Guidelines, Frameworks, Endorsements (was: ColdFusion and the Web Application Market

On May 17, 2004, at 12:30 PM, Jeff Garza wrote: > True that ColdFusion includes more functionality that straight ASP or > ASP.NET, but... Watch out for ASP.NET 2.0 that is currently under > development Watch out for Blackstone that is currently under development :) Seriously, I'm just making the point that Macromedia / ColdFusion isn't standing still either. And Ben Forta is quick to point out that Blackstone may well prove to be the most significant release of ColdFusion so far... > Could you imagine being able to write an entier Intranet Application > from a wizard?  With Authentication and extra Web Service > Widgets?  Tough to beat if you ask me... But you can pretty much already do this with a good CMS anyway. Content-based Intranets are easy to build - applications are the hard part and a decent Intranet has a lot of custom application functionality that no wizard will ever be able to build for you. Don't get too swept up in Microsoft's wild claims. > I agree with you. I think that ASP.NET will become the dominant > platform for web development within the next 5 years in corporate > America. Maybe, maybe not. I think ASP.NET will supplant old ASP - that should be a no-brainer. I think use of Java technologies will continue to grow as the market grows (even if ASP.NET grows faster, there will continue to be a huge amount of Java on the web). > One other point that Microsoft has going for them is their Patterns > and Practices site. The Java community has a huge lead on MS in this area but it's certainly nice to see MS adopting better practice. Interestingly, it appears their C# coding guidelines recommend NOT using Hungarian notation because it causes maintenance problems, according to the Philips C# coding guidelines (which are based on the MS guidelines - I haven't had time to follow up on the MS source document yet). That's something I've been arguing for years and when folks countered my arguments, they usually pointed at past MS practice. I have to admit that C# looks good (although it does some things I really don't like - more on that on my blog in due course) and what I've seen of their coding guidelines quoted in the Philips document is much more in line with what I would consider best practice than what they used to preach... > Macromedia needs to have something like this as well.  I recall the > great debate over whether or not Macromedia was endorsing the use of > Mach-II because they used it on their site...  I found it silly that > they couldn't, as a company, come out and say that yes this works and > this is why... It's definitely a tricky area! I published my team's CFMX coding guidelines on my own website. Then we started adopting Mach II and produced the Mach II Development Guide which also went up on my site. But folks in the community wanted a way to give feedback easily on the documents and someone suggested I use LiveDocs... sounded reasonable so I checked with the documentation team in-house and they had no objections so I moved the two guideline docs to LiveDocs. While most folks were pleased to see the guidelines and be able to give feedback, some people complained that Macromedia should *not* be laying down best practices - something I found rather strange. Then some folks 'noticed' that we were using Mach II on macromedia.com (why would we have written the guidelines otherwise?) and suddenly there was a huge fuss about Macromedia 'endorsing' one framework over all others... Frankly, I was puzzled - on one hand folks were asking Macromedia to provide some guidance and make some recommendations and on the other hand Macromedia was being condemned for picking a framework :( And all this after I'd gone to last year's Fusebox Conference and asked the Fusebox community specifically to submit articles on that framework (thanx go to Kay Smoljak for the sole article submitted so far!). Now I'm touring user groups talking about Mach II and its use at Macromedia - and I'll be at CFUN-04 this year with that talk. What do folks really want from Macromedia? Do they want 'official' coding guidelines? Do they want an 'official' framework recommendation? I make it pretty clear in my Mach II talk that it isn't the right choice for everyone - there are folks out there who are against any sort of framework and they won't be pleased if Macromedia endorses any framework. It seems to me that Macromedia is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. I'd love to hear some discussion on this topic... > Indeed!  Expand your toolset.  Learn Java.  Learn .NET.  It can only > help you down the road. Yes, that's good advice - I've always recommended being multi-lingual... Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/ "There are no solutions, only trade-offs." -- Thomas Sowell

  On May 17, 2004, at 12:30 PM, Jeff Garza wrote:   > True that ColdFusion includes more functionality that straight ASP or   > ASP.NET, but... Watch out for ASP.NET 2.0 that is currently under   > development   Watch out for Blackstone that is currently under development :)   The two pitifully small features of Blackstone that were demonstrated during the WWUG meeting sure got my attention, as it did all the CF developers in our user group.   The "document type - "PDF"  was one of them, and the other was a demonstration in one line of code that renders an interactive form in Flash. (with no prior flash development.)   I guess since these two items were made public, they are no longer under NDA, but they left our developers jumping for more.  In spite of many questions during later Macrochats - the MM folks remained mum.   Thank goodness we will have one more chance to learn about the upcoming product during the Forta Tour in June.   No way will that kind of power be in ASP DOT NET!   ======================================   Our Anti-spam solution works!!   http://www.clickdoug.com/mailfilter.cfm   For hosting solutions http://www.clickdoug.com   http://www.forta.com/cf/isp/isp.cfm?isp_id=1069   ======================================

Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 7:47 PM To: Macromedia-Talk Subject: Guidelines, Frameworks, Endorsements (was: ColdFusion and the Web Application Market On May 17, 2004, at 12:30 PM, Jeff Garza wrote: ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- True, I've been following Blackstone and can't wait to get on the Beta. Each and every successive release of ColdFusion has been a jaw dropping experience for me.  Don't get me wrong... I'm a firm believer in ColdFusion. Ben will be at my usergroup (the Phoenix CFUG) on the 16th of June. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- While true, that is still using a third party app (yes FarCry is free and a damn good system but...) This is completely integrated with the IDE, the Framework and the Server.  Check out some of the improvements to Visual Studio (Whidbey).  It's going to be one of the most amazing IDE's ever produced. (and one that Macromedia should take a cue from when designing the next version of Dreamweaver...) ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- True Java will continue to grow, but I think that MS will probably eat up a steadily bigger slice of the pie, even if the overall pie is getting larger. The good thing for Macromedia is that there will probably be a significant amount of Flash front-ending that larger pie. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I definitely agree with you on this.  Just wish we had something like this from Macromedia.  That would lend more credibility to ColdFusion in general. ----- Excess quoted text cut - see Original Post for more ----- I never understood this myself.. ? <snip> >Now I'm touring user groups talking about Mach II and its use at >Macromedia - and I'll be at CFUN-04 this year with that talk. Sean, if you ever want to come to Phoenix, we'd love to have a talk on Mach-II.  I know that Rob Brooks-Bilson is implementing it at Amkor and there are many others here in the valley considering it (myself included). It has, in a way, become the de facto architecture to use when going OO with CF. >What do folks really want from Macromedia? Do they want 'official' >coding guidelines? Do they want an 'official' framework recommendation? >I make it pretty clear in my Mach II talk that it isn't the right >choice for everyone - there are folks out there who are against any >sort of framework and they won't be pleased if Macromedia endorses any >framework. It seems to me that Macromedia is damned if it does and >damned if it doesn't. I think that Macromedia needs to stand firm and endorse a framework.  No framework will ever be the right thing for all applications, but, at least it will be fully available and fully supported if and when someone wants to use it. Thanks for the response Sean!  You and your team have done a great job with the new Macromedia site!!! Cheers, Jeff Garza Manager, Phoenix CFUG jeff@hawkandheron.com

On May 22, 2004, at 7:05 AM, Jeff Garza wrote: >  While true, that is still using a third party app (yes FarCry is free > and a >  damn good system but...) This is completely integrated with the IDE, > the >  Framework and the Server.  Check out some of the improvements to > Visual >  Studio (Whidbey). Right, and the idea is to lock you in to the vendor's way of doing things and make it hard for third-parties to provide good tools. The likes of FarCry would never be developed for ASP.NET because of MS's everything-including-the-kitchen-sink system. A lot of CFers make their living developing and selling packages to other CFers - I think that's a good thing and I think MS are actually stifling the market with their approach... >  The good thing for Macromedia is that there will probably be a > significant >  amount of Flash front-ending that larger pie. Yes, and a bigger pie means more web work for everyone. >  I definitely agree with you on this.  Just wish we had something like > this >  from Macromedia.  That would lend more credibility to ColdFusion in > general. Really? Would folks really like to see an official "Macromedia ColdFusion Coding Standard"? >  Sean, if you ever want to come to Phoenix, we'd love to have a talk on >  Mach-II.  I know that Rob Brooks-Bilson is implementing it at Amkor > and >  there are many others here in the valley considering it (myself > included). Rob's seen my talk (recently at SDCFUG) and Sean Tierney has too (SCCFUG Winter Conference) but, since I have family in Phoenix, it's a possibility. Talk to Ed Sullivan about it. >  It has, in a way, become the de facto architecture to use when going > OO with >  CF. Yes, it does seem to be heading that way. Of course, the whole issue of whether to go OO or not is still being hotly debated by many CFers... :) >  I think that Macromedia needs to stand firm and endorse a > framework.  No >  framework will ever be the right thing for all applications, but, at > least >  it will be fully available and fully supported if and when someone > wants to >  use it. If Macromedia were to endorse a framework, would you expect Macromedia to own and maintain it (since you talk about "fully supported")? >  Thanks for the response Sean!  You and your team have done a great > job with >  the new Macromedia site!!! Thanx. The Web Team continue to do amazing things with Macromedia's products. I've moved on now - I've taken ColdFusion into the heart of our sales order processing as part of our recently ERP project and now I'm working closely with our CRM team on some upcoming initiatives. Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/ "There are no solutions, only trade-offs." -- Thomas Sowell

>Right, and the idea is to lock you in to the vendor's way of doing >things and make it hard for third-parties to provide good tools. The >likes of FarCry would never be developed for ASP.NET because of MS's >everything-including-the-kitchen-sink system. A lot of CFers make their >living developing and selling packages to other CFers - I think that's >a good thing and I think MS are actually stifling the market with their >approach... This is complete and utter _bullshit_, and I can't believe someone of your position at MM would even say something like this! There's more than one IDE, by different manufacturers!!! There's Mono!! An ASP.NET project is nothing but _text_, for crying out loud, and there's _nothing_ that would prevent, say MM, from implementing _everything_ that VS.NET does!  Other companies have already! Do you know what DotNetNuke is?  My God. As for FarCry, it uses IE specific features, so please spare me the rhetoric. Yeesh...

There's been no traffic on this list since May. Why are you suddenly posting such unpleasant responses to these old, old emails? Did something happen to you recently to cause this flurry of nastiness? If you don't want to do ColdFusion any more, why bother sending us all this venom Kwang? On Dec 10, 2004, at 2:04 PM, Kwang Suh wrote: > This is complete and utter _bullshit_

Yeah, I was wondering why I couldn't find any of these old messages... I've only been on here since August. -Blaine the Web Application Market There's been no traffic on this list since May. Why are you suddenly posting such unpleasant responses to these old, old emails? Did something happen to you recently to cause this flurry of nastiness? If you don't want to do ColdFusion any more, why bother sending us all this venom Kwang? On Dec 10, 2004, at 2:04 PM, Kwang Suh wrote: > This is complete and utter _bullshit_

Have been reading this thread and these are my answers on framework. First I have looked at fusebox, although it got hailed as the best thing since sliced bread. I had been developing my own framework that was very similar well before fusebox was announced, it was faster less code and easier for a developer to understand and use. Then came mach-II, I was impressed still a lot of code for something little but still impressed. But still this did not fit into any of the sites we had developer here, and will not be used so we continue with our own framework. Now if mach-II became a standard framework, then I would not use it as would a lot of developers down here. But I would use it in some cases just not some of the work we do for intranets etc. A framework is a guide to those developers, not a institution that should be adhered to as the only way to develop. Sean, the biggest problem with coldfusion is that is has lost ground with companies all over. I recall the days in Australia were Allaire were doing roadshows all the time to promote the product to potential clients and making them aware that there is a better alternative to Microsoft. Microsoft do this all the time, and gain more ground this way. So if Macromedia was to concentrate more on something, then this would be it. In Australia it is not enough to put it into the market and let it fight for survival, the job market shows it is loosing a battle here. Macromedia needs to show that it is in it for the long haul with this product, when the jobs in Australia start increasing then I know that Coldfusion is alive again. Just my .02 worth Regards Andrew Scott Technical Consultant NuSphere Pty Ltd Level 2/33 Bank Street South Melbourne, Victoria, 3205 Phone: 03 9686 0485  -  Fax: 03 9699 7976