs, and more. Then there are sites like jspinsider.com, jguru.com, theserverside.com, and others, as well as magazines like Java Developers Journal, Java Pro, and Java Report. I'm sure others will have still more suggested resources, and I'd certainly welcome their feedback if any on those mentioned here. /charlie As a Asp developer making the transition to Java ,Java beans and Jsp where would anyone suggest his or her learning path be any sites out there not just to get up to speed or tutorials but to design a site or case study using Jsp,Java and Xml etc? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Excellent, Charlie is right on target. I have spent much money picking up books only to find them inadequate for what I need to do. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for this community to take the initiative to write a book, collaboratively, that addresses the need (we have been waiting for that book that has it all).  In addition, code good examples of actual sites out there (if permitted) can also enhance the learning curve. > Bert, I know you're asking for materials that "aren't just tutorial but also > design and case study", but since others have asked about the general > transition from ASP (or CF, PHP, Perl, etc.) to servlets/JSP, here are some > thoughts that cover a little of all three. Folks really do need to learn > quite a lot to be truly effective: Java, as a base, for sure, and of course > J2EE (servlets, JSP's and EJB's, at least) in general. > > A big challenge, I find, is that the beginning Java books often focus on > teaching client-side Java for a substantial percentage of the book. While > books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and rightly > so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's not a > bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who wants to > learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of course > folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to its > credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side > development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus on > either "side" of the platform. > > On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already know > java but they're generally focused on teaching web app development to those > experienced java programmers. As such, not only must you know Java to really ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- only, > etc. > > Among the more popular resources for server-side development are Core > Servlets and JSP, Professional Java Server Programming J2EE Ed., O'Reilly's > Enterprise JavaBeans, and others. Of course, Sun has its J2EE tutorial > (http://java.sun.com/j2ee/tutorial/index.html), the J2EE Blueprints, and > many other resources. > > At least, in the case of a real walkthrough, the Java Pet Store example from > Sun is a reasonably complete application and the BluePrints book (online and ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Jacquie > Barker's "Beginning Java Objects" (Wrox). While some may argue against it as > a first java book, I think for the right audience it's great for just that. > And this audience may be especially well-suited to its approach. I found no > other book did as good a job at putting OO (programming AND design AND > implementation--and even UML and more) all into perspective. > > Then, there's the whole matter of patterns. You won't get far before > discussions of "observers", "proxies", "factories", "facades" and lots more > start cropping up. Of course, the seminal work is "Design Patterns" from > Gamma, et al (with its distinct C++ focus, though still foundational for all > OO programmers), and one of its co-authors wrote "Pattern Hatching". There > are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in Java. > Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE patterns > covered in a book ("Core J2EE Patterns") and a sun site > (http://java.sun.com/j2ee/blueprints/design_patterns/index.html). > > There's clearly a need in the market for something to address the audience > of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting languages to > JSP/Servlets, etc, especially if they're also new to Java. For now, you have > to pick and choose. > > On the training front, Macromedia's recognized this need with their split of > the former "servlets, jsp and java" class into a new "java for web > developers" class focused on just the kind of core java needed to get > started, then offering "fasttrack to jsp" to cover JSP basics, and a coming > "Building j2ee applications with JRun" class (still in the works) to get > more into JDBC, servlets, javabeans, EJBs, and more. > > Then there are sites like jspinsider.com, jguru.com, theserverside.com, and > others, as well as magazines like Java Developers Journal, Java Pro, and > Java Report. > > I'm sure others will have still more suggested resources, and I'd certainly ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

I am currently writing a book for JRun based on Ben Forta's Web Application Construction Kit. I am using most of the examples from his upcoming CF 5 version, so this book will be great for anyone who is already experienced using CF. I am already a good way done writing it, so I don't have the ability to make any major changes, but if anyone has any ideas, please send me an email. I'm sure it won't "have it all", but hopefully it will at least cover some of the major issues that seem to be breezed over in other books. Thanks. Drew Falkman > Excellent, Charlie is right on target. I have spent much money picking up > books only to find them inadequate for what I need to do. Perhaps this is a > good opportunity for this community to take the initiative to write a book, > collaboratively, that addresses the need (we have been waiting for that book > that has it all).  In addition, code good examples of actual sites out there ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- While > > books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and > rightly > > so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's not > a > > bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who wants > to > > learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of > course > > folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to its > > credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side > > development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus on > > either "side" of the platform. > > > > On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already know ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- development > > info you may already know--or bear with the author's potential newness to > > web app development (I find a lot of J2EE books fail to suggest or > > demonstrate such simple things as JavaScript, for instance. OK, so one can ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- to ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- it ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- There > > are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in > Java. > > Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE patterns ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- audience > > of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting languages ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- split ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- where ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

I agree with Charlie too, and Jay as well. Finding helpful JSP/Servlet/J2EE/Java books is one thing. Especially if you expect the book to aid in migration from a other server-side technology. Having the community write a book would be great, however it requires a lot of volunteer effort. It was tried by the Esperanto Group, http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jspbook/, but never caught on with support from others. Speaking from experience, there are countless people willing to use the free material, however there are very few willing to contribute. I webmaster over at JSP Insider - http://www.jspinsider.com, and if there is really interest in this project I'll gladly help as well as provide web space. The site already has much code, FAQ and tutorials. Combining it all might make a book itself :) Jayson Falkner jayson@jspinsider.com > Excellent, Charlie is right on target. I have spent much money picking up > books only to find them inadequate for what I need to do. Perhaps this is a > good opportunity for this community to take the initiative to write a book, > collaboratively, that addresses the need (we have been waiting for that book > that has it all).  In addition, code good examples of actual sites out there ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- While > > books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and > rightly > > so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's not > a > > bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who wants > to > > learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of > course > > folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to its > > credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side > > development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus on > > either "side" of the platform. > > > > On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already know ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- development > > info you may already know--or bear with the author's potential newness to > > web app development (I find a lot of J2EE books fail to suggest or > > demonstrate such simple things as JavaScript, for instance. OK, so one can ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- to ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- it ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- There > > are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in > Java. > > Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE patterns ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- audience > > of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting languages ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- split ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- where ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

That's a great offer, Jayson, to host something like this on jspinsider (a useful resource, indeed). It's also a really interesting idea, if you think about it, because while it's hard getting volunteers, we can expand the pool of candidates well beyond just the Jrun list members, to include those using competing java app servers (weblogic, websphere, iplanet, tomcat, etc.)  And of course, it could extend the community of those moving to JSP/servlets to include those coming from ASP/CF/PHP/Perl, etc, maintaining a "generic" focus on what people in that community would need further broadening the pool of potential candidates (and interested readers). Of course, it's no trivial effort. I don't even know that I can get involved right now (have other books already in the pipeline) but this is a subject near and dear to me, and I suspect others. If at least a couple others are interested, maybe we can create a separate mailing list (using some free mailing list feature, if not an HOF one) and take advantage of Jayson's generous offer and at least try to start something. Heck, even if it's just a list of topics, resources, and tips/techniques from the perspective of those "making the move" from other platforms, that could be useful. Any thoughts? /charlie I agree with Charlie too, and Jay as well. Finding helpful JSP/Servlet/J2EE/Java books is one thing. Especially if you expect the book to aid in migration from a other server-side technology. Having the community write a book would be great, however it requires a lot of volunteer effort. It was tried by the Esperanto Group, http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jspbook/, but never caught on with support from others. Speaking from experience, there are countless people willing to use the free material, however there are very few willing to contribute. I webmaster over at JSP Insider - http://www.jspinsider.com, and if there is really interest in this project I'll gladly help as well as provide web space. The site already has much code, FAQ and tutorials. Combining it all might make a book itself :) Jayson Falkner jayson@jspinsider.com > Excellent, Charlie is right on target. I have spent much money picking up > books only to find them inadequate for what I need to do. Perhaps this is a > good opportunity for this community to take the initiative to write a book, > collaboratively, that addresses the need (we have been waiting for that book > that has it all).  In addition, code good examples of actual sites out there ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- While > > books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and > rightly > > so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's not > a > > bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who wants > to > > learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of > course > > folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to its > > credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side > > development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus on > > either "side" of the platform. > > > > On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already know ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- development > > info you may already know--or bear with the author's potential newness to > > web app development (I find a lot of J2EE books fail to suggest or > > demonstrate such simple things as JavaScript, for instance. OK, so one can ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- to ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- it ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- There > > are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in > Java. > > Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE patterns ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- audience > > of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting languages ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- split ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- where ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

I agree, Gunter, and I did commend Marty Hall's book in my note. Indeed, I also took his 5-day seminar, rarely offered publicly, which is also definitely worth getting into if you can (see coreservlets.com for more, including all the examples from his book). Marty's a great guy and an excellent instructor. And you're right that the book does try to explain things, but he and I discussed this point and he agrees that those without a java background would be hard-pressed to really understand it all. Indeed, the book states in the introduction, "Although I don't assume any familiarity with server-side programming, I do expect you to be familiar with the basics of java language development." I guess this goes to another point I only made in passing: sure, you can learn JSP (and maybe even write some servlets) with only a modicum of Java knowledge (and some hand-holding), but gosh you just won't get far before the mysteries of packages, instance versus class data, threading, classpath settings, the lifecycle of objects, and lots of other things (choosing between inheritance and aggregation, interfaces and inner classes, and more) become really challenging. I'm not knocking the value of rising to the challenge. Learning to program in Java will expose you to many nuances and subtleties that often are missed in procedural programming. Such ideas as programming in the "problem space" versus the "solution space", separating "things that change from things that stay the same", implementation hiding, and the simple matter of being forced to do your design up front are all valuable lessons learned that can influence even one's CF or ASP programming. It's just that no one should assert that this stuff will be easy. I'm reminded of a comment by Bruce Eckel in his Hands on Java Seminar, where he quoted someone else who'd said something like "saying java is easier than c++ is like saying k-2 is shorter then Everest (the two largest mountains in the world). Sure, it is, but only by a tiny fraction." For people making the trek up the Java mountain to enterprise-class web applications, I'm just saying be careful who you talk to as you pack your bags and gather your sherpas and fellow climbers. Many a project has "died" before making it to the top for having been misled about the challenge of reaching the summit. /charlie I'm picked up the book "core SERVLETS and JAVAsERVER PAGES" from Marty Hall and find it an excellent book. For reader without Java background, the sample code is explained. If you know Java, reading the code is usually enough. [mailto:JRun-Talk-request@houseoffusion.com]On Behalf Of JRun-Talk Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:51 AM To: JRun-Talk-List@houseoffusion.com Subject: JRun-Talk-List V1 #51 JRun-Talk-List                 Mon, 30 Jul 2001           Volume 1 : Number 51 In this issue:         Re: Learning path         Name/password cannot be different than already specified in properties Message-ID: <DAV14iowsNgiSNdltaO00005d6e@hotmail.com> Excellent, Charlie is right on target. I have spent much money picking up books only to find them inadequate for what I need to do. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for this community to take the initiative to write a book, collaboratively, that addresses the need (we have been waiting for that book that has it all).  In addition, code good examples of actual sites out there (if permitted) can also enhance the learning curve. > Bert, I know you're asking for materials that "aren't just tutorial but also > design and case study", but since others have asked about the general > transition from ASP (or CF, PHP, Perl, etc.) to servlets/JSP, here are some > thoughts that cover a little of all three. Folks really do need to learn > quite a lot to be truly effective: Java, as a base, for sure, and of course > J2EE (servlets, JSP's and EJB's, at least) in general. > > A big challenge, I find, is that the beginning Java books often focus on > teaching client-side Java for a substantial percentage of the book. While > books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and rightly > so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's not a > bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who wants to > learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of course > folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to its > credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side > development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus on > either "side" of the platform. > > On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already know > java but they're generally focused on teaching web app development to those > experienced java programmers. As such, not only must you know Java to really ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- only, > etc. > > Among the more popular resources for server-side development are Core > Servlets and JSP, Professional Java Server Programming J2EE Ed., O'Reilly's > Enterprise JavaBeans, and others. Of course, Sun has its J2EE tutorial > (http://java.sun.com/j2ee/tutorial/index.html), the J2EE Blueprints, and > many other resources. > > At least, in the case of a real walkthrough, the Java Pet Store example from > Sun is a reasonably complete application and the BluePrints book (online and ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Jacquie > Barker's "Beginning Java Objects" (Wrox). While some may argue against it as > a first java book, I think for the right audience it's great for just that. > And this audience may be especially well-suited to its approach. I found no > other book did as good a job at putting OO (programming AND design AND > implementation--and even UML and more) all into perspective. > > Then, there's the whole matter of patterns. You won't get far before > discussions of "observers", "proxies", "factories", "facades" and lots more > start cropping up. Of course, the seminal work is "Design Patterns" from > Gamma, et al (with its distinct C++ focus, though still foundational for all > OO programmers), and one of its co-authors wrote "Pattern Hatching". There > are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in Java. > Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE patterns > covered in a book ("Core J2EE Patterns") and a sun site > (http://java.sun.com/j2ee/blueprints/design_patterns/index.html). > > There's clearly a need in the market for something to address the audience > of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting languages to > JSP/Servlets, etc, especially if they're also new to Java. For now, you have > to pick and choose. > > On the training front, Macromedia's recognized this need with their split of > the former "servlets, jsp and java" class into a new "java for web > developers" class focused on just the kind of core java needed to get > started, then offering "fasttrack to jsp" to cover JSP basics, and a coming > "Building j2ee applications with JRun" class (still in the works) to get > more into JDBC, servlets, javabeans, EJBs, and more. > > Then there are sites like jspinsider.com, jguru.com, theserverside.com, and > others, as well as magazines like Java Developers Journal, Java Pro, and > Java Report. > > I'm sure others will have still more suggested resources, and I'd certainly ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Charles: Thanks for the excellent advise on how to move into Java/JSP, etc. I have read all of the books you mentioned.  My experience with all of this is that had I not taken a Java class, I really would have been stuck. The toughest thing for me was figuring out where files go.  It was a nightmare and I just couldn't get a definitive answer.  I'm doing fine now with JRun.  It really is the easiest to work with over Tomcat. Again, it's definately worth a Java class for anyone going into JSP/Java, JavaBeans, etc. Thanks again for your always worthwhile advise. Yvette Ingram Brainbench Certified ColdFusion 4.5 Programmer Email: ingramrecruiting@erols.com or coldfusion20@hotmail.com, or service@tkisolutions.com ICQ:  21200397 Website:  http://www.tkisolutions.com > I agree, Gunter, and I did commend Marty Hall's book in my note. Indeed, I > also took his 5-day seminar, rarely offered publicly, which is also > definitely worth getting into if you can (see coreservlets.com for more, > including all the examples from his book). Marty's a great guy and an > excellent instructor. And you're right that the book does try to explain > things, but he and I discussed this point and he agrees that those without a ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- classpath > settings, the lifecycle of objects, and lots of other things (choosing > between inheritance and aggregation, interfaces and inner classes, and more) > become really challenging. > > I'm not knocking the value of rising to the challenge. Learning to program > in Java will expose you to many nuances and subtleties that often are missed > in procedural programming. Such ideas as programming in the "problem space" > versus the "solution space", separating "things that change from things that > stay the same", implementation hiding, and the simple matter of being forced > to do your design up front are all valuable lessons learned that can > influence even one's CF or ASP programming. > > It's just that no one should assert that this stuff will be easy. I'm > reminded of a comment by Bruce Eckel in his Hands on Java Seminar, where he > quoted someone else who'd said something like "saying java is easier than > c++ is like saying k-2 is shorter then Everest (the two largest mountains in > the world). Sure, it is, but only by a tiny fraction." > > For people making the trek up the Java mountain to enterprise-class web > applications, I'm just saying be careful who you talk to as you pack your > bags and gather your sherpas and fellow climbers. Many a project has "died" > before making it to the top for having been misled about the challenge of > reaching the summit. > > /charlie > > I'm picked up the book "core SERVLETS and JAVAsERVER PAGES" from Marty Hall ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Number ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- a > good opportunity for this community to take the initiative to write a book, > collaboratively, that addresses the need (we have been waiting for that book > that has it all).  In addition, code good examples of actual sites out there ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- While > > books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and > rightly > > so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's not > a > > bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who wants > to > > learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of > course > > folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to its > > credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side > > development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus on > > either "side" of the platform. > > > > On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already know ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- development > > info you may already know--or bear with the author's potential newness to > > web app development (I find a lot of J2EE books fail to suggest or > > demonstrate such simple things as JavaScript, for instance. OK, so one can ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- to ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- it ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- There > > are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in > Java. > > Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE patterns ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- audience > > of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting languages ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- split ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- where ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Charles: Thanks for the excellent advise on how to move into Java/JSP, etc. I have read all of the books you mentioned.  My experience with all of this is that had I not taken a Java class, I really would have been stuck. The toughest thing for me was figuring out where files go.  It was a nightmare and I just couldn't get a definitive answer.  I'm doing fine now with JRun.  It really is the easiest to work with over Tomcat. Again, it's definately worth a Java class for anyone going into JSP/Java, JavaBeans, etc. Thanks again for your always worthwhile advise. Yvette Ingram Brainbench Certified ColdFusion 4.5 Programmer Email: ingramrecruiting@erols.com or coldfusion20@hotmail.com, or service@tkisolutions.com ICQ:  21200397 Website:  http://www.tkisolutions.com > I agree, Gunter, and I did commend Marty Hall's book in my note. Indeed, I > also took his 5-day seminar, rarely offered publicly, which is also > definitely worth getting into if you can (see coreservlets.com for more, > including all the examples from his book). Marty's a great guy and an > excellent instructor. And you're right that the book does try to explain > things, but he and I discussed this point and he agrees that those without a ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- classpath > settings, the lifecycle of objects, and lots of other things (choosing > between inheritance and aggregation, interfaces and inner classes, and more) > become really challenging. > > I'm not knocking the value of rising to the challenge. Learning to program > in Java will expose you to many nuances and subtleties that often are missed > in procedural programming. Such ideas as programming in the "problem space" > versus the "solution space", separating "things that change from things that > stay the same", implementation hiding, and the simple matter of being forced > to do your design up front are all valuable lessons learned that can > influence even one's CF or ASP programming. > > It's just that no one should assert that this stuff will be easy. I'm > reminded of a comment by Bruce Eckel in his Hands on Java Seminar, where he > quoted someone else who'd said something like "saying java is easier than > c++ is like saying k-2 is shorter then Everest (the two largest mountains in > the world). Sure, it is, but only by a tiny fraction." > > For people making the trek up the Java mountain to enterprise-class web > applications, I'm just saying be careful who you talk to as you pack your > bags and gather your sherpas and fellow climbers. Many a project has "died" > before making it to the top for having been misled about the challenge of > reaching the summit. > > /charlie > > I'm picked up the book "core SERVLETS and JAVAsERVER PAGES" from Marty Hall ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- Number ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- a > good opportunity for this community to take the initiative to write a book, > collaboratively, that addresses the need (we have been waiting for that book > that has it all).  In addition, code good examples of actual sites out there ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- While > > books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and > rightly > > so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's not > a > > bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who wants > to > > learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of > course > > folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to its > > credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side > > development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus on > > either "side" of the platform. > > > > On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already know ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- development > > info you may already know--or bear with the author's potential newness to > > web app development (I find a lot of J2EE books fail to suggest or > > demonstrate such simple things as JavaScript, for instance. OK, so one can ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- to ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- it ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- There > > are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in > Java. > > Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE patterns ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- audience > > of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting languages ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- split ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- where ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

A lot of sites are using Jsp like Backstage.com the thing is a lot of these tutorials only go so far and books so thanks for the advise.Most of the tutorials show you about the language but don't really get into three tier or the big picture at all. Bert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Yeah, JSP books are programming books.  Their not programming logic books.  You're looking more for the structure of the program, not the language.  Once you have that you can pick and choose what language you use.  I prefer Java by far. Matt Wright A lot of sites are using Jsp like Backstage.com the thing is a lot of these tutorials only go so far and books so thanks for the advise.Most of the tutorials show you about the language but don't really get into three tier or the big picture at all. Bert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

There is a book coming out August 15th. Architecting a Servlet and JSP Based Application. I already have books on JSP and Servlets, which I think this is what I need to put it all together and have it in one book. Book is written by Lennart Jorelid. Look it up in Amazon.com to get a description of what's in the book. Jackie On Monday, July 30, 2001 12:07 PM, Jay [SMTP:Run_Jay@hotmail.com] wrote: > Excellent, Charlie is right on target. I have spent much money picking up > books only to find them inadequate for what I need to do. Perhaps this is a > good opportunity for this community to take the initiative to write a book, > collaboratively, that addresses the need (we have been waiting for that book > that has it all).  In addition, code good examples of actual sites out there ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- learn ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- on > > teaching client-side Java for a substantial percentage of the book. While > > books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and > rightly > > so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's not > a > > bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who wants > to > > learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of > course > > folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to its > > credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side > > development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus on > > either "side" of the platform. > > > > On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already know ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- development > > info you may already know--or bear with the author's potential newness to > > web app development (I find a lot of J2EE books fail to suggest or > > demonstrate such simple things as JavaScript, for instance. OK, so one can ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- through ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- and ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- (online ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- to ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- it > as > > a first java book, I think for the right audience it's great for just > that. > > And this audience may be especially well-suited to its approach. I found ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- from > > Gamma, et al (with its distinct C++ focus, though still foundational for > all > > OO programmers), and one of its co-authors wrote "Pattern Hatching". There > > are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in > Java. > > Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE patterns ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- audience > > of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting languages ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- split ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- get ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- and ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- where > > would anyone suggest his or her learning path be any sites out there not > > just to get up to speed or tutorials but to design a site or case study > > using Jsp,Java and Xml etc? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm